No-one wins with jumpmasters in big tournaments purely because it's 'easy mode'. No-one wins in a big tournament with any list purely because of the list. Sure, you can take it to your 16 player game night and come out on top because everyone was running generic E wings and Expose-interceptors but at the top level (like the Yavin open - won by the Pattiswarm - or Regionals) you win because of 3 things.

1. Player skill

2. List composition

3. Luck

The Triple Jumps appear at the top of tournaments often because they remove (some of) the luck and they are a good list in a vacuum. They also can be forgiving - but only against unskilled opponents.

However, the players who fly them have to be good at the game to actually win. Contrary to what the belief seems to be here you can't just walk into your game store, buy 3 JMs and get top spot at a regional. You need to have a solid understanding of Joust-wing & the rule of 11, be able to estimate range well, plan to avoid bumping when your opponent can do so easily, deal with awkward asteroid placements & feints in opponent deployment, have a plan to deal with aces and crackswarms (and have a thick skin to ignore all the comments about how you're winning easy mode).

I think the Jumpmaster is 1 point undercosted because it just brings it into the region of 3 fully-kitted JMs coming in at under 100, which was a design oversight caused by the designers not wanting to see another Wild Space Fringer appear, and going too far the other way.

If you want respect, fly something with skill.

I know one thing for certain. If I see a tripple uBoat player I'm going to be a lot more strict on the miss opportunities rule vs someone flying something that requires a lot more skill.

Since your flying an easy mode list, all you have to do is remember to focus. If you can't remember that much you don't deserve to win, and I'm not going to hand it over to Ya that easily.

This is a disgusting attitude and makes you much worse than any player flying 3Jumps - Oh no! They fly a list I don't like! I hate them and they don't deserve anything!

edit - are you saying that you give non UBoat players easy wins? Or that UBoats beat you easily.

Where's JBR7's bad post image when you need it?

As I said above, you're either flying against a highly skilled player, or failing to capitalise on their weaknesses when you lose to a triple jump list.

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All that has occurred with 3JMs is the skill-bar has dropped. What I mean by this, is that instead of poorly designed and quirky lists going to the medium-high spots in tournaments but being pushed out by Palp-Aces/Rebel regen/Swarms, you have these lists being removed by triple Jumpmasters because if you don't know how to play against them, they're a hard list to beat. Hence, instead of seeing variety in the middle of the table, you see good players flying OK lists, and OK players flying good lists - namely Jumpmasters as they're all the rage. At the top of the tables, you get good players and good lists - one of which is U boats.

Skill is still the requirement to win tournaments and Jumpmasters hasn't done this. All I can say is, I hope that Paul Heaver takes Jumpmasters to a 4th worlds win and wait to see you accusing him of being skill-less and playing 'easy mode'.

Honestly I've flown it once to see how it was for myself, and just like the quad TLT I hate it

Second I've not lost to it, so your wrong on both your assumptions.

I dont like the list.

Nothing wrong with not letting my opponent at a regional not get his action if he missed it. I've always let my opponent at least take the focus action by default if he missed his action.

But in a list that guarantees 4 hits if you focus, well that's too bad so sad, life goes on

Your flying a list that requires you to remember a Focus. That's all you have to do. move focus.

I won't rush you, I'll even wait to see, is he going to focus.

After some time if he's not doing anything, and I ask are you ready, and he says yes, and we start attacking, then after everything is done and its his turn and he says oh I should have a Focus, well that's kind of too bad at that point.

You forgot the most important aspect of your list and was just one thing

I'm that way with any list anyway, but can be more little more lenient if my opponent is flying something that had a lot of mechanics and things to remember

What's disgusting is your assumption.

If I go to an event like a regional I tend to be at top of my game with what I'm using.

I expect you to be as well.

Sorry but skilled players don't fly tripple uBoats and win.

They fly jake, coran, duel aggressors. Pal aces, tripple kwings, Zuckuss, whisper, jax, poe.

Getting to the top flying something like that requires skill.

Not move, focus, get 4 hits. Rinse repeat

And what's disgusting is your ability to judge me as a person by simply playing by the rules.

I'm not judging the player who's flying it.

I just don't like their list and am not going to go easy on it.

Unlike you, I won't judge a person based off plastic ships, and actually Im very likeable =)

Edit

I'll correct myself tripple uBoats do require some skill

If out of 64 players you the only one who brings it and win, you probably have skill, but that's not usually the case.

I could be wrong but I don't recall anyone being the only one taking a tripple uBoat and winning the entire thing.

It's when out of 64 players, 20 took tripple uBoats.

There's a very good chance someone may win. Instead you had the best skill out of all the uBoats players

My argument against "You have to have skills to win with Triple-U at big tournamnts"

Not really, because there are so many of the triple U-boat list that the chances are good that one will succeed. It's not like it is the same player always winning, the only thing you remember "it was a triple U-boat". There are just everywhere.

It's not like the player are not skilled at all, bit you need SIGNIFICANTLY less skill to succeed with Uboats.

Just the same old "it's the new hot squad, let's belittle it as much as possible because I'm so cool". it is a new squad that made it difficult for old squads to remain top squads. Thus it must me easy mode, because damnit, if it wasn't I shouldn't have been force to change squads/tactics.

Dismissing any top squad as "easy mode" is just a sign that you aren't really worth paying attention to when discussing the meta.

Look, I see where you're coming from, however surely the game is a more interesting place when people can be as diverse as possible when making their lists? The question at hand is not 'have we traded an old meta for a new meta', but rather has the presence of this list diminished the diversity within whatever meta we have at this moment,

I have to stress again, the 3xJM list is not unbeatable. It can get trounced by skilled pilots with other lists, the issue is rather that it appears to be an extremely forgiving list to mistakes. Because of this, diversity in the overall meta appears to have diminished.

This is certainly a common issue in this game. Players tend to praise winning with certain lists over others, even going as far as to demoralize players who win events with certain lists.

More praise is fine, but we shouldnt be making people feel bad for using certain ships/upgrades. In general we just shouldnt be making people feel bad!

Secondly, players tend to purposely ignore a main point when then they give out this praise or contempt. If all players are using strong lists, then player skill suddenly comes back as the driving force. Palp Aces, CrackSwarm, UBoats, solid Ghost lists and other strong "meta" lists. Right now if all players show up with some form of these lists, every player walks in with an equally strong list and equally strong chance to win, making earning that win equally as praise-worthy.

Just the same old "it's the new hot squad, let's belittle it as much as possible because I'm so cool". it is a new squad that made it difficult for old squads to remain top squads. Thus it must me easy mode, because damnit, if it wasn't I shouldn't have been force to change squads/tactics.

Dismissing any top squad as "easy mode" is just a sign that you aren't really worth paying attention to when discussing the meta.

Look, I see where you're coming from, however surely the game is a more interesting place when people can be as diverse as possible when making their lists? The question at hand is not 'have we traded an old meta for a new meta', but rather has the presence of this list diminished the diversity within whatever meta we have at this moment,

I have to stress again, the 3xJM list is not unbeatable. It can get trounced by skilled pilots with other lists, the issue is rather that it appears to be an extremely forgiving list to mistakes. Because of this, diversity in the overall meta appears to have diminished.

TIE Swarm: No skill

Double Falcons: No skill

BBBB: No skill

Phantom: No skill

Turrets: No skill

Rebel Regen: No skill

Imp Aces: No skill

Jumpmasters: No skill

Anything that is the gatekeeper and popular will get called "No skill" or "Easy Mode". And yet, when I've watched these games, there was great evidence of good flying from the winners. If you want to belittle those squads and the players that use them, can't really stop you. But winning a major tournament with them doesn't change the fact that is still a very good player.

And there has been some amazingly creative lists that have been doing well.

Is it possible to beat a three jump list with BBBBZ?

Just the same old "it's the new hot squad, let's belittle it as much as possible because I'm so cool". it is a new squad that made it difficult for old squads to remain top squads. Thus it must me easy mode, because damnit, if it wasn't I shouldn't have been force to change squads/tactics.

Dismissing any top squad as "easy mode" is just a sign that you aren't really worth paying attention to when discussing the meta.

Look, I see where you're coming from, however surely the game is a more interesting place when people can be as diverse as possible when making their lists? The question at hand is not 'have we traded an old meta for a new meta', but rather has the presence of this list diminished the diversity within whatever meta we have at this moment,

I have to stress again, the 3xJM list is not unbeatable. It can get trounced by skilled pilots with other lists, the issue is rather that it appears to be an extremely forgiving list to mistakes. Because of this, diversity in the overall meta appears to have diminished.

TIE Swarm: No skill

Double Falcons: No skill

BBBB: No skill

Phantom: No skill

Turrets: No skill

Rebel Regen: No skill

Imp Aces: No skill

Jumpmasters: No skill

Anything that is the gatekeeper and popular will get called "No skill" or "Easy Mode". And yet, when I've watched these games, there was great evidence of good flying from the winners. If you want to belittle those squads and the players that use them, can't really stop you. But winning a major tournament with them doesn't change the fact that is still a very good player.

And there has been some amazingly creative lists that have been doing well.

As you've quoted my post I can only assume you're addressing me on this. You have constructed a strawman argument out of what I've said to refute it.

I never called the 3xJM "easy mode". I said it was dangerously close, and I have not and do not belittle players for the lists that they play. I agreed with you that it lowered the skill bar, and as a consequence the meta has diminished in diversity in that each list *must* take this list into consideration when listbuilding, which I believe is the kind of reactionary direction we wish to avoid.

There was one triple Jumpmaster list in Fargo and it went 3-3. There were plenty of other jumpmasters though.

I wonder what will happen when you can bring two along with a top tier ace near the end of the year...

Is it possible to beat a three jump list with BBBBZ?

it's really not likely unless your asteroid placement funnels them into a position where the z's 4-foward can block one

TIE Swarm: No skill

Double Falcons: No skill

BBBB: No skill

Phantom: No skill

Turrets: No skill

Rebel Regen: No skill

Imp Aces: No skill

Jumpmasters: No skill

Tie Swarm - def requires skills. All those bumps, my god.

Double Falcons - Meh, bit cheesy but not too bad. Fat Han - not a lot of skill.

BBBB - Skill. It has arcs and a rubbishy dial, clearly needs skill.

Phantom - Very powerful, but needs skill. Takes work to get the right decloak etc.

Turrets - Pretty lame. I'm OK with most turrets, but quad TLT is no skill.

Rebel Regen - Skill, because it ruins your movement (this is my go to list BTW)

Imp Aces - Lots of skill

Trip-Jumps - No Skill.

That's my opinion anyway. Especially anything that requires arc dodging.

Just the same old "it's the new hot squad, let's belittle it as much as possible because I'm so cool". it is a new squad that made it difficult for old squads to remain top squads. Thus it must me easy mode, because damnit, if it wasn't I shouldn't have been force to change squads/tactics.

Dismissing any top squad as "easy mode" is just a sign that you aren't really worth paying attention to when discussing the meta.

Look, I see where you're coming from, however surely the game is a more interesting place when people can be as diverse as possible when making their lists? The question at hand is not 'have we traded an old meta for a new meta', but rather has the presence of this list diminished the diversity within whatever meta we have at this moment,

I have to stress again, the 3xJM list is not unbeatable. It can get trounced by skilled pilots with other lists, the issue is rather that it appears to be an extremely forgiving list to mistakes. Because of this, diversity in the overall meta appears to have diminished.

TIE Swarm: No skill

Double Falcons: No skill

BBBB: No skill

Phantom: No skill

Turrets: No skill

Rebel Regen: No skill

Imp Aces: No skill

Jumpmasters: No skill

Anything that is the gatekeeper and popular will get called "No skill" or "Easy Mode". And yet, when I've watched these games, there was great evidence of good flying from the winners. If you want to belittle those squads and the players that use them, can't really stop you. But winning a major tournament with them doesn't change the fact that is still a very good player.

And there has been some amazingly creative lists that have been doing well.

I guess you are a Triple-U-boat player? For all the listed squads you need a lot of skill. It's not even comparable to U-boats. Especially against U-boats.

As you've quoted my post I can only assume you're addressing me on this. You have constructed a strawman argument out of what I've said to refute it.

I never called the 3xJM "easy mode". I said it was dangerously close, and I have not and do not belittle players for the lists that they play. I agreed with you that it lowered the skill bar, and as a consequence the meta has diminished in diversity in that each list *must* take this list into consideration when listbuilding, which I believe is the kind of reactionary direction we wish to avoid.

There is always going to be gatekeeper squads, squads that must be taken into consideration when planning for a major tournament. At the simplest, it is merely determining what is the most popular. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. And as time has gone on, the meta has adapted. Sure, it is still mainly Palp Aces and Jumpmasters, but some amazingly interesting squads have snuck into the cuts. Something is always going to be popular, so I find it more interesting looking at the outliers. Personally, the Party Bus is the most interesting thing that is developing for Scum.

Tie Swarm - def requires skills. All those bumps, my god.

Double Falcons - Meh, bit cheesy but not too bad. Fat Han - not a lot of skill.

BBBB - Skill. It has arcs and a rubbishy dial, clearly needs skill.

Phantom - Very powerful, but needs skill. Takes work to get the right decloak etc.

Turrets - Pretty lame. I'm OK with most turrets, but quad TLT is no skill.

Rebel Regen - Skill, because it ruins your movement (this is my go to list BTW)

Imp Aces - Lots of skill

Trip-Jumps - No Skill.

That's my opinion anyway. Especially anything that requires arc dodging.

Your opinion doesn't change that there will always be a group to call the top squad "No skill" or "Easy Mode". So again, you will pardon me if I dismiss all claims that say that.

You know, even at 26 they would be a lot more limited than they are now. A list with no bid and all plasmas would have to drop an EM, and that's with no crew.

I've always wanted jumpmasters to be good ships, but yeah, the scouts should've been priced at 26.

Sure you can auto-win verse normal players, but to win regionals with these things takes skill. The guy that won Hoth Open with jumps flew them scary good.

Tie Swarm - def requires skills. All those bumps, my god.

Double Falcons - Meh, bit cheesy but not too bad. Fat Han - not a lot of skill.

BBBB - Skill. It has arcs and a rubbishy dial, clearly needs skill.

Phantom - Very powerful, but needs skill. Takes work to get the right decloak etc.

Turrets - Pretty lame. I'm OK with most turrets, but quad TLT is no skill.

Rebel Regen - Skill, because it ruins your movement (this is my go to list BTW)

Imp Aces - Lots of skill

Trip-Jumps - No Skill.

That's my opinion anyway. Especially anything that requires arc dodging.

Your opinion doesn't change that there will always be a group to call the top squad "No skill" or "Easy Mode". So again, you will pardon me if I dismiss all claims that say that.

Doesn't stop it being true either. So you will pardon me for dismissing you. I'll preemptively dismiss anything else you have to say as well.

Metas change. With upcoming waves, something else will become the hated list. That's the way these things go. I don't begrudge anyone that uses any list that is legal that they can fly well. There are only so many ship and card combos, so when it comes to tournament play, you will always see similar lists based on the current meta. Pilot skill and luck then will determine the outcome. No one should be mad at someone using the tool that works best for them to complete a specific job. The point of a tournament is to win, therefore, you should use whatever list you feel will give you the best chance to win. And the meta will change. It always does. Can't wait for the ARCs are too easy (cheesy) gripes in a few months lol.

Gripes won't be about the arc

Protectorate fighter is the most meta esque ATM and tie/sf's QuickDraw has a conditional but game defining ability

So far (given what we know) the arc's just jm5k fodder. Which is sad because it's by far the coolest ship

You know, even at 26 they would be a lot more limited than they are now. A list with no bid and all plasmas would have to drop an EM, and that's with no crew.

I've always wanted jumpmasters to be good ships, but yeah, the scouts should've been priced at 26.Sure you can auto-win verse normal players, but to win regionals with these things takes skill. The guy that won Hoth Open with jumps flew them scary good.

Given that people are bidding down to 97 wth jumpmasters for initiative, Im not sure being 26 would have changed much. Might have had a smaller initiative bid, or 1 less upgrade, but dont know it would have changed a lot.

Also, I just want to point out that the last time I played against uboats (2 + palob) I won with 5 scyks. The list definitely isnt autowin

The tournament is how they maintain Balance. They watch and make adjustments. I don't own 3 uboats and never will, but I'm not out to exploit a loophole in a game design flaw. If the tournament circuit was to see who was the best then they would have one list that everyone would have to play. That's not what they are after. They are looking for what needs fixed.

The tournament is how they maintain Balance. They watch and make adjustments. I don't own 3 uboats and never will, but I'm not out to exploit a loophole in a game design flaw. If the tournament circuit was to see who was the best then they would have one list that everyone would have to play. That's not what they are after. They are looking for what needs fixed.

Part of being the best is being able to build a list to win in the meta. Note than paul heaver has won worlds 3 times and he didnt exactly just take the cookie cutter flavor of the month build that was winning tournaments

The tournament is how they maintain Balance. They watch and make adjustments. I don't own 3 uboats and never will, but I'm not out to exploit a loophole in a game design flaw. If the tournament circuit was to see who was the best then they would have one list that everyone would have to play. That's not what they are after. They are looking for what needs fixed.

Part of being the best is being able to build a list to win in the meta. Note than paul heaver has won worlds 3 times and he didnt exactly just take the cookie cutter flavor of the month build that was winning tournaments

I mean at it's core.. Of course it's everything you say..

And the turbines begin to come alive...

This will be worse than PWT hatred.

To all you U-Boat players who have won events recently, congratulations! It isn't easy to win big events like regionals or the opens, so cheers! It must be doubly hard flying this list in the face of all the hatred. I sincerely hope no one takes anything negative to heart. Hopefully all this drama will blow over soon. Take heart in knowing that not that long ago people said the same thing about Fat Han, and we're all still alive so... Just don't sweat the haters!

Haters... you know what I think of you. U-Boats are a great addition to the game and like it or not they have changed the meta and for the better. Or did no one notice that most winning lists have been radically different? Howlrunner Swarm winning Yavin? Cobra takes Bratislava? I'd say the fear of U-Boats has done a wonderful job shaking up the meta. We are seeing more Imps and Scum than we ever have and there is a good reason for that. U-Boats. Either write a list to beat them or go home. That's the message FFG has sent. The counters are arc-dodgers, blockers and smart flying. Thus the message FFG is really trying to send is this; practice your fundamentals!

I respect rebel regen less than u-boats, so i do t fly it.

I respect palp-aces less than u-boats so i don't fly it.

I respect Corran Horn lists much much less than u-boats so i do t fly him.

But if another player wins with any list, including u-boats, Corran horn, or ace regen, I respect that they bested all the competition thrown at them with a list they wanted to play. Props to them.

Don't be bullies by player shaming for lists people play.

Just because you don't like a list doesn't mean your opinion is the only one that matters. If you don't want to fly against it, don't play in power meta dominant competitive events. And if you really want to stop a list's 'reign of terror' (subjective through your eyes) then build a list that beats it and stomp them every round through the top table. But know that after you win there will be others that are now just like you were, that now see your list as the evil ice cream face list.

#AllListsAreBeautiful! #U-BoatLivesMatter

Oh yes much praise for our new toilet seat overlords. They are the mostest awesome. All hail the toilet. Hail hail hail.

A meta where U-Boats are at the top and Palpatine is huge ship only would be a better meta. All you have to do is bid to PS 4. Even quad Bomber or perhaps even triple Black Eight Squadron would be playable.

The problem is that all that gets punished hard by Palp Aces.

Also, it's harder to play U-Boats than it is to play Palp Aces. You have to fly 3 big ships close to each other and not land on asteroids or debris with them while still having an in arc shot against something. It's harder to do than just running away with the shuttle and doing a 1 green hard and 3 actions with the Inquisitor, and a 2 green hard and 3 actions with Soontir every turn. I have an easier time playing my dual Mindlink Brobots list.

It's not exactly skill to see where your opponent moves to and boost and barrel roll reactively.

There seem to be two kinds of people that are pissed about the Bowflex Revolution being so powerful. People who played nothing but regen Poe and Miranda during wave 7, and greedy Imperial players that are mad that something can actually damage their ships for once. I have no sympathy for either, you guys had it coming. "U-Boats take no skill." HA.

I don't understand all the fuss, I have yet to lose to 3 scouts and have regularly beaten the crap out of them and even made a bunch of Them cry.

In fact, the only time 3 scouts even stood a chance was when one of the Girl Guides with them called the police. Squealers.

...That's a hilarious post right there.