Idea: The hyper defense of Palp Aces and Regen ships makes the hyper offense of Jumpmasters and Crackshot swarms a necessity.

Palp aces lists fall very quickly to ships with good stress mechanics. But as soon as you start building these into your list, because they are of diminished effectiveness against JMs, you're now at a large disadvantage.

examples:

B-wing Nera with flechettes,

Tactician K-wings, shuttles, etc.

R3A2 stressbot

R3A2 X-wings

Rebel captive on decimators,

Mara Jade shuttles

Connor nets

etc.

etc.

JMs pulverize all of these things with ease, making crackswarms and palp aces proliferate in their absence.

Nope, just like I hardly respect anyone who uses Palpatine or phantoms. I respect A-wing, TIE advanced, TIE interceptor, non TLT hawk and Y-wing, and a few others. Why would I respect them? Because they tripped and ended up with a free couple dice free shots.

I haven't seen this much hilarious salt in one place since I was at a comedy gig on a salt flat.

10/10. Would watch people cry again.

Idea: The hyper defense of Palp Aces and Regen ships makes the hyper offense of Jumpmasters and Crackshot swarms a necessity.

Palp aces lists fall very quickly to ships with good stress mechanics. But as soon as you start building these into your list, because they are of diminished effectiveness against JMs, you're now at a large disadvantage.

examples:

B-wing Nera with flechettes,

Tactician K-wings, shuttles, etc.

R3A2 stressbot

R3A2 X-wings

Rebel captive on decimators,

Mara Jade shuttles

Connor nets

etc.

etc.

JMs pulverize all of these things with ease, making crackswarms and palp aces proliferate in their absence.

Fun fact:

Palp Aces crushes all of the Jumpmaster counters.

Palp Aces is just as, if not more broken than U-Boats. I don't mind people calling U-Boats OP, because they are. What I hate is people also not acknowledging that Palp Aces is just as bad for the game's meta.

It's like a Poe Han player complaining about how quad TLT requires no skill and ruins the game. When TLT was first spoiled, the local Super Dash player played against quad TLT and lost hard on Vassal. He then started complaining about it. OH, I THOUGHT TURRETS TAKE SKILL AND CARE ABOUT MANEUVERING AND DON'T RUIN THE GAME.

Now, we have a bunch of players who play(ed) lists based around regen ships or ships that are just flat out invincible (Palp Aces) buttmad that their ships can actually die. They complain about how point and shoot U-Boats are as they just do green hard turns and 3 actions every turn with the ability to reactively maneuver with their boosts and BR's. You have no right to speak on this matter, and you had this coming.

I guess my question to the imperial ace hate folks is this.

I can understand not liking something.

I don't like uBoats. I've established that.

But why are Imperial Aces so prevalent?

Why are they doing well?

It's because of the uBoats.

They pushed out a lot of stuff that put the fear of God into the ace lists.

So if players hate the ace lists because they are everywhere, then shouldn't you also hate the uBoats?

Since they are the ones who seem to be letting the ace squads survive?

As someone else in this thread said. Pre wave 8 the meta during store championship seemed a lot more diverse.

Then wave 8 happened.

I still don't understand how someone can make the argument that pal aces requires no skill.

I go back to my give a new player both statement.

Which would a rookie xwing do better with?

Which is more forgiving?

Aces can be difficult, but you really need to be 3 turns ahead of your opponent to do well.

UBoats do not require that much planning.

There needs to be some for sure, but your not going to lose a game if you accidentally hit a rock or bump.

Also pal aces is 3 ships. Same as uBoats.

Lose one and your feeling it. It just got a lot harder

Lose 1 uBoats, you still have two more

The effects of losing one are not felt as badly if you lose fel, Vader or the shuttle,or inquisitor, or whisper.

Then there the mental aspect.

Ace squads your doing some real hard thinking.

You can't afford to mess up.

Do this for 6-10 hours in a day and your more likely to make a mistake. Which again skill shows.

UBoats are not as mentally exhausting. Your not looking 3 turns ahead every game.

Fun fact:

Palp Aces crushes all of the Jumpmaster counters.

I don't believe that's true (I had a list that was good against Jumpasters and worked against Palp aces as well)

I think that the main grudge against uboats (as well as TLT Ywings) is that it's boring to play against them. Palp aces.. it requires high level of skill. And any mistake (or an unlucky roll) will cost you a game.

To be fair, it's not like I actively disrespect them. But when the game is designed such that in many cases I feel like I'm playing against an AI on one hand and pulling on a one armed bandit with the other, I'm not going to extend anything to the player that was more due to the design choices of the producing company. It's not the players fault for trying to win with what is absurdly optimal and obviously works. I am not obligated to respect someone who can repeat the success of others. I respect innovators, which these players are not. I respect those with a well thought out and intricately woven game plan, which these player types are not. I respect people who think outside the box, and live on the edge of cockpit seat and at the will of their own careful planning and from time to time the dice fates. Someone who shows up with an automatic result machine is just an obstacle that I may or may not get past. It is for those reasons that after Nationals I'm leaving competitive play, and resigning from hosting events after father's day game night on Monday the 20th. My time is valuable and I have none to spend on a product put out by a bad batch of game designers. Recognizing of course that they have done much good in their efforts, but consistently failed as well in the past several releases. And the upcoming release announcements don't restore my faith.

Fun fact:Palp Aces crushes all of the Jumpmaster counters.

I don't believe that's true (I had a list that was good against Jumpasters and worked against Palp aces as well)I think that the main grudge against uboats (as well as TLT Ywings) is that it's boring to play against them. Palp aces.. it requires high level of skill. And any mistake (or an unlucky roll) will cost you a game.

With the ability to turn blank blank focus on THREE agility dice into 4 evade results, I don't see how a Palp Aces player is vulnerable to bad luck. All you have to do with Palp Aces is not make big stupid mistakes. As long as you don't rock yourself in the initial engagement or get blocked in front of an entire Crackswarm you'll be fine. You have the defenses to just run away when your opponent is in a position to block your obvious 1/2 green hard, if your opponent chases you they're not damaging you and the other Ace can just swoop in.

If you play against someone who just plays without mistakes, they'll win every time with Palp Aces. All you have to do is be a non-idiot to do well with Palp Aces.

If you're seeking love and praise in X-wing, let me suggest you are playing the wrong game. Go seek a cooperative game that provides participation awards.

What is good in X-wing? To disintegrate your enemies, watch their debris clouds expand before you, and let cold hard vacuum silence their lamentations.

Fun fact:Palp Aces crushes all of the Jumpmaster counters.

I don't believe that's true (I had a list that was good against Jumpasters and worked against Palp aces as well)I think that the main grudge against uboats (as well as TLT Ywings) is that it's boring to play against them. Palp aces.. it requires high level of skill. And any mistake (or an unlucky roll) will cost you a game.

With the ability to turn blank blank focus on THREE agility dice into 4 evade results, I don't see how a Palp Aces player is vulnerable to bad luck. All you have to do with Palp Aces is not make big stupid mistakes. As long as you don't rock yourself in the initial engagement or get blocked in front of an entire Crackswarm you'll be fine. You have the defenses to just run away when your opponent is in a position to block your obvious 1/2 green hard, if your opponent chases you they're not damaging you and the other Ace can just swoop in.

If you play against someone who just plays without mistakes, they'll win every time with Palp Aces. All you have to do is be a non-idiot to do well with Palp Aces.

Lets get Palp out of the picture first (it's pretty easy to do). Once he's out, the luck matters. In one of my games Soontir didn't dodge a range-3 shot through an asteroid from a bomber. (He spent his focus before though).

What 3 PWT ships won? As a person who only plays Arc Dodgers I declare PWTs OP

I wasn't going to even chime in on this topic, but I figured what the hell. I won Hoth with Triple Uboats. It was far from easy. My matches in the top 8 were against arguably the toughest matches triple jumps can face.

There is a total misconception about the list. If you fly it with only the alpha strike in mind, you will lose a lot of games. At best the triple jumps get 6 good shots. Just 6. And it is not usually possible to kill even a tie fighter with just one of those shots. In addition to those 6 shots, they have a 2 attack turret. 2 attack is laughably bad these days. And autothrustered ships are essentially immune to that 2 attack turret shot.

In order to actually win with a triple jump list, you have to know how to block and disrupt your opponent's plans. If you can block, and also maximize your shots, you will do well. But, that requires skill. You have to know which ships you need to sacrifice to execute those blocks, and plan ahead for the torpedo shots.

I can't directly speak to what's happening in other parts of the world, but here in the US, triple jumps are not dominating. I've been to 4 regionals this season, and triple jumps did not win any of them. In fact, I don't believe that any triple jump lists made the final table.

The offensive output of triple jumps are not the strongest in the game. PTL Dash can take a 4 attack TL+F shot on EVERY turn and in a 360 degree arc. Whisper can take a 4 TL + F shot (FCS) on every turn after the first shot on an enemy, 5 attack at Range 1. Ghosts can take nearly the same shot as Whisper, but also have a TLT or Autoblaster turret to cover themselves when they don't get that 4 attack shot. All of those ships have arguably better offensive output that the jump masters. The difference is that there are 3 jumps and only 1 Dash or Whisper, and I get that. But, if the Jumps misuse those torpedoes, they can't win the game. Dash and Whisper can take a bad shot and fully recover.

Triple Jumps are BEATABLE.

Triple Jumps are a strong list.

Triple Jumps do dominate a number of list types.

If triple jumps were as easy, skill less, and dominate as some think, they'd be winning with a much high frequency than they actually are.

I'm just saying.

To be fair, it's not like I actively disrespect them. But when the game is designed such that in many cases I feel like I'm playing against an AI on one hand and pulling on a one armed bandit with the other, I'm not going to extend anything to the player that was more due to the design choices of the producing company. It's not the players fault for trying to win with what is absurdly optimal and obviously works. I am not obligated to respect someone who can repeat the success of others. I respect innovators, which these players are not. I respect those with a well thought out and intricately woven game plan, which these player types are not. I respect people who think outside the box, and live on the edge of cockpit seat and at the will of their own careful planning and from time to time the dice fates. Someone who shows up with an automatic result machine is just an obstacle that I may or may not get past. It is for those reasons that after Nationals I'm leaving competitive play, and resigning from hosting events after father's day game night on Monday the 20th. My time is valuable and I have none to spend on a product put out by a bad batch of game designers. Recognizing of course that they have done much good in their efforts, but consistently failed as well in the past several releases. And the upcoming release announcements don't restore my faith.

Actually I feel same way.

This may be my last tournament after regionals.

I guess if I won I'd try make the trip to nationals, but I know I won't win.

Personally I'm getting tired of flying against competitive, and trying to be competitive.

I want to go back to fun builds. Epic play. Missions.

Not worry about flavor of the month, and trying to get around that.

I don't think I'm a bad player. Not great. I have won a couple store championship, and other tournaments, but I grow tiresome of it

Triple Jumps are BEATABLE.

Triple Jumps are a strong list.

Triple Jumps do dominate a number of list types.

I totally agree with everything above and do believe that you need to be a very good pilot to win a major tournament with triple jumpmasters (or anything else). My personal problem with them is that they are boring to play against. Essentially you have two rounds of initial engagement and then a lot of rounds of going through the motions and saying "yeah.. yeah.. yeah..". And once you expect a lot of boring games you're not playing a game anymore.

U-Boats are not an auto-win list by any means. I think that for the most part, the grief directed at this list is due to its low performance floor. While its performance ceiling isn't necessarily higher than other top-tier lists, it can still be powerful even in the hands of a lesser-skilled pilot. This can make it a NPE to go up against U-boats with a non-tournament competitive list.

Personally the only problems I have with them is that they (apparently) have pushed out lots of lists from the meta, and that they are spammed. They do require more thought than many give them credit for. The first game you faced them was probably murderous, but there are definitely ways to fly against them once you've seen them do their thing. One or even two in a list would make things interesting, seeing three all the time does gets a little old, is all.

Hopefully some of the upcoming expansions bring some more options to the table again, especially for rebels,,but in the end the jump master hasn't ruined the game, and I'm not gonna smirk at the people who take them.

Just want to repeat something I said earlier.

With the new Imperial veterans coming out, I still don't see why take a generic bomber over a generic scout.

The scout seems to be a better ordnance carrier than the bomber, which is something else I don't like.

Maybe they are in lore, idk, but I still don't see any reason to take a bomber vs scout.

That's one of my beefs with them.

Ordnance works well with them because they still have the action economy to make the best use of them.

Bombers and other ships still need something else to really make it work.

Another ship with tracers, or Jonus.

I like seeing ordnance being used, but the tripple scouts meh.

I guess my question to the imperial ace hate folks is this.

I can understand not liking something.

I don't like uBoats. I've established that.

But why are Imperial Aces so prevalent?

Why are they doing well?

It's because of the uBoats.

This is where you lost me. Imperial Ace lists have been ubiquitous in one form or another for several waves. From Ace Swarms, to Whisper/RAC, Fel and his buddies etc. They've been around long before the Jumpmaster, and they'll continue to be around for a long time to come.

Not having seen the effects of Imp vets yet of course, the whole scheme of 'let's fix ordnance and namely the TIE bomber' then seeing the scout, I too am scratching my head. A friend of mine is taking a bomber heavy squad to Nationals and it's not terrible at all, but I don't know what he's going to do againsta skilled top tier list player.

I guess my question to the imperial ace hate folks is this.

I can understand not liking something.

I don't like uBoats. I've established that.

But why are Imperial Aces so prevalent?

Why are they doing well?

It's because of the uBoats.

This is where you lost me. Imperial Ace lists have been ubiquitous in one form or another for several waves. From Ace Swarms, to Whisper/RAC, Fel and his buddies etc. They've been around long before the Jumpmaster, and they'll continue to be around for a long time to come.

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

As someone who has played swarms for almost 2 years, if you honestly believe them to be harder to fly then UBoats, I laugh at you. If you believe a palp ace is harder to fly then UBoats, again I laugh at you. Most people that spout these things set up directly across from the boats and joust them, how do I know this? TOing a regional, battle reports, and just casual nights show this to be true. If anything I find the easiest way to find the weaker players are the ones that constantly complain.

Every game has its popular net list FotM that changes on the next release. Every list that has some thought to it, has a chance, as long as people practice it and it's hard counters.

It's one thing to have a discussion, another to degrade people. And, yes I know I said I laugh at people and that is also wrong, but normally it's after one so adamantly opposed anothers ideas.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

That's the crux right there.

Store champs were mostly done by the time Wave 8 released. With fewer tournaments post-release, there wasn't much high-profile testing being done. Regionals on tap, and new ships everyone was itching to fly, there was one proven Wave 8 list that could hold its own against Palp Aces amongst the unknown possibilities. Of course it saw more use early this Regional season. And because it won some, it saw more use at later Regionals while at the same time more unique lists are starting to push their way to top results as there had been time to experiment and practice. Just like your K-Wing example from Wave 7.

You're essentially comparing the late Wave 7 meta to the early Wave 8 meta and that's just not a fair comparison. Compare early 7 to early 8, or late 7 to late 8. Remember Wave 6 and all we saw was Brobots? I'm betting by the time Wave 9 is about to drop we'll have a more diverse Wave 8 meta than we do today.

U-Boats was the obvious list barely 3 months ago, just like Palp-Aces 7 months before it, 4 tlts before that, and Fat/Super turrets before them. Not everybody plays twice a week, or even weekly, so U-Boats are still very much the new hotness. And with Regionals the first premier exposure to play them at, you were bound to see a lot of them at the start of the season. But now I'm repeating myself.

Just remember that competitive counters to everything are out there, but you're going to have to be creative and not depend on everyone else to find and practice them for you. And don't disparage another person for their choice in list, tactics, dress, behavior (unless they don't shower), or any other difference between you, and finally remember this:

My favourite game from Regionals was the one I played against triple Jumpmasters. The guy playing them had a great attitude and we had a lot of fun, mostly involving him bumping into my Z-95s.

I eventually ended up losing that game, but it was sufficiently close that I don't mind. My least favourite game was against a guy running two IGs who spent most of the game scowling at the board, said barely a full sentence in the hour it took to play and didn't smile once all day despite coming second overall.

Attitude is far more important than list in regards to my view of other players. Jumpmasters and Palpatine might be damaging to meta variety right now, but that's on the game designers, not the players.

As someone who has played swarms for almost 2 years, if you honestly believe them to be harder to fly then UBoats, I laugh at you. If you believe a palp ace is harder to fly then UBoats, again I laugh at you. Most people that spout these things set up directly across from the boats and joust them, how do I know this? TOing a regional, battle reports, and just casual nights show this to be true. If anything I find the easiest way to find the weaker players are the ones that constantly complain.

Every game has its popular net list FotM that changes on the next release. Every list that has some thought to it, has a chance, as long as people practice it and it's hard counters.

It's one thing to have a discussion, another to degrade people. And, yes I know I said I laugh at people and that is also wrong, but normally it's after one so adamantly opposed anothers ideas.

You can tell that every single person in this thread who has their reasons, opinions and points on why they don't like uBoats, that they all joust

Every single person, when playing against uBoats set up directly across from them, and fly straight at them? They must yell "full speed ahead" or maybe they sound the bugle as they scream "charge"

So every single player player here who has voiced an opinion, one that you don't agree with is a weak player?

Even those of us who have won multiple store championships, kit tournaments, and placed high in standings when they didn't win?

What if I was to say I know some here who also TO tournaments, played same lists for a very long time, and host casual game nights. Does that mean they have the same ability as you?

But wait, their opinion is different than yours

You sir have an amazing ability. It's really a shame it's wasted in a game of plastic ships.

If only your talent could be used for something... Greater.

I too am laughing. Thanks for the pick me up

Edit

I'm sorry but your wrong.

Just because a player complains about something, that by no means makes them a weak player, but aren't you doing the same thing as you just commented on?

Degrading those who complain.

Everyone has the right to complain If they don't like something.

In fact every single person on this planet will complain about something, be it to their friends, wives, siblings.

In this case it's xwing, and there will always be something that someone doesn't like?

I'd have to say you would be lying if you said in your years of playing you said you never once complained. Maybe not on forums, but maybe after you got home, or to your friend after a bad night. Maybe you didn't get much sleep, cranky, irritated.

Human nature man.

Sorry but to say those who complain are the weakest players

Thats the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile

But then again, I guess we don't have your special talent.

From your xwing resume, you know all see all

We aren't seeing ywings such as before

Hell I haven't heard mention of a btl stressbot in awhile.

Tripple kwings etc.

It seems now that uBoats are around the things that did so well against aces have taken the back shelf for now, giving ace squads more room to roam.

Not that they were hard counters, but they worked.

People were flying tripple ks after what they saw what they could do at the worlds for example.

I agree with a previous poster, pre wave 8 had a much more diverse meta.

Where did all the tlt, stressbot, regen, poe, Miranda builds go?

I agree that the turret carriers have disappeared, and with them, their stress mechanics, but that's not the result of the Jumpmaster's arrival so much as it is Guidance Chips and the overall ordnance boost. Y's and K's simply can't stand up to that degree of spike damage, regardless of who's doing it. I can take three of the good old Scimitar Bombers out with Jonus behind them, and remove turret carriers with ease. The likes of Poe and Corran relied upon those meat-and-veg ships to be the distraction/shield while they used their regen abilities to hit-and-fade, so once one fell out of favour, it took the other with it.

I do think the Rebels are lacking now. Ordnance has punched a hole in their mainstay generics, and the perfect imbalance has just become a straight faction imbalance. I think Gamma Vets will probably highlight this a bit more, once Imp Vets drops.