So after reading the errata where it explains that the Initiate unlike the apprentice wizard does not start having aquired the advanced skills of piety or invocation

Initiates do not begin play with the Piety or Invocation advanced
skills. This is different than Apprentice Wizards, who do start with
Channelling and Spellcraft already acquired. If an Initiate wishes
to invoke blessings early on, he should invest creation points during
character creation to acquire Invocation.

This means in order to have these as trained I would need to spens 3 creation points on skills and spend all 4 options on these 2 skills forcing to take a specialisation in each.

Why?

It this due to fluff or some kind of attempt to balance priest types with wizards.

Right now I cant figure out the reason behind this fundemental difference as both types of career offer very different play styles anyway why would an apprentice have aquired their advanced skills through study but an Initiate not aquired at least basic knowledge/belief in his faith?

This may not be the reason, but in terms of fluff/canon, priests/clergy are not always spell casters. You can have priests without the ability to cast, which to be honest, I rather like that as my own view of the world suggests casters of any type are few and far between. Since religion is such a huge element in the lives of the Old Worlders, not every lay priest, friar, monk, priest, etc can cast spells. Otherwise, spells/blessings become a fairly common event for the commoner to see, which reduces the fear of the event, which reduces the really tasty setting and atmosphere that comes from having commoners burn witches at the stake for consorting with fell powers.

Krisstoff said:

Nope you must only spend 1 creation point to acquire both skills (you get 1 skill free) - they do not need to be "Trained" to use, once they are acquired they can be used like any other basic skill - once "Trained" you will be rewarded with a yellow dice to your dice pool however.

also priests are not taught there magic like a wizard, they study religion not casting, casting comes through belief your god is granting these blessing through you, such faith i would say cannot be taught. (even thou its nothing to do with the gods at all really except maybe tzeentch!)

As people said previously.

An interesting tidbit ... a priest could learn Invocation without learning Piety. This means the priest can cast spells, but must rely on equilibrium to replenish Favor. Given the low favor cost of the minor blessings, at the very least it allows a priest to cast one or perhaps two blessings during a combat, without having to spend a skill to learn Piety at creation.

Okay I need some help here guys

Kapitan O : where do i get the free skill? rulebook and page please as i cant find any reference to this?

hedgewizard: as far as cannon or fluff goes my only real basis other than the previous WFRP 1st and 2nd is the battle game where mainly priests of Sigmar wander round the board with huge hammere some times two handing out melee damage and casting blessings all over the table.

yes in 2nd edition there were a number of lay preist and clergy / friar careers but that seemed more add on careers than actual reflection of the warhammer world. Most non casting religious types seem to be fanatics or lunatics, Flagellants and Witchhunters etc

I ws just wondering if its just a ruling that will make more people play wizards than preists in the game ? if you want to have some kind of supernatural/spell casting abilities?

Krisstoff said:

The 2ed was even more biased against priests. Initiates didn't even have the the option of learning how to cast blessing.

From a min/max point of view, I doubt the clergy will hold much appeal. But then a minmaxer will always play the way that ensures him the "best" character.

Krisstoff said:

I think the byproduct of their decision allows for 1 career that can span both casting-capable and mundane priests. Thus they don't have to produce material on two separate career tracks. Of course, the WFB is all about the epic battles, so the focus is on those uber characters of sorts.

Again, my view of casting (that it should be limited otherwise you lose the fear/chaos/witch hunter flavor) informs my reading of the new careers.

The average villager is going to see someone "cast" something - they'll see something miraculous happen. They won't have any idea whether it was a witch or a priest (unless the priest is wearing their vestments, etc.) But can't witches wear that stuff too? Can't priests be corrupted? It's better not to wait to find out... get out of there quick, or find a group of people to burn the heretic at the stake.

Meanwhile, priests who aren't slinging miracles command respect (generally) from the populace by their mere status in the community. They can open other doors, and this allow a non-miracle casting priest to be a very strong vehicle for social intrigues and events.

Krisstoff said:

Well look at the chart for character creation

Spend 0 pts - get 1 skill

Spend 1 pt - get 2 skills

Spend 2 pts - get 3 skills+1 spec

Spend 3 pts - get 4 skills + 2 spec

So you can spend 1 pt, get 2 skill choices, use one to acquire piety and the other to acquire devotion - you can then roll both of those checks although you wont get the yellow die. As someone else pointed out you could just acquire the spellcasting one and use your base favour and the regen 1 pt per round to just cast the odd minor blessing or cheap faith blessing from time to time.

If you want other skills then you obviously have to buy them as well.

Let's not forget that priests can wear armor without penalty, while wizards can not.

Im not sure about this edition but in second a priest could also hold the line in combat, a wizard certianly could not, same goes in wfb priests are able to do the same, they are not the match of a uber combat hero but far out strip a wizard in combat, and they can also cast some minor spells, so the priest is more of an all rounder.

I agree with what everyone has said and like the fact that your typical initiate in a temple would not be able to cast spells - however the system is harsh on these simple folk as the Initiate career special is a bonus to casting rank 1 or basic spells.

Don't forget miscast too

Note that you can't actually both acquire and train the skills anyway, and that acquiring them counts against your ability to buy them as Rank 1 advances. So basically you have to wait until Rank 2 to get 1 level of training in Invocation and Piety.

Katsue said:

Do you have a page reference for this? I don't think acquiring the advanced skills counts against your limit of only 1 skill training per rank, so you could both acquire and train Invocation and Piety at Rank 1. Of course, I could be wrong.

John

No you can acquire and train within the same rank, just not at creation.

Okay I was reading up on this last night and this morning.

Page 30 states during the skills training section for character creation
"If he selects an advanced skill, his character acquires the skill, but is not yet trained” My emphasise.
In the same section but later on page 31

"During character creation, no single skill can be trained more than once"
This read to me like you can both acquire and train a skill at character creation if you want to use two skill slots to do so.

Also I think in this version more so than previous incarnations we have to accept that the player’s characters are not the normal everyday folk.
There is the bit about being chosen by fate in the fortune points section on page 14; we have most enemies now as henchmen for the heroes to wade through before facing the real threat.

This version no matter how you cut it is much more cinematic than previous editions, not that I mind that as I always wondered why WFRP novels had protagonists who managed to do such wonderful feats but my players had a 30% to hit something right in front of them.

hence my OP about why the heavy penalty for initiates to get those prayers and blessing when there are almost the same number of them as spells in the core set and the special ability of the initiate is tailored to using them.

Looks like it a remnant of the previous versions and although not official I guess I can just house rule that they can have the skills acquired anyway.

Kaptain O said:

Per page 2 of the FAQ, "skills trained during character creation do count towards the limit of one rank of skill training per character rank".

Katsue said:

Right skills trained during creation do count as being trained already in rank 1, I never said otherwise.

You can acquire and train the same skill within a single rank, you just can't acquire and train the same skill during creation - so you can acquire a skill during creation, and then train the same skill at some point during the remainder of the first rank.

got it?

Kaptain O said:

But where does it say that in the FAQ?

I agree that you can acquire and train an advanced skill in the same rank but why not during character creation? Where is this prohibition?

Blustar said:

That was my point at start of page 2 of this thread after reading the FAQ and the creation section again it makes a clear distinction between acquiring a skill and training a skill, with you only being allowed to train a skill once per rank and at creation that would imply that you can acquire a skill and train it during creation.

Think of it this way,

First child is raise in a very pious family thus acuires piety early on i life and later when the adult devotes themself to the cloth the are trained in the correct manner in which to please the diety.

Second child spends growing up learning how to use there looks and speech to influence others, trains themself to charm others and decides to join the clergy, whilst there they acquire the knowledge of how to appease the god of that religion, aquiring piety.

there does not seem any reason why with the correct expenditure of points during charcter creation you cannot acquire and train before you start the game, after all you have all those years of previous experience from which to draw.

Krisstoff said:

Definetly agree with your interpretation. I'd say those two quotes says it all. You can Aqcuire a skill and then Train it once, since when a character acquires a skill it is not yet trained .

Freiduin said:

Yes, it has to be acquired before it can be trained. Acquiring a skill is not training it.

My reading is that training an Advanced Skill you don't have means you Acquire it, and that said acquisition counts towards your 1 training per rank limit. I certainly see no reason to make a distinction between character creation and advancement in this regard.

Katsue said:

From the official Errata (p5):

Skills: Advanced Skill Clarification
Accessing an advanced skill is a two-step process. A character cannot
attempt an advanced skill until he acquires the skill. Acquiring
an advanced skill is the first step in the process, at the cost of one
Skill Advance. Once an advanced skill has been acquired, a character
can attempt checks based on that skill, just as if it were a basic
skill on his list of basic skills.
Once an advanced skill has been acquired, the character now has
the option to train the skill, as he would any of the basic skills available
to him. Training the advanced skill would be the second step
in the process, and costs one Skill Advance.

Note the sentence: " Once an advanced skill has been acquired, the character now has the option to TRAIN the skill ".

P 35 in the Roleplay Rulebook states: "A single skill can only be TRAINED once per character rank."

Since Acquiring a skill is not the same as Training a skill you can both Acquire a skill and Train it during character creation. The same goes for later in the game too during character advancement. If you have a Rank 1 character, you can Acquire an advanced skill and then Train it once (you cant train it more than until you increase your rank).

That means that there are no special rules governing character creation in this regard. It has the same limitations as later in the game during character advancement.