Doesn't matter if it takes a little bit of careful flying to not step on your own ****. FFG screwed up by giving the CS an EPT. That's all that matters. They created an NPE unit intentionally or otherwise.

Let's take away its EPT slot, so that by the time it has a Palp Ace locked and in arc it has already lost a ship. God forbid a jouster actually be good.

How about we make Palpatine epic game only?

PGS you make me laugh so much. Elite talents and PS 3 go well together. I am going to have a look at what other bottom rate ship has an EPT.

Green Squadron A-Wings have two.

They have 1, can access 2.

You can consider they have 2 for all intents and purposes. A-wing test pilot costs 0 and doesn't compete with anything for the title slot. Barring card availability there's no reason not to use it.

Especially now that we have a free Elite upgrade! Only the Empire doesn't have a PS3 with Elite (which is a shame, because the Bounty Hunter would have loved that), but they in turn have several PS4s.

Staying in arc is at least easier with jumpmasters than with most other ships. You have either the white (!) s-loop move or you do the conventional 4k-turn taking your target lock from the previous round (Aggromech!) with you.

I love that the Contracted Scout debate has gotten to the point where the ability to not crash into asteroids is considered "skill".

Yeah no. I stopped crashing into asteroids after my second game ever, so I don't think the ability NOT to crash into crap as "skill". The only time I ever do it now is if I am purposely flying through an asteroid and take a gamble on the distance I have to clear the rock.

If you can't avoid hitting things with a dial that literally has every single move in the game except for TWO, a hard 3 turn and a straight 5, then you need to learn how to fly a ship. And I almost forgot to mention that your entire dial has 2 red moves.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye. But I guess I'm just used to PGS complaining that the most maneuverable fighter in the entire SW universe is in fact highly maneuverable.

Stop complaining about Palp Aces. Yeah, I think Palp needs a range modifier on his ability at minimum, but he changes 1 die roll per round. The way PGS talks, you'd think Palp modifies 1 die on every single roll in a round. And Soontir? You bump him once and you can kill him in one round of shooting, he's got 3 hit points. There literally isn't a ship in the game that has fewer hit points.

I love that the Contracted Scout debate has gotten to the point where the ability to not crash into asteroids is considered "skill".

Yeah no. I stopped crashing into asteroids after my second game ever, so I don't think the ability NOT to crash into crap as "skill". The only time I ever do it now is if I am purposely flying through an asteroid and take a gamble on the distance I have to clear the rock.

If you can't avoid hitting things with a dial that literally has every single move in the game except for TWO, a hard 3 turn and a straight 5, then you need to learn how to fly a ship. And I almost forgot to mention that your entire dial has 2 red moves.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye. But I guess I'm just used to PGS complaining that the most maneuverable fighter in the entire SW universe is in fact highly maneuverable.

Stop complaining about Palp Aces. Yeah, I think Palp needs a range modifier on his ability at minimum, but he changes 1 die roll per round. The way PGS talks, you'd think Palp modifies 1 die on every single roll in a round. And Soontir? You bump him once and you can kill him in one round of shooting, he's got 3 hit points. There literally isn't a ship in the game that has fewer hit points.

Typical Imperial player obnoxiousness.

If I block Soontir, and all he has to modify are 4 agility dice and Palpatine, I have a 48% chance of doing nothing with a 3/3 hit attack. That's IF I get 3 hits.

A Soontir that rolls 2 blanks and a focus on 3 agility dice can turn that into 4 evades.

Palp Aces doesn't Vaporize everything turn one, that's what U-Boats do. Palp Aces are the defensive version of U-Boats, where you just fly like an idiot and have your dice mods bail you out. You want to criticize U-Boats for taking little skill and just being point and shoot, I agree with you. But Palp Aces is similarly broken and requires just as little skill as U-Boats do.

You think it's too good to just point your ship at something and focus and wait for it to fly into range so you can delete it? Fine. But maybe you should get good and play a list where you don't get 3 actions every round plus Palpatine and Autothrusters for merely doing a green hard turn. Wow, what planning and foresight it takes to do a green hard every turn and get 3 actions with your invincible ship.

"Phantom wasn't broken, just gotta throw dice at it bro. Those green dice will fail eventually." I'm not surprised Imperial players are similarly greedy and obtuse about their precious green 2 hard turn to win. Stresshog was too easy to hand off stress with, too much of an autoinclude for Rebel lists, and too good for its points, right? Because greedy Imperial players thought that last wave.

"Palpatine only works once per turn."

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye.

He does have a point. In order for a non-EPT scout to shoot at a Palp Ace he needs to have the ace within range 3 before the ace moved (so it can Target Lock) and then still at range 2-3 AND in arc in the combat phase (after the ace moved). Triple Scout struggles vs. Palp Aces as it is currently. Without EPT the list would be dead&buried IMO.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye.

He does have a point. In order for a non-EPT scout to shoot at a Palp Ace he needs to have the ace within range 3 before the ace moved (so it can Target Lock) and then still at range 2-3 AND in arc in the combat phase (after the ace moved). Triple Scout struggles vs. Palp Aces as it is currently. Without EPT the list would be dead&buried IMO.

And then with U-Boats gone from the meta these things would make a comeback:

1.) Quad TLT. What a skill intensive, positive play experience, high risk high reward squad.

2.) Regen. You did 12 damage to a 6 health ship and it's still at full health? What a positive play experience, I sure want to face another person playing this list archetype.

I agree that this u-boat has done so much good for the game, it really was able to brake those archetype squads while not being overpowering it self. Some people just don't see the positive outcome from this unravelling slowly!

Praise the U-boats!

With all these arguments flying about the main culprit is FFG. I don't think it was an accident that the CS is as good and as cheap as it is. I hated Quad TLT lists, as for the reason PGS has said, required very little skill to effectively play. FFG needs to sell new ships, and here is the Triple CS list. Older ships need a buff to make them competitive... A new release a la Imperial vets will come. I think as a business practice it is working for them, bring out something new, in the mean time bring out buff expansions whilst you work on the next wave. I dont like that the only lists making it to the top are Palp Aces or Triple U Boat, it seems extremely unfun to have it this way. We get people who want to be competitive play only these lists and nothing new gets to the board.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye.

He does have a point. In order for a non-EPT scout to shoot at a Palp Ace he needs to have the ace within range 3 before the ace moved (so it can Target Lock) and then still at range 2-3 AND in arc in the combat phase (after the ace moved). Triple Scout struggles vs. Palp Aces as it is currently. Without EPT the list would be dead&buried IMO.

And then with U-Boats gone from the meta these things would make a comeback:

1.) Quad TLT. What a skill intensive, positive play experience, high risk high reward squad.

2.) Regen. You did 12 damage to a 6 health ship and it's still at full health? What a positive play experience, I sure want to face another person playing this list archetype.

I agree with SOME of the things you've said thus far, but honestly, it just seems to me like you wish X-Wing had never gotten a Wave past 3.

Mostly what you've said about Regen just doesnt strike me as being particularly true. Regen only did as well as it did because lists(like Palp Aces) had such a low damage-per-turn output that Regen could make a difference. If you only do 2 damage to a ship a turn, and it regens 1 of them(which requires it to move in a very predictable pattern that leaves it open to be tailed and worn down pretty quickly if, you know, you're a good player), here's a wild suggestion; take a list that does more than 2 damage a turn. Don't want to do that? Kill everything else in the list first and focus everything on that one ship with everything and it will die eventually. 1 shield a turn can't save it unless you're making mistakes and giving it multiple turns to run away and regen, and then that's on you. The only thing that makes a Regen list easier to play with is that, every so often, you will return a shield token to your ship. Everything else requires just as much skill and tactics as any other list. It adds longevity, it doesnt mean the list maneuvers itself. I've always detested how much **** people talked about Regen lists, because they're not even remotely close to not requiring skill. And it very, very certainly can be overcome, rather easily in fact. The simple answer is to do more damage. I would much rather play against Regen than i would U-Boats, any day of the week, because Regen doesnt have guaranteed dice.

I also dislike what you've said about TLTs. At the time, i hated that list, but honestly now, it doesnt seem that bad, and i'd probably take it back because i had lists that could kill one of them a turn guaranteed, without losing one of my own ships until turn 2 when i'd have killed another. But more specifically, i mean what you said about it not being "high risk high reward". That pisses me off. I'm not going to take a list that requires a ton of risk to a high level play tournament. The goal in list making for tournament play is to make as consistent a list as possible. The goal is to take the least amount of risk possible while still remaining effective. This is exactly why Palp Aces and U-Boats are so popular, because there is minimal risk in using them. If you're going to argue about how those lists are in some way bad, at least use an argument that makes sense.

I think there should always be some risk in fielding any squad, which is why i dislike lists like 4 TLTs, U-Boats, Palp Aces etc etc. But no good tournament list has high risk in using it.

If this was Wave 7 still and you were complaining about TLTs and Regen(Which you did, a lot) i'd honestly say "Get better." and mean it, whether that be improving your tactics or just improving your list building. I myself have had minimal trouble beating TLTs, Regen, Fat Turrets, and so on, and it's not like i'm some kind of X-Wing god that always plays the hot meta list. But this is Wave 8, and you can't really say that anymore. It's not so much as "Get Better" as it is "Get U-Boats" or "Get Palpatine".

You're right and you're wrong. You're right about some lists not requiring skill, like U-Boats, Palp Aces, and TLTs. You're wrong about other lists.

Honestly man, if you hate Rebels as much as you say, you hate Imperials as much as you say, and you hate Scum as much as you say, i cannot fathom why you even bother trying to play X-Wing. It seems to me that you just don't like the game. Or, at least, that you don't like how everyone else plays the game. So, i guess, either play only casually, or just stop playing.

Mostly what you've said about Regen just doesnt strike me as being particularly true. Regen only did as well as it did because lists(like Palp Aces) had such a low damage-per-turn output that Regen could make a difference. If you only do 2 damage to a ship a turn, and it regens 1 of them(which requires it to move in a very predictable pattern that leaves it open to be tailed and worn down pretty quickly if, you know, you're a good player)

I think you're downplaying regen by a lot, intentionally or not.

Take the most common regen ships: Poe, Miranda and Corran.

Poe (with R5-P9) and Miranda have zero movement restrictions (apart from don't do reds for Poe).

Corran has some movement restrictions but it's quite hard to be facing Corran (so you put some damage on him as he moves in for the double tap and be in a position to block or chase both 3 forward and 2 banks he wants to do as he runs away.

Regen was not OP, IMO at least, but it did shut down pretty hard a whole category of Imperial Ships (low DMG arc dodgers)

Mostly what you've said about Regen just doesnt strike me as being particularly true. Regen only did as well as it did because lists(like Palp Aces) had such a low damage-per-turn output that Regen could make a difference. If you only do 2 damage to a ship a turn, and it regens 1 of them(which requires it to move in a very predictable pattern that leaves it open to be tailed and worn down pretty quickly if, you know, you're a good player)

I think you're downplaying regen by a lot, intentionally or not.

Take the most common regen ships: Poe, Miranda and Corran.

Poe (with R5-P9) and Miranda have zero movement restrictions (apart from don't do reds for Poe).

Corran has some movement restrictions but it's quite hard to be facing Corran (so you put some damage on him as he moves in for the double tap and be in a position to block or chase both 3 forward and 2 banks he wants to do as he runs away.

Regen was not OP, IMO at least, but it did shut down pretty hard a whole category of Imperial Ships (low DMG arc dodgers)

R5-P9 can be blocked and then it doesnt work AND Poe gets no mods that turn. Miranda can only regen during combat, and is capped at PS8, so pilots higher PS than her can shoot her before she regens, and pilots lower than her can shoot her after she regens. AND, in order to regen, offensive ability must be sacrificed. Either way, there is a simple, easy solution to shut down anything that Regens. And nor would i say it shut down low-damage arc dodgers, because Imp Aces was still incredibly popular in the meta at the time, and Palp Aces generally still wins(albeit more of a 60-40 than a 80-20) against Regen because at the end of the day while Regen can still recover a shield a turn at best, that doesnt mean you're actually going to get in arc or damage any of those Aces. Darth Vader gets a focus + evade for juke + TL for the extra crit + palp so he's almost always rolling hit hit crit and then turning one of your evades to a focus, and if you want to regen that 2+ damage from that one ship, you either need to A. sacrifice an attack die shooting back as Miranda and TLTs WILL NOT hit a Palp Ace to begin with, B. Make yourself predictable next turn and almost guarantee more damage being slung on you by the more maneuverable aces, or C. spend the focus token if you even got one. And that's just one attack, Soontir or Inquisitor or whoever still hasnt shot yet.

Regen is pretty easy to crack as long as you're patient.

Regen is pretty easy to crack as long as you're patient.

Look at last year's worlds final. 7 ships on the board, 3 had Regen while 2 of the remaining 4 were low PS blockers.

How come so much regen made it so high if it's as easy to crack as you say?

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye.

He does have a point. In order for a non-EPT scout to shoot at a Palp Ace he needs to have the ace within range 3 before the ace moved (so it can Target Lock) and then still at range 2-3 AND in arc in the combat phase (after the ace moved). Triple Scout struggles vs. Palp Aces as it is currently. Without EPT the list would be dead&buried IMO.

And then with U-Boats gone from the meta these things would make a comeback:

1.) Quad TLT. What a skill intensive, positive play experience, high risk high reward squad.

2.) Regen. You did 12 damage to a 6 health ship and it's still at full health? What a positive play experience, I sure want to face another person playing this list archetype.

And there's still the

"Chew through my 3 evades out of thin air, if you DID manage to get me in arc" Palp-aces

and without TLTs EU-PWTs make a goddamn comeback

(personally smashed faces with YT-3700 this weekend, and Doubledeci the weekend before that)

Regen is pretty easy to crack as long as you're patient.

Look at last year's worlds final. 7 ships on the board, 3 had Regen while 2 of the remaining 4 were low PS blockers.

How come so much regen made it so high if it's as easy to crack as you say?

Some good reasons for you

So, Jumpmasters completely dominated Kashyyyk Open this weekend.

This is partly about the unique position of the Italian game, who had literally only just got Wave 8 so anybody who had managed to get English copies of the expansion had a huge lead time on preparation over most of the field. It's also partly about the fact that the final was split between two UK players who are in my playtest team and have been running Jumpmasters throughout the Regional/Open series making multiple Top-8s. They're the examples that it takes skill to successfully pilot Jumpmasters in an elite field. Tom, who won, was winning big tournaments long before Jumpmasters existed. They've not been a magic bullet for unskilled guys to win anything, just a new tool that the best players have adopted.

Honestly man, if you hate Rebels as much as you say, you hate Imperials as much as you say, and you hate Scum as much as you say, i cannot fathom why you even bother trying to play X-Wing. It seems to me that you just don't like the game. Or, at least, that you don't like how everyone else plays the game. So, i guess, either play only casually, or just stop playing.

QFT. I get PGS is a massive troll whi hates everything, but really man, why do you play this game? It didn't seem you enjoy it...

Regen is pretty easy to crack as long as you're patient.

Look at last year's worlds final. 7 ships on the board, 3 had Regen while 2 of the remaining 4 were low PS blockers.

How come so much regen made it so high if it's as easy to crack as you say?

Regen is pretty much the only way rebel aces work because they tend to lack triple action economy and/or the ability to boost and BR. The closest the rebels have to Soontir is Jake and Jake's offense is worse than Fel's.

I love that the Contracted Scout debate has gotten to the point where the ability to not crash into asteroids is considered "skill".

Yeah no. I stopped crashing into asteroids after my second game ever, so I don't think the ability NOT to crash into crap as "skill". The only time I ever do it now is if I am purposely flying through an asteroid and take a gamble on the distance I have to clear the rock.

If you can't avoid hitting things with a dial that literally has every single move in the game except for TWO, a hard 3 turn and a straight 5, then you need to learn how to fly a ship. And I almost forgot to mention that your entire dial has 2 red moves.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye. But I guess I'm just used to PGS complaining that the most maneuverable fighter in the entire SW universe is in fact highly maneuverable.

Stop complaining about Palp Aces. Yeah, I think Palp needs a range modifier on his ability at minimum, but he changes 1 die roll per round. The way PGS talks, you'd think Palp modifies 1 die on every single roll in a round. And Soontir? You bump him once and you can kill him in one round of shooting, he's got 3 hit points. There literally isn't a ship in the game that has fewer hit points.

Typical Imperial player obnoxiousness.

If I block Soontir, and all he has to modify are 4 agility dice and Palpatine, I have a 48% chance of doing nothing with a 3/3 hit attack. That's IF I get 3 hits.

A Soontir that rolls 2 blanks and a focus on 3 agility dice can turn that into 4 evades.

Palp Aces doesn't Vaporize everything turn one, that's what U-Boats do. Palp Aces are the defensive version of U-Boats, where you just fly like an idiot and have your dice mods bail you out. You want to criticize U-Boats for taking little skill and just being point and shoot, I agree with you. But Palp Aces is similarly broken and requires just as little skill as U-Boats do.

You think it's too good to just point your ship at something and focus and wait for it to fly into range so you can delete it? Fine. But maybe you should get good and play a list where you don't get 3 actions every round plus Palpatine and Autothrusters for merely doing a green hard turn. Wow, what planning and foresight it takes to do a green hard every turn and get 3 actions with your invincible ship.

"Phantom wasn't broken, just gotta throw dice at it bro. Those green dice will fail eventually." I'm not surprised Imperial players are similarly greedy and obtuse about their precious green 2 hard turn to win. Stresshog was too easy to hand off stress with, too much of an autoinclude for Rebel lists, and too good for its points, right? Because greedy Imperial players thought that last wave.

"Palpatine only works once per turn."

I flew tripple uBoats against his fel, jax, yorr, (a list he win store championships with) and I had him beat 45 min.

It was so easy to see where fel was going to go, just move that direction and barrel roll, and line up two behind him, and Ya that was game over.

After stomping him two games in a row, I used my the list that I win a store championship with yorr, omega and whisper and again he stomped me in the ground in 45 min.

I tried to get past his uBoats with whisper. But he used one to block one of his others so didn't go anywhere and whisper bumped, and was one shooted.

And what he said nailed it down well after the fact

"This is the first time I've flown this and it Beat your squad, unbelievable"

He's a good player, but still a squad he's never used before was able to completely stomp me, and I've only used them once before and was able to completely stomp him.

My second game against them I was actually winning, had one destroyed, one down to two hull and another with no shields when I just clipped the side of a debris.

This is where I lost the game.

So with uBoats we were both able to beat the other with very little to no experience using them, playing against a list that we are very experienced flying, and both won store championship with them.

You don't need to be sherlock Holmes to look at the board and know that hey I can very easily block him and get a shot.

Aces requires perfect flying. One mistake and it's game over. I don't see how that's easy.

He just laughed at that dial repeatedly when he was playing them saying "that's so sick " I must admit though, got some good laughs from it.

One thing for certain is ffg made an error somewhere, It's elite, or dial, or having that second missle slot, something just ain't right about it for its cost

For the record flying against aces is tough. Don't get me wrong fel is a ***** and if you don't have a good squad Ya the game can be over, but at least if he makes a bad judgement you can capitalise from it. UBoats not so much. If he makes a mistake he's probably not going to lose that ship.

Even if the generic didn't have the elite, manaroo and Dengar are still very capable and tel, as we have seen with Dengar and fett combinations etc, so scum still would have a competitive ship even if they generics didn't have dead eye. You would still see the bumpmaster as well.

Even if the generic didn't have the elite, manaroo and Dengar are still very capable and tel, as we have seen with Dengar and fett combinations etc, so scum still would have a competitive ship even if they generics didn't have dead eye. You would still see the bumpmaster as well.

They promised us we would fear ordnance, and they did

they promised us a world where einforced deflectors would be good, and they did it

well, U-boat is simply a statement "OH YES WE CAN!" from FFG

showing how much needs to align to make ordnance work.

(They simply could have given us goddamn black dice)

I love that the Contracted Scout debate has gotten to the point where the ability to not crash into asteroids is considered "skill".

Yeah no. I stopped crashing into asteroids after my second game ever, so I don't think the ability NOT to crash into crap as "skill". The only time I ever do it now is if I am purposely flying through an asteroid and take a gamble on the distance I have to clear the rock.

If you can't avoid hitting things with a dial that literally has every single move in the game except for TWO, a hard 3 turn and a straight 5, then you need to learn how to fly a ship. And I almost forgot to mention that your entire dial has 2 red moves.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye. But I guess I'm just used to PGS complaining that the most maneuverable fighter in the entire SW universe is in fact highly maneuverable.

Stop complaining about Palp Aces. Yeah, I think Palp needs a range modifier on his ability at minimum, but he changes 1 die roll per round. The way PGS talks, you'd think Palp modifies 1 die on every single roll in a round. And Soontir? You bump him once and you can kill him in one round of shooting, he's got 3 hit points. There literally isn't a ship in the game that has fewer hit points.

Typical Imperial player obnoxiousness.

If I block Soontir, and all he has to modify are 4 agility dice and Palpatine, I have a 48% chance of doing nothing with a 3/3 hit attack. That's IF I get 3 hits.

A Soontir that rolls 2 blanks and a focus on 3 agility dice can turn that into 4 evades.

Palp Aces doesn't Vaporize everything turn one, that's what U-Boats do. Palp Aces are the defensive version of U-Boats, where you just fly like an idiot and have your dice mods bail you out. You want to criticize U-Boats for taking little skill and just being point and shoot, I agree with you. But Palp Aces is similarly broken and requires just as little skill as U-Boats do.

You think it's too good to just point your ship at something and focus and wait for it to fly into range so you can delete it? Fine. But maybe you should get good and play a list where you don't get 3 actions every round plus Palpatine and Autothrusters for merely doing a green hard turn. Wow, what planning and foresight it takes to do a green hard every turn and get 3 actions with your invincible ship.

"Phantom wasn't broken, just gotta throw dice at it bro. Those green dice will fail eventually." I'm not surprised Imperial players are similarly greedy and obtuse about their precious green 2 hard turn to win. Stresshog was too easy to hand off stress with, too much of an autoinclude for Rebel lists, and too good for its points, right? Because greedy Imperial players thought that last wave.

"Palpatine only works once per turn."

My buddy and I had some practice games in the other night.

I flew tripple uBoats against his fel, jax, yorr, (a list he win store championships with) and I had him beat 45 min.

It was so easy to see where fel was going to go, just move that direction and barrel roll, and line up two behind him, and Ya that was game over.

After stomping him two games in a row, I used my the list that I win a store championship with yorr, omega and whisper and again he stomped me in the ground in 45 min.

I tried to get past his uBoats with whisper. But he used one to block one of his others so didn't go anywhere and whisper bumped, and was one shooted.

And what he said nailed it down well after the fact

"This is the first time I've flown this and it Beat your squad, unbelievable"

He's a good player, but still a squad he's never used before was able to completely stomp me, and I've only used them once before and was able to completely stomp him.

My second game against them I was actually winning, had one destroyed, one down to two hull and another with no shields when I just clipped the side of a debris.

This is where I lost the game.

So with uBoats we were both able to beat the other with very little to no experience using them, playing against a list that we are very experienced flying, and both won store championship with them.

You don't need to be sherlock Holmes to look at the board and know that hey I can very easily block him and get a shot.

Aces requires perfect flying. One mistake and it's game over. I don't see how that's easy.

He just laughed at that dial repeatedly when he was playing them saying "that's so sick " I must admit though, got some good laughs from it.

One thing for certain is ffg made an error somewhere, It's elite, or dial, or having that second missle slot, something just ain't right about it for its cost

For the record flying against aces is tough. Don't get me wrong fel is a ***** and if you don't have a good squad Ya the game can be over, but at least if he makes a bad judgement you can capitalise from it. UBoats not so much. If he makes a mistake he's probably not going to lose that ship.

Even if the generic didn't have the elite, manaroo and Dengar are still very capable and tel, as we have seen with Dengar and fett combinations etc, so scum still would have a competitive ship even if they generics didn't have dead eye. You would still see the bumpmaster as well.

By contrast, though, neither of you had experience with your lists against Jumpmasters either, right? That makes a big difference because you learn to fear and avoid the bumping.

As you say it takes a lot of skill to avoid screwing up with Aces, but it also takes a lot of familiarity with the opponent and his capabilities. Going in cold against one of the strongest lists around is going to be a recipe for bad times.

That's true, but it wasnt my first time seeing them, and we both know whats going to happen

I mean we are pretty experienced.

We're not the best by any means, but we play a lot, and usually do well in competitive events.

Once they get close that's three large bases that can barrel roll and with asteroids, can really leave you little to no room to get around

The results on a first time use though lol.

We both hate the list but now I think he's considering using them because well why not.

If he can get resultslike that after one game, then imagine after 20

It's not an easy list to defeat with a phantom that's for sure. No autothrusters to save Ya, and even out of arc shots, dice are going to fall eventually.

Whisper can shrug off one Torpedo, but two or three is tough.

I would have won That second game if it wasn't for that debris though, and that was not easy.

And then you've got PGS with his "Palp Aces vaporizes everything on the board in one turn" talk. U-boats have 9 health, so I find it hard to see how a list with 3 ships with 3 attack dice kills one of the three U-boats before it gets to shoot in the absence of an EPT slot allowing Deadeye.

He does have a point. In order for a non-EPT scout to shoot at a Palp Ace he needs to have the ace within range 3 before the ace moved (so it can Target Lock) and then still at range 2-3 AND in arc in the combat phase (after the ace moved). Triple Scout struggles vs. Palp Aces as it is currently. Without EPT the list would be dead&buried IMO.

Yeah, and this is exactly why pilot skill is something that costs points. I find it really ironic that PGS loves to claim that pilot skill is one of the most important things in the game and then dismisses complaints that a PS3 pilot gets an EPT slot that breaks the game. And then he compares a list of 3 PS3 pilots against a list with 2 PS 8 or 9 pilots. "Whaaaaa, Soontir can pull a green hard 2, then boost and barrel roll", yeah, and then he just has a focus and no evade. So then you've got to choose to use that focus on attack or defense. Then you've got to decide whether to use Palp on attack or defense. But you can't do all of those things. And never mind the fact that there are a ton of things in the game that do undodgable damage. I've seen someone RECK Soontir by dropping a well placed bomb.

But giving a PS3 pilot an EPT that removes one of the HUGE advantages that pilot skill imparts is kind of stupid. The game mechanics were designed to make torps hard to use on a low PS pilot. For a good reason.

Yeah, you're probably not going to hit Soontir out of arc when he's focused and evaded. But that's also because he's a ship that costs over 1/3rd of your squad points and has 3 hull.

But the thing that cracks me up when PGS complains about Palp Aces is that he tries to claim that Palp Aces can perform ALL it's options in a single round when he starts complaining. Yes, Palp Aces is a powerful list, but it requires a ton of correct decision making. Triple Scouts just has to keep someone in arc (or not, it's still a PWT.....) with one of the best dials in the game, not hit an asteroid and focus. Manage that and you're usually going to get 4 hits, at least one of which is a crit.

And if you hate Palp Aces so much, wouldn't you be annoyed that triple Scouts pushed out almost all the counters to Palp Aces?

Palp needed a range limit. Not putting that in was a mistake. But I wouldn't really know because I don't ever play him, because I like having fun more than winning. And because I hate flying the Imperial Shuttle. But giving the Contracted Scout an EPT as it's built was a MUCH bigger mistake.

I'm going to put in my 2 cents. I enjoy running TLT Thugs in my Scum lists, but I generally run a pair to support a large ship or ace. When I hear what say about Wolf Pack lists and their ease of play, I can understand why they wouldn't be highly praised. Same goes for Thug Live. I don't see why people would want to fly bland lists like that, but I guess to each his own.

But giving a PS3 pilot an EPT that removes one of the HUGE advantages that pilot skill imparts is kind of stupid. The game mechanics were designed to make torps hard to use on a low PS pilot. For a good reason.

My 2 cents regarding Palp Aces vs. U-boats ease of play:

I play both and I consider myself an average player. Good enough to accurately predict where my moves land me (I rarely bump my own ships or clip asteroids unintentionally) but bad enough I struggle to predict an opponent more than 1 move in advance.

To play AT MY LEVEL Palp Aces feels a lot easier, for a very simple reason: the way I play it, I get to do mostly reactive play. If I don't feed my opponent moves that he can easily block I can just do some move, then boost/barrel roll with full knowledge of his final position. Meanwhile, with scouts I need to play proactively: dial in my moves by predicting where my opponent is going, with no room for correction. I find the latter harder than the former.

Hail Hail Hail