3x Torp Scouts definitely have that Velveeta factor to them.

I remember Regionals 2015. I was a new player, wet around the ears, brought an awful, awful list. I walked around to look at the competition. A few fat hans. some decis. 4BZ. Imp Aces. CorranDash. 3Xs. So many more than i could name. So much variety, no one list really had a majority.

Now, out of 65 players, 20 or so will have the exact same U-Boats list, 25 will have some variation on Palp Aces, and the 20 remaining people will have the miscellaneous lists. This is my experience this tournament season, and exactly why i have avoided future tournaments until it changes. I intensely dislike the sheer lack of variety more than anything. I'm not going to say anything about whether it takes skill or doesnt, because frankly it's not really my place to decide, especially since i have never flown these lists.

What i am saying, is that this meta has no variety. The Palp Aces list or the U-Boats list will, 9 times out of 10, win any given tournament, something we have seen at every System Open thus far, where the Top 8 has ALWAYS consisted of Palp Aces and U-Boats, with one errant slot for any other list like that one Poe list at the first System Open, or the TIE Swarm that just won the most recent one. No matter what you believe, this simply isn't cool. It's considered an upset when something that isnt Palp or U-Boats wins a tournament. How can anyone think that this is healthy for the game?

I remember Regionals 2015. I was a new player, wet around the ears, brought an awful, awful list. I walked around to look at the competition. A few fat hans. some decis. 4BZ. Imp Aces. CorranDash. 3Xs. So many more than i could name. So much variety, no one list really had a majority.

Now, out of 65 players, 20 or so will have the exact same U-Boats list, 25 will have some variation on Palp Aces, and the 20 remaining people will have the miscellaneous lists. This is my experience this tournament season, and exactly why i have avoided future tournaments until it changes. I intensely dislike the sheer lack of variety more than anything. I'm not going to say anything about whether it takes skill or doesnt, because frankly it's not really my place to decide, especially since i have never flown these lists.

What i am saying, is that this meta has no variety. The Palp Aces list or the U-Boats list will, 9 times out of 10, win any given tournament, something we have seen at every System Open thus far, where the Top 8 has ALWAYS consisted of Palp Aces and U-Boats, with one errant slot for any other list like that one Poe list at the first System Open, or the TIE Swarm that just won the most recent one. No matter what you believe, this simply isn't cool. It's considered an upset when something that isnt Palp or U-Boats wins a tournament. How can anyone think that this is healthy for the game?

But... U-Boats was only possible like... a few months ago. How many events do you go to??

I remember Regionals 2015. I was a new player, wet around the ears, brought an awful, awful list. I walked around to look at the competition. A few fat hans. some decis. 4BZ. Imp Aces. CorranDash. 3Xs. So many more than i could name. So much variety, no one list really had a majority.

Now, out of 65 players, 20 or so will have the exact same U-Boats list, 25 will have some variation on Palp Aces, and the 20 remaining people will have the miscellaneous lists. This is my experience this tournament season, and exactly why i have avoided future tournaments until it changes. I intensely dislike the sheer lack of variety more than anything. I'm not going to say anything about whether it takes skill or doesnt, because frankly it's not really my place to decide, especially since i have never flown these lists.

What i am saying, is that this meta has no variety. The Palp Aces list or the U-Boats list will, 9 times out of 10, win any given tournament, something we have seen at every System Open thus far, where the Top 8 has ALWAYS consisted of Palp Aces and U-Boats, with one errant slot for any other list like that one Poe list at the first System Open, or the TIE Swarm that just won the most recent one. No matter what you believe, this simply isn't cool. It's considered an upset when something that isnt Palp or U-Boats wins a tournament. How can anyone think that this is healthy for the game?

But... U-Boats was only possible like... a few months ago. How many events do you go to??

There's like, 5 places i can go to for tournaments near me. My local store, and 3-4 other stores within driving range. I went to 4 tournaments, one of them a regional, and then decided that unless it was a tournament structure that was unique like escalation or something else that's fun first, competitive second, that i was done with tournament play for a while.

I think I was a little harsh in my original statement (not much sleep so cranky lol)

I don't like uBoats, that much is correct, but I don't like what they have done to the game.

One thing I really don't like is how they seem to have taken the role that bombers should be playing.

I've found with Imperial veterans, your still better off going uBoats over the bomber for many reasons

UBoats dial vs bomber dial.

4 shields 5 hull, 9 total hp vs 6 hull on the bomber

Both have two dice, but again due to lack of shields the bombers take a lot of crits.

UBoats have better action economy vs bombers.

Unlike bombers uBoats don't need a escorting ship in order to help make it work, such as Jonus

BTW I'm comparing generics not the named pilots.

I still believe what some may think that the uBoats do require less skill.

Some skill is required, but not as heavily as others.

Tie swarms require a lot of skill imo.

You usually want stay in formation, block, which also means guessing where your opponent is going to go.

Aces despite what para thinks, they do require skill.

Yes they can reposition after everything moves, but you really need to think 1

2-3 turns ahead.

Get caught in a bad spot, and you can't boost/barrel roll, not to mention, one slight miscalculation means you bump or hit a rock which is the death of ships with 3 hp

Also give a new player a tripple uBoat list, and then a palmobile ace list, or swarm, let him fly 4 games and see which he win more.

I believe he'd win more with uBoats.

It requires skill, but nowhere near as much as other lists out there

It's still here guys

U BOATS REQUIRE SKILL IF YOU WANT TO WIN A LARGE TOURNAMENT

1. Krynn007, you misread my comment in your reply - I said if you're losing to a U-Boat list, there are 2 reasons - either you don't know how to beat U-Boats or your opponent has enough skill to outplay you. I didn't say you had (regardless of how much your hate makes me think you're salty about losing too much).

2. IF U-Boats are the only option to win in the meta, then the tournaments will find the most skilled player to win. A shame we don't see more variety, but oh well, I thought regionals+ were for finding the best player?

3. Top 8 in a 100+ player tournament is no way of looking at what will do well. There were a variety of lists at Yavin, includinfg 4 HWKS which went 6-3 (6-0 on day 1). And, while we're on the topic...

Worlds 2015 Top 8

* 4 Rebel regen (Poe/Corran/Miranda)

* 2 Palp Aces

* 1 Brobots

* 1 4x TLT

Yavin Open 2016 Top 8

* 1 Crack Swarm

* 4 Aces of some kind - Not all had Palpatine but I can't get the exact lists

* 3 Multi-Jumpmasters, some 3JM, some 2JM+x.

Not that much less variety it seems. And the bigger issue would appear to be Imperial Aces - but NOOO! That list requires "skill" whereas jumpmasters are just point, focus & shoot! Of course that's it - but if you refuse to watch the winners of big tournaments because they play Jumpmasters, you won't see how good a player they are, and how they have skill with the list.

I acknowledged that Jumpmasters are slightly unbalanced - a matter of 25 to 26points - but they aren't so broken as for you to insult people using them, and circlejerking about how horrible they are on here. If you fly well against U-Boats you can beat them - a lot more easily than getting Soontir in arc at close range.

I don't understand all the fuss, I have yet to lose to 3 scouts and have regularly beaten the crap out of them and even made a bunch of Them cry.

In fact, the only time 3 scouts even stood a chance was when one of the Girl Guides with them called the police. Squealers.

That sir, is a fine way to reach your century

I did a quick analysis of the 40-player Regional I went to, and Triple Scouts scored much higher on average than all other lists, including Palp Aces. Which to me is a sign that Triple Scouts are easier to fly. All four Regionals in the Netherlands were won by Triple Jumpmasters.

I just got done with our local regional. Out of the seven games I played two were palp aces and three were u-boats. The U-boats killed all the old counters to palp aces. The meta is still pretty new and people are only now developing new lists that have game against both u-boats and palp aces. Ive personally had luck with omega leader, wampa, 4 X crackshot blacks. I saw a Biggs,Wes,Corran list that looks like it would have major game against them too. Biggs with R4-D6 integrated astromech is pretty money against an alpha strike list like that. A five Awing list with crackshot and adaptability has solid game against both lists as well.

I've only started playing competitively since January but have been playing for a long time before. I've had time to analyse why I dislike the j15k list so much and I think it comes down to the mixture of 'point and click' and being a skill-list (shock-horror).

It has an incredibly powerful and reliable opening that unless played into excellently or teched against directly will likely delete a key piece of the opposing list for maybe half a ship in return. After this exchange you still have 3 large bases with a strong dial and barrel roll, which is incredibly good in the hands of a skilled player for throwing blocks; it's a lot of board coverage against higher PS and it's a lot of firepower against lower PS. In the hands of a skilled player this combination allows them to gain the upper hand, then provides them with the tools to push home the win. I've played against some very, very good players who use J15K and I've beaten a fair few, but I had to play the games of my life to do so; but still got knocked out eventually by a J15K list. I can understand both sides of debate, but I definitely sympathise with those who get drawn against them round after round at tournaments (especially a friend who lost to them 3 times in Yavin then drew against them again the first round of the hangar bay event). At the end of the day it is noticeable that the majority of players running J15K place significantly higher than there previous tournament averages.

There will always be hate to new stuff that wins list by just spamming the same unit, I've seen this in so many games.

My problem with 3 u-boats is just the same as the quad tlt. It's pretty boring fluffvise and they take too much advantage with the secondary weapons ignore range bonus rule. This was fine when secondary weapons were semi efficient but with torps getting almost 4 guaranteed hits or tlt throwing 6 dice at you the ignore range band rule is a bit to much powerful and takes away the natural conterplay with distance.

This is list isn't easy god mode that wins everytournament but it is a annoying list to go up against since the deadye + guidence chips is very hard to counter, if at all possible for alot of lists.

I for one is just as tired of people claming palp aces are so much "skill", Yeah going at pilot skill 9 with an intecerpor dial and getting to react with 3 actions is so very much "skill".

It's still here guys

U BOATS REQUIRE SKILL IF YOU WANT TO WIN A LARGE TOURNAMENT

1. Krynn007, you misread my comment in your reply - I said if you're losing to a U-Boat list, there are 2 reasons - either you don't know how to beat U-Boats or your opponent has enough skill to outplay you. I didn't say you had (regardless of how much your hate makes me think you're salty about losing too much).

2. IF U-Boats are the only option to win in the meta, then the tournaments will find the most skilled player to win. A shame we don't see more variety, but oh well, I thought regionals+ were for finding the best player?

3. Top 8 in a 100+ player tournament is no way of looking at what will do well. There were a variety of lists at Yavin, includinfg 4 HWKS which went 6-3 (6-0 on day 1). And, while we're on the topic...

Worlds 2015 Top 8

* 4 Rebel regen (Poe/Corran/Miranda)

* 2 Palp Aces

* 1 Brobots

* 1 4x TLT

Yavin Open 2016 Top 8

* 1 Crack Swarm

* 4 Aces of some kind - Not all had Palpatine but I can't get the exact lists

* 3 Multi-Jumpmasters, some 3JM, some 2JM+x.

Not that much less variety it seems. And the bigger issue would appear to be Imperial Aces - but NOOO! That list requires "skill" whereas jumpmasters are just point, focus & shoot! Of course that's it - but if you refuse to watch the winners of big tournaments because they play Jumpmasters, you won't see how good a player they are, and how they have skill with the list.

I acknowledged that Jumpmasters are slightly unbalanced - a matter of 25 to 26points - but they aren't so broken as for you to insult people using them, and circlejerking about how horrible they are on here. If you fly well against U-Boats you can beat them - a lot more easily than getting Soontir in arc at close range.

Read my previous statement next page statement.

Also where have I insulted anyone?

Point out my posts and highlight the area where I specifically insulted someone.

Saying I won't go easy against a tripple uBoat player, new or experienced isn't insulting.

Saying I don't like the list, or saying it requires less skill isn't insulting anyone.

You new to the game and want to really do well, it's probably the best thing to use as much as I'd hate to say it.

If you been playing for a month or three, going with a swarm, or tripple ace list isn't probably going to get you the results you hope for.

I already corrected myself in my previous post, but ask yourself, why do so many take uBoats?

They all can't win, but people feel safe with then.

They can't die from one attack.

They can kill something in one attack. Very easily.

When you have 100 players and 20 are basically all the same build, you think everyone of them are skilled players?

I'm not insulting anyone, but truthfully they probably are not, which is why they took the safety net, and the ones that are skilles, are the ones who will win.

But even 20 unskilled players taking uBoats some are going to do well.

It does make for boring games.

Even when I'm against a palmobile ace list it is more fun than tripple uBoats.

I flew the uBoat build once and just like the time I flew quad TLT against my friend once, it was such a boring game, and I really felt bad for my opponent who was not ready for it.

Even as I played I was rooting for my opponent to win, which should not be the way lol

Lol

I was hoping to see better "fair game" attitude here rather than so many people crying about it.

All I have to say that Uboat is good ship and rather than complaining about it, maybe should use that energy for overcome the list. Finally ordnances are good in game that was something people wanted to get fixed, but now it ain't good either. Super Dash was dominating or Fat Han and now they are gone, that ain't good either, the thing is that iy is impossible to satisfy all of ya, but I am darn happy with scum finally getting actually around in tournaments and after all Uboats are not winning that much anyways. I am way more impressed by Zuckuss with two Uboats..

U-Boats and Quad-TLT are point and shoot. I don't feel winning with them deserve much praise. U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

Thought the same, took UUU and got a mirror-match

was wiped like a kid, because distance is king and it's still 3 big based ships with asteroid and block issues.

so nope, you're wrong on "skilless"

skilless is palp aces, making evades out of thin air and operating with exact positioning knowledge.

U-Boats and Quad-TLT are point and shoot. I don't feel winning with them deserve much praise. U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

Thought the same, took UUU and got a mirror-match

was wiped like a kid, because distance is king and it's still 3 big based ships with asteroid and block issues.

so nope, you're wrong on "skilless"

skilless is palp aces, making evades out of thin air and operating with exact positioning knowledge.

I disagree. You have to plan all the correct moves, plan for bumps, and think several turns ahead. One wrong move and your ace is squished. U-boats just go 'oh, white sloop'. One 8-point card does not make a list easy. As for generating evades from thin air, U-boats do the same with hits. Shooting, with a free target lock (or another focus), changing a blank to a hit and an eye to a crit. That's conjuring.

And being 'wiped like a kid' by U-boats, is not an argument to say 'U-boats are hard to use'

U-Boats and Quad-TLT are point and shoot. I don't feel winning with them deserve much praise. U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

Thought the same, took UUU and got a mirror-match

was wiped like a kid, because distance is king and it's still 3 big based ships with asteroid and block issues.

so nope, you're wrong on "skilless"

skilless is palp aces, making evades out of thin air and operating with exact positioning knowledge.

I disagree. You have to plan all the correct moves, plan for bumps, and think several turns ahead. One wrong move and your ace is squished. U-boats just go 'oh, white sloop'. One 8-point card does not make a list easy. As for generating evades from thin air, U-boats do the same with hits. Shooting, with a free target lock (or another focus), changing a blank to a hit and an eye to a crit. That's conjuring.

And being 'wiped like a kid' by U-boats, is not an argument to say 'U-boats are hard to use'

If its so easy as "oh, white sloop", then it should also be fairly obvious when theyre going to do it. So just....fly into range of of

The white sloop or bug out past range 3.

U-Boats and Quad-TLT are point and shoot. I don't feel winning with them deserve much praise. U-Boats practically guaranteeing 4 hits with torps doesn't take skill.

Thought the same, took UUU and got a mirror-match

was wiped like a kid, because distance is king and it's still 3 big based ships with asteroid and block issues.

so nope, you're wrong on "skilless"

skilless is palp aces, making evades out of thin air and operating with exact positioning knowledge.

I disagree. You have to plan all the correct moves, plan for bumps, and think several turns ahead. One wrong move and your ace is squished. U-boats just go 'oh, white sloop'. One 8-point card does not make a list easy. As for generating evades from thin air, U-boats do the same with hits. Shooting, with a free target lock (or another focus), changing a blank to a hit and an eye to a crit. That's conjuring.

And being 'wiped like a kid' by U-boats, is not an argument to say 'U-boats are hard to use'

2-hard-green-PTL-rinse-repeat

Uboats feel oddly similar to Brobots, but much less forgiving and much MUCH more predictable, and you have to line up all three torp-volleys in a single round because otherwise you're screwed.

It means getting three large-based ships into R3 conditions AND still have a plan for the next turn when things gt ugly and you get yourself at R1 where you can simply stick the torp up the toilet seat.

If you can't make it happen you're done for. No second chance, no chance in late game. It's an alpha strike squad and if you DON'T make it, go home. 2 primary attack.

It is clear that you need skill to win with U-boats. But it is also clear that it is by far the easiest competitive list. By far. You don't take a normal list and make it top with your skills.

Imp aces have a very low margin of error.

Oh silly me. Here I thought they were a top tier that lots of people took, did well with and dominated tournaments, even though it's only been out for 3 months.

How wrong I was. I have been shown the error of my ways and will repent. Oh great and bountiful lords of X-Wing, how sorry I am to think U-boats were anything more than terrible. I will cleanse the stain on my soul by sacrificing to you, 5 of the scrubbiest palp-ace players I can find. Assuming I can get them in arc.

Imp aces simply hate playing against prophet-level blockers. Nothing fancy.

It's not your skill that matters, it's his skill that does.

Poor poor Empire, UUU winning everything left and right!
*gets into the thread for some recent tournament results to see if the HYPE is anywhere near real

Hoth

• Contracted Scout + Deadeye + Guidance Chips + Plasma Torpedo + OCR4
• Contracted Scout + Deadeye + Guidance Chips + Plasma Torpedo + OCR4 + EM
• Contracted Scout + Deadeye + Guidance Chips + Proton Torpedo + R4 + EM + Boba Fett

Jakku

• Soontir Fel + PtL + title + SD + AT
• Inquisitor + PtL + title + AT + proton rockets
• Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

Endor

• Omega Leader + Comm Relay + Juke
• Inquisitor + PtL + title + AT
• Wampa
• Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine

Yavin

• Howlrunner + Crackshot
• 3x Black Squadron Pilot + Crackshot
• 3x Academy Pilots

No hate, just very very boring to play against. Four out of nine competitive matches played against being triple Jumpmasters since Wave 8 released... Eh... That's not diversity.

Is the same thing with the infamous 4-ywing TLT list.

It´s too easy to fly them, and probably against a normal list, the 3 jumpmasters ony have to move and shot, while the other player have to think carefully the movements each turn.

It´s almost sad when you see people flying swarms, 4 xwings, z´s, mixed list etc playing against the 3 jumpmasters (or the 4 ywings), and the rival says "I only move and throw dices, very easy".

No one game should reach to that point, it´s a pity

I don't really mind the list not requiring much skill.

I do, however, mind the lack of ship variety caused by the list, especially compared to pre-wave 8 when virtually anything could be flown effectively.

I think it's fairly clear that Palp Aces lists are stronger than U-boats in the current meta . U-boats get the hate because they are easy to understand and use well. They are also more forgiving because of the PWTs and great dial. Palp Aces are dominating and people are probably sick of seeing them by now. They don't get the hate because most seem to understand that it is less forgiving to fly and can fail spectacularly with a single mistake or even just bad luck. Case in point: see the lone Academy Pilot one shot Fel early in the Madrid final . That couldn't happen to a U-boat.

The other thing I am noticing is that U-boats seem to do better when you don't take 3. Mixing in something else seems to boost the list. The Maryland regional just ended with a Palp Aces list (Fel, Inky and Palp shuttle) beating a 2 U-Boat and Zuckuss list.

Full disclosure: I don't fly Palp Aces or U-boats. I fly swarms.

Idea: The hyper defense of Palp Aces and Regen ships makes the hyper offense of Jumpmasters and Crackshot swarms a necessity.