Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!

I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).

We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.

Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.

Or

Its8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnance

No there is nothing wrong with that.

The ship is OP.

If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

Trading a hard 1-turn for a hard 3-turn and losing S-loops would make the ship a joke? I think you're overreacting.

No hard-1s and no white turnaround move means it can't block or maintain it's forward arc nearly as effectively. Those are two of its three most powerful tools, and the two tools that are necessary to win in the mid and late game, so seriously reducing them makes the list a one-trick pony.

If they where +2 pts I think all would be well

If they where +2 pts I think all would be well

You'd just be suffering pretty much the same defeats to Scout-Scout-Zuckuss in that case.

It's not a points correction issue, it's a dial correction issue. IF there was something to correct, which arguably there isn't.

At +2 points you could still run effective triple scouts. People have done well with as low as 96 points AFAIK.

Something like scout (Deadeye, Overclocked, Plasma), Scout (Deadeye, Overclocked, Plasma, EM), Scout (Deadeye, Overclocked, Proton, Boba) comes in at 96 and should still deliver the same punch.

În order to really hinder triple Scout, you'd need a 3 point increase, but at 28 point base you might just kill it competitively altogether.

Maybe if the white S-Loop was red? The action economy is what takes them from dangerous (where they belong) to extreme. IMO anyway.

Hail hail hail

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

Sure, and let's all hope for more pre-errata phantoms while we're at it. Those were really successful!

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

Sure, and let's all hope for more pre-errata phantoms while we're at it. Those were really successful!

The phantom was on another level to this, and you're making a strawman argument too. Making more ships with the same issues as the generic YTs will not solve anything. Making more ships undercosted WILL help, as long as the ability is there to errata their costs when playtesting fails to account for a massively OP build. However, Jumpmasters are not this 'massively OP build' that everyone loses to. They can be beaten by swarms, aces, and even by dash & lothal builds (granted it's hard in that case but I've seen it done). It's just a meta build that both low skill and high skill players like. It has a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling, so good players can be really good with it.

Maybe if the white S-Loop was red? The action economy is what takes them from dangerous (where they belong) to extreme. IMO anyway.

A 'fixed' Jumpmaster dial probably leaves that white sloop as their party trick, but makes the right turns red and perhaps the 1 left turn white (or removes the two 1 turns entirely).

The jumpmaster is a poorly designed ship on multiple levels, and the retarded dial is a big one. Here's a quick fix for the dial. Turn all of the green moves white, turn all of the white moves red, remove all of the red moves. Left banks become green.

That would be far too much. But it really should have had more red maneuvers to the right than just the S-loop (AKA the move that's normally red on ships with symmetrical dials anyway). 1 hard turn especially.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I don't think you understand just how **** good the dial is.

For example, compare the Jumpmaster's dial to the VCX-100's from the same wave. The VCX is also a large based ship. It has red 1 hard turns, no green hard turns, no white S-loop. The only thing it really has over the Jumpmaster is a pair of red 3 hard turns.

And despite all that, the VCX is still a competitive ship that shows up in top 8 lists.

Maybe if the white S-Loop was red? The action economy is what takes them from dangerous (where they belong) to extreme. IMO anyway.

A 'fixed' Jumpmaster dial probably leaves that white sloop as their party trick, but makes the right turns red and perhaps the 1 left turn white (or removes the two 1 turns entirely).

I think just making the 1 and 2 hard right turns red would be enough. Definitely don't remove the 1 turns entirely; the Jumpmaster lacks 3 turns, so removing the 1 turns as well heavily restricts it.

Though this is all just speculation over what would have been better in hindsight. There is no way FFG is ever issuing dial errata.

The VCX comes with about half a dozen ways to ignore stress or turn it into an advantage. They also have access to better turrets than the Scout's primary. The red on the dial is only a problem if you want it to be.

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!

I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).

We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.

Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.

Or

Its8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnance

No there is nothing wrong with that.

The ship is OP.

If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own way

I don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few options

Even folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcosted

Broken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.

You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.

There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.

Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)

I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken rofl

I'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with that

Also according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?

Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.

Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.

Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.

Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage.

Hmm, I'm surprised to find myself disagreeing with you Bio ... It's a new and somewhat disconcerting feeling!

The generic loadout includes Agromech, an upgrade that really increases your action efficiency. Chances are pretty good that a JM5k has a TL if denied an action. At PS3 it's also pretty hard to achieve that denial.

As for desperately needing an arc, are we still talking about the JM5k? Its range-1 focus/tl 360 attack has to be feared by any ship not packing 3 greens and AT. A tie bomber desperately needs arc and action. A Khiraxz desperatley needs arc and action. I suspect that the Jumpy is actually better off than most other ships in this department.

Compared to a Falcon or Decimator with TL/Focus? It is decent, sure, but not something to be feared necessarily.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.

Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.

Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

Of the list you just mentioned, Brobots, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palp and Trip Scouts, the only list that I don't enjoy flying against is trip Scouts. All those other lists, even Fat Turrets, take a good amount of skill to fly in order to win.

On that list, excluding trip Scouts, the two most dangerous that I often see are Brobots and Fat Turrets. I don't mind Brobots because they actually have to get you in their front firing arc to kill you, so as long as you don't fly straight at them you cam make that a challenge.

The biggest issue is that Scouts have an Elite slot. First, for game balance issues, and second for continuity issues. Sorry, someone in the bottom 30% of all pilots in terms of skill shouldn't have something called "elite" anything attached to them. I mean, just think how flying trip Scouts would change without access to Deadeye. You'd actually have to deal with your crappy pilot skill and get into range to Target Lock before the enemy closed the distance and got out of range 2-3 of the torps. You'd have to do things like flying one of them forward as a blocker so the other two could get off shots. Otherwise known as strategy.

FFG isn't going to change the ship now that it's out. But I'd bet a lot of money that it wouldn't be drawing the ire that it currently does if it simply didn't have an EPT slot and had one torp slot instead of two. If it came out like that, I'd be fine with the cost, even for a PWT with an insane dial. Minus an EPT and a torp, it would just be another cool, versatile and cheap low cost ship. But it wouldn't be a complete game changer as it is now.

You can easily tell that the designers KNOW they F-ed up with that design. Just look at how careful they are being designing the newer ships. Mobile Aux arc on the Ghost is a DIRECT result of the borked job they did on the JM3k. So are the zero point cost titles that have the cost baked into the price of the ship. It's make sure that you can't find some sort of exploit that doesn't use the title and takes advantage of the cheaper cost.

The thing that I loved about this game was that you could play tons of games and never play the same list twice. Trip JM3ks kind of killed that in my opinion. But I honestly don't have to worry about that since I never play comp and no one in my group is going to bother buying 3 of the same ship just to beat one of us.

Compared to a Falcon or Decimator with TL/Focus? It is decent, sure, but not something to be feared necessarily.

Right. The JM has a good weapon for a ship that costs a lot less. For a 33 Point ship, it's not very strong overall, and very bad against a lot of targets. It will get the job done, but only in conjunction with its other abilities.

Again, I'm not saying the Scout is a good baseline. It's distinctly more powerful than a number of other ships per point. It's just not so powerful that it requires specific hard counters or good luck to beat it. It has weaknesses exploitable by many lists that take the time to prepare for them. In my book, that means you deal with it.

Jumpmasters are coolest ships designed by FFG so far. So many competetive builds, so many options, so much joy!

I usually don't fly them - despite having them and being Scum player - only because I find even more enjoyable to walk against the crowd But I fully understand ppl who fly them. They are great (i mean ships ).

We should talk how to make other ships equally cool, not how JM5K are bad, or ovepowered. They are not

Sure....big base ship, 9 hp, can barrel roll, take astro, crew. Elite, two missles, modification, a pwt at that guaranteed 4 hits, at a base cost of 25 pts.

Just 4 more pts over a ship That's small base, has 5 hp, has 5 hp, no elite, cannot barrel roll, no elite, no crew.

Or

Its8 8 pts cheaper than a ship with 10 hp, no elite, has an rear arc, one crew, no droid slot, no illicit, worse dial, can't load as much ordnance

No there is nothing wrong with that.

The ship is OP.

If you can't see that well idk what to say.

Mate, you are comparing JM5K to overcosted, broken, never-used ships or to the the ships that fits different roles in the squad. Do we want more failures like ie. generic YT-2400? Or maybe we want more successes like Jumpmasters5000? I vote for the latter

I want ffg to release ships that doesn't alienat other ships more than they already are

I want to see a game where all ships are able to bring something to the table in their own way

I don't want to see a game where picking 1 ship is one of only very few options

Even folks who do like using uBoats stated it's a very powerful ship, mainly most has said it's overcosted

Broken? Apparently you don't understand what broken is if you don't think the Jumpmaster is near broken or overpowered.(for the record I'm not saying it is broken, but it sure as hell isn't fine as it is) Generic xwing are not broken. They are underpowered with what's available now.

You may think it's fine, but that's just your opinion. Hell I believe most even those who do like the ship say it's overcosted.

There is something completely wrong with this game if the Jumpmaster is now going to be the new standard. As you stated you think these ships are failures. No many were doing great until the Jumpmaster came along pushing out a lot of different builds to where now we are seeing more limited builds do well. That is not healthy for this game.

Maybe you enjoy playing jumpmaster 5000 but most of us want to play xwing. A game where we have more than 2 options. (yes I'm exaggerating a bit, but it's also the truth)

I guess if we had it your way, there is no sense trying to update the xwing. May as well leave bombers in your tray. Firespray, why bother, ywing? Poe? Any T-70 ship, starviper, scyks, bwings, Ewings. Why even bother look at making a build with any of those ships competitive since the Jumpmaster is just so **** good for its value. So all these ships and pilots are broken rofl

I'll stick to my aces, you stick to your jumpmaster. Sounds like a fun healthy game....right, have fun with that

Also according to your last sentence you want to see more ships like the Jumpmaster?

Seriously? So all those other ships that everyone had can only become more obsolete.

Thank heavens your nowhere near the design team. Xwing would surely fail if that was the route they take

I've won the vast majority of the games I've played since wave 8 released, and I've never once flown a u-boat. I've used jumpmasters some, but only used the scout as a bumpmaster, and have flown all 3 of the named pilots with various (non-uboat) loadouts.

As for other ships, I've still been playing with (and winning) the starviper. I'm currently 5-3 with a scyk list (and the first 2 games were losses partly due to having to learn how to fly the list). Another local guy has been flying scyks for the last couple months, went top 4 in our regional, and almost made the cut in another regional (2 different games he had the opponents ships at 1 hull, would have won in another round or two but lost on points at time).

B-wings haven't been used since TLT released. Completely unrelated to the jumpmaster.

E-wings have basically NEVER seen generic use. Unrelated to the jumpmaster.

Ditto bombers.

Firespray hasn't really ever been seen regularly. Occasionally in wave 6, maybe wave 7, but was never top tier competitive.

Poe and T70s did indeed get pushed out, I'll give you that much. And the y-wing.

I'm in the camp that things JMs are undercosted, by maybe a point or two. This makes them very good, but very much not game breaking. Yes, they have an amazing dial. Yes, they're very efficient, with great upgrade options. When discussing the dial, especially, though, I think people are not fully taking into account the limitations of a large based ship that desperately needs an arc and action to do damage. If the Jumpmaster had dial like a T65, Contracted Scouts, at their current price, would be a joke. It would be a noob-stomper list, because it wouldn retain the great alpha strike, but lack much more of its ability to actually contend in the later phases of the game where it's won or lost against solid players.

I think that it's obvious that U-Boats are OP. I just think that they're about as OP as a bunch of the other top tier wave 4 and beyond power creep things.

Like Brobots, Phantoms, Corran, Fat Turrets, Acewings, Super Dash, Palpatine, etc.

Ever since the design team changed during wave 4 there has been a second tier of ships that outshines all the wave 3-ish Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such. I just see U-Boats as another one of those "power creep, post Joustwing" tier ships. In fact, out of all of those I mentioned besides for Brobots, they're the least game ruining and play the most like the game originally played before wave 4. At least you have to point your ship at something to hit it and they don't have high PS repositioning.

"Joustwing stuff like Kirahxzs and such."

You mean the wave 7 ship designed by the same design team you're complaining about that was DOA?

It's just the completely unneccessary EPT on the generic one.

One question addressed to everyone thinking Contracted Scout shouldn't have an EPT, or Deadeye should be unique or anything else that would make triple Scout as we know it impossible:

In such a situation what could Scum field that would be able to fight on equal footing with Palp Aces, Crack Swarms and Rebel Regen/Stresshogs plus Dash Ghost builds?

One question addressed to everyone thinking Contracted Scout shouldn't have an EPT, or Deadeye should be unique or anything else that would make triple Scout as we know it impossible:

In such a situation what could Scum field that would be able to fight on equal footing with Palp Aces, Crack Swarms and Rebel Regen/Stresshogs plus Dash Ghost builds?

Good question; I'm no squad master let me tell you, but I love studying players, ships and outcomes. I guess if many had their way and had the Contracted Scout nerfed, ah-la the Phantom in some way that made using three in a 100 point game impossible, what then? Without the triple-Scout list Scum would have to rely on their top-dogs I guess, field Dengar and Bossk together?

Dengar/Wingman and Brobots are the other two highest-tier Scum lists I think.

Dengar/Bossk and Dengar/Latts are both solid.