Personally, I like both. It's 8pts and I shy away from Gunnery Teams on an ISD-I anyway, because you won't often get two ships in Close Range at the same time.

Oh, and I think I mentioned this earlier, ships that throw lots of Reds will love Sensor Teams and/or H9s if flotillas really explode.

Agreed. Its a personal preference, though. For me LS together with OE feels like overinsuring, but that may be different for different fleets.

I can see the usage of Sensor teams/H9s expanding, however Sensor team ship for me is the one that throws red dices and can't (or doesn't want to) take H9's. And H9 is for everyone else.

Personally, I like both. It's 8pts and I shy away from Gunnery Teams on an ISD-I anyway, because you won't often get two ships in Close Range at the same time.

Oh, and I think I mentioned this earlier, ships that throw lots of Reds will love Sensor Teams and/or H9s if flotillas really explode.

Not H9's with reds, so much. Remember, with H9 you're only flipping hits and crits.

So, Veteran Gunners/H9's. (or just stack/comm net that concentrate fire token)

Personally, I like both. It's 8pts and I shy away from Gunnery Teams on an ISD-I anyway, because you won't often get two ships in Close Range at the same time.

Oh, and I think I mentioned this earlier, ships that throw lots of Reds will love Sensor Teams and/or H9s if flotillas really explode.

Not H9's with reds, so much. Remember, with H9 you're only flipping hits and crits.

So, Veteran Gunners/H9's.

The MC30T and the ISD-I are the only two such options that occur to me. And the ISD-1 has reasonably good odds of fishing up that accuracy anyway (~62%).

Anyway, just throwing it out there... not looking to sidetrack this even further with yet another upgrade to math out.

I'm not talking about OE. Remember that the OP was debating between OE and Leading Shots. You inserted Sensor Teams into the conversation. ST vs. OE is a different conversation. I was debating ST vs. LS.

And when you get to Close Range, that becomes an entirely different debate. Right now on an average roll, Sensor Teams will be better against anything except for CR90s, Nebulon-Bs and anything with ECMs. When wave four comes out, add the MC80 Liberty to that list with its redundant Braces. But, as I said, now you're getting into a meta dependency. In my area, ECMs are pretty popular, so that Accuracy does nothing for me. Increasing the damage through re-rolls (I prefer LS and OE, but that's just me) can do a lot.

When Flotillas come out, ST on a ship with a lot of Red dice will be golden. Since you can't get a re-roll on Red dice (other than Vader or the upcoming Veteran Gunners), if you're throwing five or six of them, you have a high chance of two blanks. So being able to lock down that Scatter at Long Range can be huge. But again, that'll depend on how many flotillas are in your local meta.

In my opinion, Leading Shots is the better "All Comers" option over Sensor Teams. ST is too niche to be of service in every situation. Leading Shots will always have an impact.

Turning back to LS vs. OE, I'd choose LS (though, again, my preference is both). LS will serve you well at all ranges. And the reason I say to take both is because you can aggressively re-roll your Black dice. With a Concentrate Fire dial, you can roll five Blacks, so probably HIT, HIT, HIT, HIT/CRIT, BLANK. Use LS to pick up everything except the HIT/CRIT, and you should get HIT, HIT, HIT/CRIT, BLANK. Now OE the blank for (probably) another HIT. Statistically, you should increase your damage from five to seven, and you are also re-rolling your blank Reds.

That's a lot of rerolls..... Although they are still no replacement for a sure thing...... The thing that Scree, ST and TLRC have going for them is that they will remove the hell which is common cause variation. I will never forget the time I rolled 12 black dice with OE rerolls on all of them and did not get a single crit.......

Thats.... that's hearbreaking

Heartbreaking for him... For others it's was a heartwarming moment

Vader??

Vader??

This was a pleasant conversation...

I'm not talking about OE. Remember that the OP was debating between OE and Leading Shots. You inserted Sensor Teams into the conversation. ST vs. OE is a different conversation. I was debating ST vs. LS.

And when you get to Close Range, that becomes an entirely different debate. Right now on an average roll, Sensor Teams will be better against anything except for CR90s, Nebulon-Bs and anything with ECMs. When wave four comes out, add the MC80 Liberty to that list with its redundant Braces. But, as I said, now you're getting into a meta dependency. In my area, ECMs are pretty popular, so that Accuracy does nothing for me. Increasing the damage through re-rolls (I prefer LS and OE, but that's just me) can do a lot.

When Flotillas come out, ST on a ship with a lot of Red dice will be golden. Since you can't get a re-roll on Red dice (other than Vader or the upcoming Veteran Gunners), if you're throwing five or six of them, you have a high chance of two blanks. So being able to lock down that Scatter at Long Range can be huge. But again, that'll depend on how many flotillas are in your local meta.

In my opinion, Leading Shots is the better "All Comers" option over Sensor Teams. ST is too niche to be of service in every situation. Leading Shots will always have an impact.

Turning back to LS vs. OE, I'd choose LS (though, again, my preference is both). LS will serve you well at all ranges. And the reason I say to take both is because you can aggressively re-roll your Black dice. With a Concentrate Fire dial, you can roll five Blacks, so probably HIT, HIT, HIT, HIT/CRIT, BLANK. Use LS to pick up everything except the HIT/CRIT, and you should get HIT, HIT, HIT/CRIT, BLANK. Now OE the blank for (probably) another HIT. Statistically, you should increase your damage from five to seven, and you are also re-rolling your blank Reds.

That's a lot of rerolls..... Although they are still no replacement for a sure thing...... The thing that Scree, ST and TLRC have going for them is that they will remove the hell which is common cause variation. I will never forget the time I rolled 12 black dice with OE rerolls on all of them and did not get a single crit.......

Thats.... that's hearbreaking

Heartbreaking for him... For others it's was a heartwarming moment

Ha ha...........at least it was a friendly game.......

I will never forget the time I rolled 12 black dice with OE rerolls on all of them and did not get a single crit.......

As a luckless Dodonna/APT MC30 driver--this gets me right in the feels.

So, the offer was made by Snipafist to run full math on the whole Leading Shots vs Ordnance experts discussion.

This calculation is limited to close range shooting only. The scenarios as I see them are:

Probability of killing full health CR90 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

So, the offer was made by Snipafist to run full math on the whole Leading Shots vs Ordnance experts discussion.

This calculation is limited to close range shooting only. The scenarios as I see them are:

Probability of killing full health CR90 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with double arc shot.

Average expected damage from front arc

Average expected damage from side arc

Probability of getting at least one accuracy for both configurations. (In my mind this is much less important with intel officer on board)

Anything else?

Edit: lets add Imperial small ships as well

Probability of killing full health Raider with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with double arc shot (one can dream, right?)

I don't agree to close range shooting only.

The LS upgrade doesn't turn off at medium range like OE does so it is a valid caveat

also you can't assume intel officer. I was toying with the idea of ditching intel officer and instead going OE+LS to free up points and help fish for accuracies while maximizing black damae on front and side arc (which would be interesting to look at)

So, the offer was made by Snipafist to run full math on the whole Leading Shots vs Ordnance experts discussion.

This calculation is limited to close range shooting only. The scenarios as I see them are:

Probability of killing full health CR90 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with double arc shot.

Average expected damage from front arc

Average expected damage from side arc

Probability of getting at least one accuracy for both configurations. (In my mind this is much less important with intel officer on board)

Anything else?

Edit: lets add Imperial small ships as well

Probability of killing full health Raider with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with double arc shot (one can dream, right?)

I don't agree to close range shooting only.

The LS upgrade doesn't turn off at medium range like OE does so it is a valid caveat

also you can't assume intel officer. I was toying with the idea of ditching intel officer and instead going OE+LS to free up points and help fish for accuracies while maximizing black damae on front and side arc (which would be interesting to look at)

The reason for doing close range only is because the result in medium range will obviously favor LS and the shot obviously won't kill any ships. However lets add this number as well, this is a valid point.

Lets assume no Intel, I agree (However my experience is that with Intel on board getting that accuracy matters much less, as the brace will be discarded after first shot and the second shot (next round or from a different ship) won't need to worry about it anymore)

So, the offer was made by Snipafist to run full math on the whole Leading Shots vs Ordnance experts discussion.

This calculation is limited to close range shooting only. The scenarios as I see them are:

Probability of killing full health CR90 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with front arc shot.

Probability of killing full health MC30 (with ram if nesessary) with double arc shot.

Average expected damage from front arc

Average expected damage from side arc

Probability of getting at least one accuracy for both configurations. (In my mind this is much less important with intel officer on board)

Anything else?

Edit: lets add Imperial small ships as well

Probability of killing full health Raider with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with front arc shot

Probability of killing full health Gladiator with double arc shot (one can dream, right?)

I don't agree to close range shooting only.

The LS upgrade doesn't turn off at medium range like OE does so it is a valid caveat

also you can't assume intel officer. I was toying with the idea of ditching intel officer and instead going OE+LS to free up points and help fish for accuracies while maximizing black damae on front and side arc (which would be interesting to look at)

The reason for doing close range only is because the result in medium range will obviously favor LS and the shot obviously won't kill any ships. However lets add this number as well, this is a valid point.

Average expected damage from front arc at medium range

Lets assume no Intel, I agree (However my experience is that with Intel on board getting that accuracy matters much less, as the brace will be discarded after first shot and the second shot (next round or from a different ship) won't need to worry about it anymore)

it might be a wash in any case as keep in mind that intel + LS at medium range is also more powerful by maximizing the front arc damage (at 5 dice, not inconsiderable) plus locking down or potentially discarding a token before even getting into kill range. I find it hard to believe there are zero turns where at least one target is in front arc medium range.

Edit: sorry 4 dice

I find it hard to believe there are zero turns where at least one target is in front arc medium range.

As long as you have activation advantage and nav, this is a very likely scenario. (based on my experience)

The better way to set an argument between them is:

"Is the Gains-through-Loss at Medium and Long Range with Leading Shots worth Compromising Ultimate-Damage at close Range through Ordnance Experts"

The better way to set an argument between them is:

"Is the Gains-through-Loss at Medium and Long Range with Leading Shots worth Compromising Ultimate-Damage at close Range through Ordnance Experts"

#SensorTeams

If you want to start another argument, go ahead. I'm just trying to help with the above.

The better way to set an argument between them is:

"Is the Gains-through-Loss at Medium and Long Range with Leading Shots worth Compromising Ultimate-Damage at close Range through Ordnance Experts"

It's medium range only

And to be fair, I don't think there is an argument. I only provided a set of scenarios that will be interesting to calculate. Once these numbers are in hand, everyone can decide for himself based on the intended usage of the ship.

The better way to set an argument between them is:

"Is the Gains-through-Loss at Medium and Long Range with Leading Shots worth Compromising Ultimate-Damage at close Range through Ordnance Experts"

It's medium range only

Of course.

"Is the gains-through-loss at Medium Range with Leading Shots, worth compromising the damage potential at close range through Ordnance Experts?"

(I tripped myself up, because most of the time I'm using an ISD-1 with Leading Shots, its Devestator, so I am potentially getting it at long range)

The better way to set an argument between them is:

"Is the Gains-through-Loss at Medium and Long Range with Leading Shots worth Compromising Ultimate-Damage at close Range through Ordnance Experts"

It's medium range only

Of course.

"Is the gains-through-loss at Medium Range with Leading Shots, worth compromising the damage potential at close range through Ordnance Experts?"

(I tripped myself up, because most of the time I'm using an ISD-1 with Leading Shots, its Devestator, so I am potentially getting it at long range)

Ah! Thats a totally different beast and does change the equation a lot. Good point about Devastator though, I didn't think about that.

I don't see why people tend to forget that LS also re-rolls the front arc black dice, effectively having the same effect there as ordnance experts

so the real queation is, is the Medium range advantage PLUS the re-roll of front arc red dice and 1 blue die at the loss of 1 blue die worth losing the side arc re-roll.

Side arc average damage is increased by what with rerolling blacks?

front arc average damage is increased by what when you subtract a blue and can re-roll everything else?

Front arc average damage is what if you can only re-roll the blacks

with those numbers you can start to get a real comparison, and then you can add a personal tilt on the medium range reroll value.

I don't see why people tend to forget that LS also re-rolls the front arc black dice, effectively having the same effect there as ordnance experts

Because it doesn't have the same effect. The loss of a die for LS significantly lowers the probability of getting at least X damage.

I don't see why people tend to forget that LS also re-rolls the front arc black dice, effectively having the same effect there as ordnance experts

Because it doesn't have the same effect. The loss of a die for LS significantly lowers the probability of getting at least X damage.

no, it lowers it .75

so does re-rolling 4 dice MORE (3 Red and 1 Blue) on average mitigate the loss of the one blue die...that is the question. If you are doing it to accuracy fish to lock down a brace (or lock down a redirect and Intel the brace) the EFFECTIVE improvement can outstrip the loss of 1 die by a large margin.

And additionally, as a matter of fact, there are cases where it would be clearly a damage boost, like in the case you have more accuracies than you want to spend between your red and blue dice. With OE that is all wasted dice. LS that is now fine-tuned accuracies + damage

Because it doesn't have the same effect. The loss of a die for LS significantly lowers the probability of getting at least X damage.

no, it lowers it .75

How did you get this number? Once you do the actual calculation, you may be surprised with a result (especially for X > 9)