Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.OrIts8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnanceNo there is nothing wrong with that.The ship is OP.If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already areI want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own wayI don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few optionsEven folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcostedBroken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken roflI'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with thatAlso according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts. As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time). B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster. E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster. Ditto bombers. Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive. Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

I'm just saying, when you look cost wise, efficency wise, and how customizable it is, really the Jumpmaster just out classes all those things.

That's not to say if you don't use a jump master you won't win, but you can't deny the fact that for everything considering it does better what a lot of ships are suppose to do. I still use a variety of ships, but if I am building a scum squad, and I am looking for something that is competitive, jumpmaster are just too freaking awesome.

It really bothers me that this thing is better than bombers and punishers. It does what they are suppose to do 10 times better. Even ywings should be able to deliver a payload easier.

Definitely not the case in this game

I was just simply trying to make a point to someone that the Jumpmaster is not fine the way it is. The last thing we need in the game is for other ships to be released in the future that are of the sane caliber as the Jumpmaster, which will only push the ships I mentioned further on the back shelf.

Looking at an xwing for example, When I look at its potential dmg, it's total hp, it's dial, its upgrade options, I wonder other than flying it because I really want to make use of it, it's not that great of value when I can choose a ship that costs 4 more points and brings so much more options. Same with a ship like the imperial firespray. I'll use it because I like it, but again when I'm building a squad is it really worth the extra 8 pts? Now that I do have better options at my disposal.

Personally I don't like the direction it is going if that's the case, and I don't like the fact that ffg has to release a "hard counter" to something the following wave. To me that's almost admittance that they screwed up.

One question addressed to everyone thinking Contracted Scout shouldn't have an EPT, or Deadeye should be unique or anything else that would make triple Scout as we know it impossible:

In such a situation what could Scum field that would be able to fight on equal footing with Palp Aces, Crack Swarms and Rebel Regen/Stresshogs plus Dash Ghost builds?

Actually maybe that be little more balanced. Each faction would kind of have their own "go to ace squads." Maybe rebel aces such as poe and marnda wouldn't have been pushed out since fielding tripple uBoats wouldn't be so powerful, allowing 3 different flavors instead of two which we seem to have now

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.OrIts8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnanceNo there is nothing wrong with that.The ship is OP.If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already areI want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own wayI don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few optionsEven folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcostedBroken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken roflI'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with thatAlso according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts. As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time). B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster. E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster. Ditto bombers. Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive. Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

I know people still use them, there is a bit of an exaggeration there.

I'm just saying, when you look cost wise, efficency wise, and how customizable it is, really the Jumpmaster just out classes all those things.

And yet I beat 2 jumpmasters + palob with my 5 scyk list. So there's that.

That's not to say if you don't use a jump master you won't win, but you can't deny the fact that for everything considering it does better what a lot of ships are suppose to do. I still use a variety of ships, but if I am building a scum squad, and I am looking for something that is competitive, jumpmaster are just too freaking awesome.

It really bothers me that this thing is better than bombers and punishers. It does what they are suppose to do 10 times better. Even ywings should be able to deliver a payload easier.

Definitely not the case in this game

I was just simply trying to make a point to someone that the Jumpmaster is not fine the way it is. The last thing we need in the game is for other ships to be released in the future that are of the sane caliber as the Jumpmaster, which will only push the ships I mentioned further on the back shelf.

I will agree that the jumpmaster shouldn't be the best ordnance carrier in the game, but part of that is failings on the part of ordnance and the actual bomber ships.

You keep talking abut the jumpmatser (or other ships of the same caliber) pushing the hsips you mentioned further on the back shelf. They're already there. If they release other ships that are better, the old ships won't be any LESS used than they already are. If they release new ships that AREN'T good, the other old ships won't be seen MORE than they are, because the meta will just stay where it is instead. Either way non-competitive ships won't be used unless they release new upgrades that make them better.

Looking at an xwing for example, When I look at its potential dmg, it's total hp, it's dial, its upgrade options, I wonder other than flying it because I really want to make use of it, it's not that great of value when I can choose a ship that costs 4 more points and brings so much more options. Same with a ship like the imperial firespray. I'll use it because I like it, but again when I'm building a squad is it really worth the extra 8 pts? Now that I do have better options at my disposal.

Personally I don't like the direction it is going if that's the case, and I don't like the fact that ffg has to release a "hard counter" to something the following wave. To me that's almost admittance that they screwed up.

You can't compare the x-wing to the naked jumpmaster. No one flies the jumpmaster naked. Compare the x-wing to the 33 point uboat if you're going to compare it. Except now you're paying 50% more for the jumpmaster than you are on the x-wing (assuming a rookie with a 1pt astro and IA). The 33 point ship should absolutely be better than the 22 point ship.

As for the imperial firespray, if you'r eplaying imperial you can't take a u-boat anyway. And the imp firespray hasn't been competitive since before I started playing, if ever. You can't compare an actual competitive ship to ships that weren't competitive in the first place to say it's overpowered. That's just like comparing the scout to the WSF and the ORS. Sure, compared to them it's straight up power creep. But they were never good in the first place. If you're going to compare it to other ships, you have to compare it to ships that were actually competitive to begin with.

And who says the "hard counter" is because they screwed up? Wave 9 was done being developed before wave 8 ever released for them to see how big of an impact uboats would make on the meta. Maybe it just happened to work out that something in wave 9 ended up being really good against ordnance?

Regardless uBoats as current is not a direction I like seeing this game.

Instead of releasing ships that of the same standard as jumpmaster I'd rather see updates to old existing ships, which we have.

I'm comparing a generic xwing (and I'm only using that as an example there are other generic that you can use, Ewing, bounty hunters etc)to the generic uBoats because when you look at what each ship has to offer there is clearly a point imbalance.

OK so let's look at the 33 pts uBoats. A generic firespray at the same cost is no where near competitive. Let's take a generic xwing, starviper. And load them to the gills so to match the point cost, again it's just no where near as viable.

Yes bounty hunters were competitive at one point, and of course at the time so wasnt Biggs,Luke and wedge. I believe it was wave 3, Tripple bounty hunters were a thing. They haven't been since.

If wave 9 just releases new ships that make our old ones non existent then we're not really playing xwing anymore. Myself and many others have tons of ships we would all like to see get some use. Maybe they aren't used today, but is I'd like to think maybe tomorrow. If that's not the case, then that just makes it easier for me when I sell my stuff off. (i want to sell but I do enjoy this game, and have considered taking it with me when I move to another country, but if it gets to that point, parting with it will just be so much easier)

You seem to miss my point

Yes there are ships we don't use already. But having new ships come in that make it even harder to make use of the old ones is not a direction I like, and really seems like such a waste of time and our money releasing fixes for the advanced, bwings, awing etc. If new stuff is going to only make choosing them that much harder

It was shortly after release Alex stated that the jump master was going to have a hard counter. We don't know the facts, but maybe it was pushed through to meet a deadline, or they didn't realize until after the fact and when they started wave 9 they had an issue on hand. Why would Alex even feel it's necessary to suggest there is a fix coming. That is a first for this Game as they never came right out and said a counter would be following, even after the Phantom shenanigans.

I'm probably not correct. But you can't say I'm completely wrong either, unless you are actually working for ffg we will never know, but I take it as a **** up on their part. You don't have to agree with that. But thatsv how I read into it

I also find it funny that a following wave has to introduce a hard counter to a previous wave. Doesn't feel right to me. If the game is well designed, then it shouldnt be requiring hard counters so soon.

You say it just worked out that way, but I doubt it's coincidence that they are releasing a counter next wave just because it so happens to have worked out that way

One question addressed to everyone thinking Contracted Scout shouldn't have an EPT, or Deadeye should be unique or anything else that would make triple Scout as we know it impossible:

In such a situation what could Scum field that would be able to fight on equal footing with Palp Aces, Crack Swarms and Rebel Regen/Stresshogs plus Dash Ghost builds?

Well let's say generics didn't have the EPT, and Jumpmasters only had the 1 missle slot, but the ships price was the same. I think it would still do quite well running 1 generic with an ace type squad, or fielding Dengar along with something else. I've seen players do quite well Dengar and boba fett/bossk.

Actually maybe that be little more balanced. Each faction would kind of have their own "go to ace squads." Maybe rebel aces such as poe and marnda wouldn't have been pushed out since fielding tripple uBoats wouldn't be so powerful, allowing 3 different flavors instead of two which we seem to have now

There's a long way from 'do quite well' from being able to take on Palp Aces and everything else regularly on equal footing.

Anecdotal evidence, but I have played Dengar/Wingman and while it can do decently against Palp Aces (eats the likes of Inquisitor with ease, struggles hard vs. stuff like Soontir with initiative) it struggles against most PWTs and TLTs.

IMO, without triple Jumpmasters Scum would be back to what they were before Wave 8: the weakest and least played faction of X-Wing. Not by such a large margin that you wouldn't see the occasional Scum tournament win or that they would be hopeless, just not as much as rebels and Imperials.

I'm comparing a generic xwing (and I'm only using that as an example there are other generic that you can use, Ewing, bounty hunters etc)to the generic uBoats because when you look at what each ship has to offer there is clearly a point imbalance.

OK so let's look at the 33 pts uBoats. A generic firespray at the same cost is no where near competitive. Let's take a generic xwing, starviper. And load them to the gills so to match the point cost, again it's just no where near as viable.

Yes bounty hunters were competitive at one point, and of course at the time so wasnt Biggs,Luke and wedge. I believe it was wave 3, Tripple bounty hunters were a thing. They haven't been since.

How would any of these compare with a Black Squadron TIE Fighter with Crackshot? Another generic that sees widespread use nowadays.

Hell, just for the sake of it, how does a naked rookie x-wing compare in efficiency point-for-point to a naked Academy Pilot ?

It's the synergy that the associated slots on the JM5K allowing for amazing action efficiency is the problem in my eyes. For one focus you get to fire a 4 dice torpedo, with rerolls and a modification in case you miss out on that last hit. Deadeye-R4 Agromech-Guidance Chips are in crazy combo territory that no current Ordnance carrier can match. If it didn't have that EPT I think it would be a different story on the generic JM5K..

Regardless uBoats as current is not a direction I like seeing this game.

Instead of releasing ships that of the same standard as jumpmaster I'd rather see updates to old existing ships, which we have.

I'm comparing a generic xwing (and I'm only using that as an example there are other generic that you can use, Ewing, bounty hunters etc)to the generic uBoats because when you look at what each ship has to offer there is clearly a point imbalance.

OK so let's look at the 33 pts uBoats. A generic firespray at the same cost is no where near competitive. Let's take a generic xwing, starviper. And load them to the gills so to match the point cost, again it's just no where near as viable.

Yes bounty hunters were competitive at one point, and of course at the time so wasnt Biggs,Luke and wedge. I believe it was wave 3, Tripple bounty hunters were a thing. They haven't been since.

If wave 9 just releases new ships that make our old ones non existent then we're not really playing xwing anymore. Myself and many others have tons of ships we would all like to see get some use. Maybe they aren't used today, but is I'd like to think maybe tomorrow. If that's not the case, then that just makes it easier for me when I sell my stuff off. (i want to sell but I do enjoy this game, and have considered taking it with me when I move to another country, but if it gets to that point, parting with it will just be so much easier)

You seem to miss my point

Yes there are ships we don't use already. But having new ships come in that make it even harder to make use of the old ones is not a direction I like, and really seems like such a waste of time and our money releasing fixes for the advanced, bwings, awing etc. If new stuff is going to only make choosing them that much harder

It was shortly after release Alex stated that the jump master was going to have a hard counter. We don't know the facts, but maybe it was pushed through to meet a deadline, or they didn't realize until after the fact and when they started wave 9 they had an issue on hand. Why would Alex even feel it's necessary to suggest there is a fix coming. That is a first for this Game as they never came right out and said a counter would be following, even after the Phantom shenanigans.

I'm probably not correct. But you can't say I'm completely wrong either, unless you are actually working for ffg we will never know, but I take it as a **** up on their part. You don't have to agree with that. But thatsv how I read into it

I also find it funny that a following wave has to introduce a hard counter to a previous wave. Doesn't feel right to me. If the game is well designed, then it shouldnt be requiring hard counters so soon.

You say it just worked out that way, but I doubt it's coincidence that they are releasing a counter next wave just because it so happens to have worked out that way

As you said, generic firesprays haven't been competitive since like wave 3. And you're STILL comparing the uboat to generics that AREN'T COMPETITIVE. Loading up a generic x-wing or starviper to the gills makes them LESS efficient, not more. on already bad ships.

New ships that are better than bad ships don't made the bad ships any worse. New good ships don't make it any "harder" to take old bad ones. They just give you new options to play. The bad ships are bad no matter what else comes out. If they release new stuff that makes bad ships better, great, they can see play again. Otherwise, they stay exactly where they are.

Not sure how releasing fixes for old ships is a waste of money since they're bad ships. the whole point of "Fixes" is to make them not be bad any more. Look at the TIE Defender. overpriced and basically unused ship because it's just not good enough. Except Imperial Veterans actually makes it good. The same will presumably be the case for other fixes they release.

The way you're talking and trying to argue is basically saying new ships should be just as bad as existing bad ships to not make those worse. Except then no one buys or uses the new ships. You want to balance new stuff with actual existing competitive ships, not already dead ships.

As for alex stating shortly after release that wave 9 had a counter to jumpmasters, that's true. It's also at the same time (or it may even have been earlier) that he said wave 9 was already done and they were working on wave 10. There wasn't enough time between wave 8s release and him saying wave 9 was done for them to have designed a hard counter as a response. They have a way longer development cycle than that.

And until we actually see what said counter IS, there's not much point in speculating about it.

One question addressed to everyone thinking Contracted Scout shouldn't have an EPT, or Deadeye should be unique or anything else that would make triple Scout as we know it impossible:

In such a situation what could Scum field that would be able to fight on equal footing with Palp Aces, Crack Swarms and Rebel Regen/Stresshogs plus Dash Ghost builds?

Well let's say generics didn't have the EPT, and Jumpmasters only had the 1 missle slot, but the ships price was the same. I think it would still do quite well running 1 generic with an ace type squad, or fielding Dengar along with something else. I've seen players do quite well Dengar and boba fett/bossk.

Actually maybe that be little more balanced. Each faction would kind of have their own "go to ace squads." Maybe rebel aces such as poe and marnda wouldn't have been pushed out since fielding tripple uBoats wouldn't be so powerful, allowing 3 different flavors instead of two which we seem to have now

There's a long way from 'do quite well' from being able to take on Palp Aces and everything else regularly on equal footing.

Anecdotal evidence, but I have played Dengar/Wingman and while it can do decently against Palp Aces (eats the likes of Inquisitor with ease, struggles hard vs. stuff like Soontir with initiative) it struggles against most PWTs and TLTs.

IMO, without triple Jumpmasters Scum would be back to what they were before Wave 8: the weakest and least played faction of X-Wing. Not by such a large margin that you wouldn't see the occasional Scum tournament win or that they would be hopeless, just not as much as rebels and Imperials.

I'm comparing a generic xwing (and I'm only using that as an example there are other generic that you can use, Ewing, bounty hunters etc)to the generic uBoats because when you look at what each ship has to offer there is clearly a point imbalance.

OK so let's look at the 33 pts uBoats. A generic firespray at the same cost is no where near competitive. Let's take a generic xwing, starviper. And load them to the gills so to match the point cost, again it's just no where near as viable.

Yes bounty hunters were competitive at one point, and of course at the time so wasnt Biggs,Luke and wedge. I believe it was wave 3, Tripple bounty hunters were a thing. They haven't been since.

How would any of these compare with a Black Squadron TIE Fighter with Crackshot? Another generic that sees widespread use nowadays.

Hell, just for the sake of it, how does a naked rookie x-wing compare in efficiency point-for-point to a naked Academy Pilot ?

I do think even without triple uboat lists that dengar (and the new crew for the yv, etc) is good enough that we would have seen more scum than we did previously, but probbaly not as much as we are now. And even now it's not ALL uboats, just a lot of it. Kinda like brobots were almost all you saw before...

And yah, crack blacks (and greens) would be pushing out a lot of the other generics anyway.

Hell, just for the sake of it, how does a naked rookie x-wing compare in efficiency point-for-point to a naked Academy Pilot ?

I do think even without triple uboat lists that dengar (and the new crew for the yv, etc) is good enough that we would have seen more scum than we did previously, but probbaly not as much as we are now. And even now it's not ALL uboats, just a lot of it. Kinda like brobots were almost all you saw before...

And yah, crack blacks (and greens) would be pushing out a lot of the other generics anyway.

there are only two things the uboats pushed out that hadn't been thoroughly ruined by their own inefficiency/TLTs not being so inefficient

1. TLTs and TLT related stress control (r3-a2 and tactician)
2. Bombs (Especially conner nets; those just wreck palp aces but do jack v scouts)

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.OrIts8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnanceNo there is nothing wrong with that.The ship is OP.If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already areI want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own wayI don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few optionsEven folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcostedBroken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken roflI'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with thatAlso according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts. As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time). B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster. E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster. Ditto bombers. Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive. Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

I know people still use them, there is a bit of an exaggeration there.

I'm just saying, when you look cost wise, efficency wise, and how customizable it is, really the Jumpmaster just out classes all those things.

That's not to say if you don't use a jump master you won't win, but you can't deny the fact that for everything considering it does better what a lot of ships are suppose to do. I still use a variety of ships, but if I am building a scum squad, and I am looking for something that is competitive, jumpmaster are just too freaking awesome.

It really bothers me that this thing is better than bombers and punishers. It does what they are suppose to do 10 times better. Even ywings should be able to deliver a payload easier.

Definitely not the case in this game

I was just simply trying to make a point to someone that the Jumpmaster is not fine the way it is. The last thing we need in the game is for other ships to be released in the future that are of the sane caliber as the Jumpmaster, which will only push the ships I mentioned further on the back shelf.

Looking at an xwing for example, When I look at its potential dmg, it's total hp, it's dial, its upgrade options, I wonder other than flying it because I really want to make use of it, it's not that great of value when I can choose a ship that costs 4 more points and brings so much more options. Same with a ship like the imperial firespray. I'll use it because I like it, but again when I'm building a squad is it really worth the extra 8 pts? Now that I do have better options at my disposal.

Personally I don't like the direction it is going if that's the case, and I don't like the fact that ffg has to release a "hard counter" to something the following wave. To me that's almost admittance that they screwed up.

So, ultimately, are you just upset that the Bomber/Punisher are bad? You keep saying that the Jumpmaster is making bad ships look worse in comparison. But a bad ship is a bad ship.

The Jumpmaster is a good ship. The unfortunate side effect of the Jumpmaster is that is has nullified a lot of lists, much like Whisper did. But, no where near the same degree that Whisper did.

The Jump isn't the boogie man. Other than it's ability to shoot Torps very effectively it has a weak and underpowered main gun. It's a great blocker, but that's it's best weapon against ace ships. It's dial is really good, but the lack of green right moves can really be a thorn in the side.

I really does sound like you are just upset that they didn't make the generic Jump a terrible ship. It's better than the Bomber, Punisher, Scyk, Bwing, Khiraxz, T65, etc. It's not as good as Soontir Fel, Inq, Dash, etc.

Maybe a better topic would be, why isn't the Punisher or Bomber as good as Dash/Fel/Inq?

In my opinion the jumpmasters thing it´s a failure in design, or not enough game testing.

It would be understandable this kind of failures until wave 4 or 5 (for example the Phantom and the prenerf Decloaking), but it think the design team should have enough experience in wave 8.

It´s not normal for example that the fully combo-loaded jumpmaster is 33 points, with barrel roll. It´s exactly the same cost as a generic ps3 Imperial Firespray, and it´s not near in effectivity, fire power etc..

I could give more examples of ships with a similar point cost and less efficient by far, and also much more difficult to fly.

Of course a newbie player is not going to win a world championship, but for example I have seen a lot of unskilled players win shop tournaments with the triple jumpasters, and the say "I only move and throw dices". Same problem with the 4 TLT Y-wings... and they fixed it introducing the 3 jumpmasters.

Really, I think the game should get another way of doing things

I would actually be interested in seeing 3 firesprays match up against 3 uboats...

Firesprays have 1 more health, a better primary attack and evade action if they want it, uboats have torpedoes and barrel roll with a primary turret.

Depending on dice, a firespray might be able to survive 3 torpedoes (and as large base ships, they have a decent shot at being ablet ojust get into range 1 to avoid torpedo shots in the first place).

Same PS, though uboats can take an initiative bid if they want at the cost of losing a missile.

Hell, just for the sake of it, how does a naked rookie x-wing compare in efficiency point-for-point to a naked Academy Pilot ?

I do think even without triple uboat lists that dengar (and the new crew for the yv, etc) is good enough that we would have seen more scum than we did previously, but probbaly not as much as we are now. And even now it's not ALL uboats, just a lot of it. Kinda like brobots were almost all you saw before...

And yah, crack blacks (and greens) would be pushing out a lot of the other generics anyway.

there are only two things the uboats pushed out that hadn't been thoroughly ruined by their own inefficiency/TLTs not being so inefficient

1. TLTs and TLT related stress control (r3-a2 and tactician)
2. Bombs (Especially conner nets; those just wreck palp aces but do jack v scouts)

It did also push out rebel regen aces, which were basically all you saw for rebels in wave 7.

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is in the eye of the beholder . It has left rebels struggling to relearn what their fation can do outside of that...

...one focus you get to fire a 4 dice torpedo, with rerolls and a modification in case you miss out on that last hit. Deadeye-R4 Agromech-Guidance Chips are in crazy combo territory that no current Ordnance carrier can match. If it didn't have that EPT I think it would be a different story on the generic....

That's the key right there; an upgraded (no -military) small freighter way-outperforms specifically designed military bombers made for the sole purpose to bring torpedos into battle in the most efficient and deadly way possible. No. Just No. The EPT broke the meta in this base ship and broke logic and cannon. I'll bend a little, leave the EPT on the top dog; maybe it's believable that Dengar with all his wealth and experience can find the right Scum mechanics and experts to make his personal ship bring some amazing military punch like that to bear, but not basic Contracted Scouts. Just say No.

This is Star Wars. It's an established fact that advanced military technology is available from the shady guy at the local cantina. What dedicated military bombers do is deliver payloads cheaply.

With Veterans (a,release that was supposed to be closer to wave 8, I think), TIE Bombers are bringing their own heavily modified ordnance shots. They aren't as tough or flexible as Scouts, but they're cheaper, and hit about as hard, and get a small base, have better PS, and look cooler.

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.OrIts8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnanceNo there is nothing wrong with that.The ship is OP.If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already areI want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own wayI don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few optionsEven folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcostedBroken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken roflI'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with thatAlso according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts. As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time). B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster. E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster. Ditto bombers. Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive. Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

I know people still use them, there is a bit of an exaggeration there.

I'm just saying, when you look cost wise, efficency wise, and how customizable it is, really the Jumpmaster just out classes all those things.

That's not to say if you don't use a jump master you won't win, but you can't deny the fact that for everything considering it does better what a lot of ships are suppose to do. I still use a variety of ships, but if I am building a scum squad, and I am looking for something that is competitive, jumpmaster are just too freaking awesome.

It really bothers me that this thing is better than bombers and punishers. It does what they are suppose to do 10 times better. Even ywings should be able to deliver a payload easier.

Definitely not the case in this game

I was just simply trying to make a point to someone that the Jumpmaster is not fine the way it is. The last thing we need in the game is for other ships to be released in the future that are of the sane caliber as the Jumpmaster, which will only push the ships I mentioned further on the back shelf.

Looking at an xwing for example, When I look at its potential dmg, it's total hp, it's dial, its upgrade options, I wonder other than flying it because I really want to make use of it, it's not that great of value when I can choose a ship that costs 4 more points and brings so much more options. Same with a ship like the imperial firespray. I'll use it because I like it, but again when I'm building a squad is it really worth the extra 8 pts? Now that I do have better options at my disposal.

Personally I don't like the direction it is going if that's the case, and I don't like the fact that ffg has to release a "hard counter" to something the following wave. To me that's almost admittance that they screwed up.

So, ultimately, are you just upset that the Bomber/Punisher are bad? You keep saying that the Jumpmaster is making bad ships look worse in comparison. But a bad ship is a bad ship.

The Jumpmaster is a good ship. The unfortunate side effect of the Jumpmaster is that is has nullified a lot of lists, much like Whisper did. But, no where near the same degree that Whisper did.

The Jump isn't the boogie man. Other than it's ability to shoot Torps very effectively it has a weak and underpowered main gun. It's a great blocker, but that's it's best weapon against ace ships. It's dial is really good, but the lack of green right moves can really be a thorn in the side.

I really does sound like you are just upset that they didn't make the generic Jump a terrible ship. It's better than the Bomber, Punisher, Scyk, Bwing, Khiraxz, T65, etc. It's not as good as Soontir Fel, Inq, Dash, etc.

Maybe a better topic would be, why isn't the Punisher or Bomber as good as Dash/Fel/Inq?

I know the Jumpmaster is a great ship.

I just think it's a little much.

With certain ships the way they are, I think they need a boost, not a push back. It was hard enough to justify using specific ships, adding a ship with everything that a jump has is just a little much in my opinion

For the record, I don't think it's broken. I think it's close, but not quite. I've won and lost using at least one jump, and I've beaten them more than I've lost to them, but doesn't change my opinion.

Your right the bomber and punishers are not great, that's why we don't see them. I'll be the first to admit, but the Jumpmaster should not be better at what they are suppose to do imo.

I don't think they should release broken ships by any means (meaning worse off than current xwing), having something new is great, but if a specific ships roll is something like firing off ordnance, (punisher) to me it doesn't make any sense having a ship where it's role is not firing off ordnance. (freighter)

IMHO the problem would be solved in the Contracted Scout did not have an EPT. It would still be very good and pack a lot of punch, but it would need to work a bit for those target locks.

I am still surprised that the combo of Deadeye + R4 Agromech + chimps in triplicate did not come up during playtesting and if it did, the designers decided it was ok.

a bit on the line regarding Krynn's "the jumpmaster is a great ship" and "close to broken"

the thing is I can't tell if the JM5k is too good, or if the JM5k is good and most everything else is just so much utter ass

like I posted over in the Mathwing about JM5ks thread, I had a recent game wherein I ran into a horrible string of dice:

It started with an unmodified Dark Curse putting damage on focused Xizor through his **** ability

It peaked at a recently stygiumed 1-hull Echo rolling 3 naked evades

"why!?!??!?!?!?"

And then the ride concluded with my opponent rolling 5 unmodified hits to my 3 blank evade dice that left 4-hull (with ability active) Xizor dead for the first time in literally ever since I've run him and forced me to fodder the bumpmaster to fry echo

so I'm left with a torpscout (deadeye, proton, extras which are spent, r4 aggro; 4lom) [34] against Whisper and Dark Curse. I had managed to clip Whisper to half health on the turn he fried Xizor, because he had gone through a debris field and thus couldn't recloak, but still I expect to be thoroughly screwed even without the magic dice

I was thinking of the ships that the Torpscout used to be in this list, namely a pair of Feedback Z-95s, and I realized that if it were them I'd have basically automatically lost the game

So, we get to this:

and the range 1 4-lom R4 aggromech PWT annihilates cloaked Whisper

and I take a moment to blink

that Jumpmaster was the only generic pilot that, in all my time playing X-wing, managed to kill a whisper in the late game both before and after the errata

now technically the PWT is whisper's counter, but we're talking a PS 3 2-dice primary here! still, I have to keep thinking back to the pair of Zs and how utterly worthless they would have been in this same scenario. At that point, I have to wonder if it's the Jm5k being crazy or if other generics need to get on his level

Honestly? That was just some bad luck. I've had Whisper killed by all kinds of stuff (including a brand-new, focused and cloaked Whisper being one-shotted by Wes Janson), including generics. The highlight was rolling 6 dice (cloak, range, asteroid) and coming up with 1 eye and 5 blanks.

well, "bad luck" (which, after what I went through, is bull) against r4 modifiers and 4lom

my god, r4 modifiers with 4lom is just one of the best experiences in the game

never leave home without 4lom, especially if you're like me and you note how much focus your opponent rolls after you've ionized yourself

The Jump isn't the boogie man. Other than it's ability to shoot Torps very effectively it has a weak and underpowered main gun. It's a great blocker, but that's it's best weapon against ace ships. It's dial is really good, but the lack of green right moves can really be a thorn in the side.

The Jumpmaster:

A: Is the best ordnance carrier in the game

B: Is the best blocker in the game

C: Has one of the best dials in the game, with barrel roll to supplement

D: Has a PWT (its gun is neither weak nor underpowered. If you're leaning on the 2-die attack while flying a scout, one of two things has happened: you've been outflown or you've expended your munitions. If the former, oh well. If the latter, a double modified 360 2 die shot is enough to seal the deal against anything other than a turtled thruster ace)

E: Also, if you feel like it, can be a double-repositioning triple action jerk. Not as offensively capable as Dash, and lacking his ability, but on the flip side no donut hole

So, yeah. It's too good for its cost.

"best blocker" is stretching it a little

it's a **** fantastic blocker, but unless you invest in the morbidly expensive EU you don't have access to the most disgusting blocks in the game (namely large ships with boosts; A-wings come close though)

the lack really becomes apparent against other Jm5ks. You really have to fen-angle an approach such that they're funneled down a straight line and into where you end up after a 4-foward, otherwise you've got a dead bumpmaster on your hands

meanwhile, the prototype pilot can come screeching in from beyond range 3 to clog up table space and costs almost half as much as the most basic bumpmaster (int agent, feedback, adapt Scout @28)

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.OrIts8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnanceNo there is nothing wrong with that.The ship is OP.If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already areI want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own wayI don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few optionsEven folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcostedBroken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken roflI'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with thatAlso according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts. As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time). B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster. E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster. Ditto bombers. Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive. Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

I know people still use them, there is a bit of an exaggeration there.

I'm just saying, when you look cost wise, efficency wise, and how customizable it is, really the Jumpmaster just out classes all those things.

That's not to say if you don't use a jump master you won't win, but you can't deny the fact that for everything considering it does better what a lot of ships are suppose to do. I still use a variety of ships, but if I am building a scum squad, and I am looking for something that is competitive, jumpmaster are just too freaking awesome.

It really bothers me that this thing is better than bombers and punishers. It does what they are suppose to do 10 times better. Even ywings should be able to deliver a payload easier.

Definitely not the case in this game

I was just simply trying to make a point to someone that the Jumpmaster is not fine the way it is. The last thing we need in the game is for other ships to be released in the future that are of the sane caliber as the Jumpmaster, which will only push the ships I mentioned further on the back shelf.

Looking at an xwing for example, When I look at its potential dmg, it's total hp, it's dial, its upgrade options, I wonder other than flying it because I really want to make use of it, it's not that great of value when I can choose a ship that costs 4 more points and brings so much more options. Same with a ship like the imperial firespray. I'll use it because I like it, but again when I'm building a squad is it really worth the extra 8 pts? Now that I do have better options at my disposal.

Personally I don't like the direction it is going if that's the case, and I don't like the fact that ffg has to release a "hard counter" to something the following wave. To me that's almost admittance that they screwed up.

So, ultimately, are you just upset that the Bomber/Punisher are bad? You keep saying that the Jumpmaster is making bad ships look worse in comparison. But a bad ship is a bad ship.

The Jumpmaster is a good ship. The unfortunate side effect of the Jumpmaster is that is has nullified a lot of lists, much like Whisper did. But, no where near the same degree that Whisper did.

The Jump isn't the boogie man. Other than it's ability to shoot Torps very effectively it has a weak and underpowered main gun. It's a great blocker, but that's it's best weapon against ace ships. It's dial is really good, but the lack of green right moves can really be a thorn in the side.

I really does sound like you are just upset that they didn't make the generic Jump a terrible ship. It's better than the Bomber, Punisher, Scyk, Bwing, Khiraxz, T65, etc. It's not as good as Soontir Fel, Inq, Dash, etc.

Maybe a better topic would be, why isn't the Punisher or Bomber as good as Dash/Fel/Inq?

Well I don't like the fact that a ship does better what other ships are specifically designed to do.

I know the Jumpmaster is a great ship.

I just think it's a little much.

With certain ships the way they are, I think they need a boost, not a push back. It was hard enough to justify using specific ships, adding a ship with everything that a jump has is just a little much in my opinion

For the record, I don't think it's broken. I think it's close, but not quite. I've won and lost using at least one jump, and I've beaten them more than I've lost to them, but doesn't change my opinion.

Your right the bomber and punishers are not great, that's why we don't see them. I'll be the first to admit, but the Jumpmaster should not be better at what they are suppose to do imo.

I don't think they should release broken ships by any means (meaning worse off than current xwing), having something new is great, but if a specific ships roll is something like firing off ordnance, (punisher) to me it doesn't make any sense having a ship where it's role is not firing off ordnance. (freighter)

What a ship should and shouldn't be good at is really in the eye of the beholder.

But, I will say that both the Punisher and Bomber are infinitely better at dropping BOMBS than the Jumpmaster is. So, are the Punisher and Bomber ordnance platforms or bombers? Maybe they are supposed to be bombers that happen to be able to carry Torps and missiles. The point is a ship is good at what you can make it do. Don't get so caught up on the fluff of what "should" be the best ordnance platform.

"best blocker" is stretching it a little

it's a **** fantastic blocker, but unless you invest in the morbidly expensive EU you don't have access to the most disgusting blocks in the game (namely large ships with boosts; A-wings come close though)

the lack really becomes apparent against other Jm5ks. You really have to fen-angle an approach such that they're funneled down a straight line and into where you end up after a 4-foward, otherwise you've got a dead bumpmaster on your hands

meanwhile, the prototype pilot can come screeching in from beyond range 3 to clog up table space and costs almost half as much as the most basic bumpmaster (int agent, feedback, adapt Scout @28)

Stoll though he got 4 out of 5 correct.

Actually I give him 4.5.

.5 because it is still a **** good blocker

It is a **** good blocker

Seriously?

That's a good load of b.s right there

They are designed ordnance carriers

It's not just fluff. It's blatantly obvious what their rolls are suppose to be in this game, and ordnance is one of them. The Jumpmaster should not be better at that than they are

Sounds like a piss poor of an excuse to me