IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster in a game that has left most jousters behind. With the IA, it is comparable to a B-Wing, but guess what, B-wings aren't seeing much play currently either.

IMO, the answer isn't to make the X-wing an arc-dodger as many have suggested, but to give the whole jouster type ships a slight boost. When this happens, a whole slew of ships will be helped (e.g. Kihrax, X-Wing, B-Wing, and Starviper which despite it's action bar, I feel is much better at jousting than arc-dodging)). Maybe make the upgrade a modification so that it covers a lot of ships, but arc-dodgers can't have it and autothrusters/EU, ordnance boats can't have it and Guidance Chips. Something that would do for jousters what autothrusters did for arc-dodgers.

IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster in a game that has left most jousters behind. With the IA, it is comparable to a B-Wing, but guess what, B-wings aren't seeing much play currently either.

IMO, the answer isn't to make the X-wing an arc-dodger as many have suggested, but to give the whole jouster type ships a slight boost. When this happens, a whole slew of ships will be helped (e.g. Kihrax, X-Wing, B-Wing, and Starviper which despite it's action bar, I feel is much better at jousting than arc-dodging)). Maybe make the upgrade a modification so that it covers a lot of ships, but arc-dodgers can't have it and autothrusters/EU, ordnance boats can't have it and Guidance Chips. Something that would do for jousters what autothrusters did for arc-dodgers.

I've been saying for a while that the fix for the X-Wing and E-Wing shouldn't be to make them into an arc-dodger, but to enable them to force arc-dodgers to play the jousting game. That's been their problem for almost the entire history of the game. They would execute their maneuver, but the ability for a TIE Fighter to barrel roll out of their arc (thus negating the X-Wing's damage entirely) would create problems.

Maybe something that allows them to cancel an opponent's free action, or at least restrict their ability to barrel roll or boost?

BB-8+PTL is a bit too niche in my opinion- BB-8+Predators keeps the action economy and maneuverability, but isn't nearly as married to greens.

IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster in a game that has left most jousters behind. With the IA, it is comparable to a B-Wing, but guess what, B-wings aren't seeing much play currently either.

IMO, the answer isn't to make the X-wing an arc-dodger as many have suggested, but to give the whole jouster type ships a slight boost. When this happens, a whole slew of ships will be helped (e.g. Kihrax, X-Wing, B-Wing, and Starviper which despite it's action bar, I feel is much better at jousting than arc-dodging)). Maybe make the upgrade a modification so that it covers a lot of ships, but arc-dodgers can't have it and autothrusters/EU, ordnance boats can't have it and Guidance Chips. Something that would do for jousters what autothrusters did for arc-dodgers.

I've been saying for a while that the fix for the X-Wing and E-Wing shouldn't be to make them into an arc-dodger, but to enable them to force arc-dodgers to play the jousting game. That's been their problem for almost the entire history of the game. They would execute their maneuver, but the ability for a TIE Fighter to barrel roll out of their arc (thus negating the X-Wing's damage entirely) would create problems.

Maybe something that allows them to cancel an opponent's free action, or at least restrict their ability to barrel roll or boost?

I like your thinking. Maybe something along the lines of the ability to once a round, cause a stress to an unstressed ship that maneuvers out of your firing arc, while surrendering your ability to perform an attack that round.

This way, you can't fire at other ships still in your arc, but the arc dodgers wouldn't get away unscathed. They would end up with a stress after their maneuver, preventing further actions. It would protect the arc-dodger from being piled with multiple stresses if they dodge out of multiple arcs simultaneously. In addition, it would slow down the PS race as lower PS ship with the ability could arguably have an advantage over a higher PS ship.

The wording and timing would have to be worked out, but that's my general idea.

Why not give a title that works the same as for Tie Advance but on everything. First 5 points on T-65 is free. If that is "unbalanced" then equip 1 torpedo for free. T-65 needs that little extra now. No one plays with T-65 accept with Biggs and rarely Wes and Wedge. Do it FFG. Do it.

How about "Enemy Ships in Range 1 with a stress token may not use Boost or Barrel Roll Actions". Still room for fancy flying to get an advantage, but makes it tricky to get into and stay at close range without getting stuck in their arc. Also makes the X-Wings with less than PS9 that much more effective, as they'll get to plop themselves into a blocking zone before the aces move to really gum up the works. Heaven help the Soontir Fel that K-turns into Range 1 of an X-Wing which he thought was moving somewhere else.

IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster.... Maybe something that allows them to cancel an opponent's free action, or at least restrict their ability to barrel roll or boost?

The T-65 is an ordinance ability fighter with shielding, it is a jouster and isn't a barrel-rolling arc-dodger; it's not supposed to; but ships that are need to be allowed to perform that action. Making all fighters the same (or be able to take another's ship specific ability away) would be terrible for the game. It's a game of strengths and weaknesses....not equality.

IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster.... Maybe something that allows them to cancel an opponent's free action, or at least restrict their ability to barrel roll or boost?

The T-65 is an ordinance ability fighter with shielding, it is a jouster and isn't a barrel-rolling arc-dodger; it's not supposed to; but ships that are need to be allowed to perform that action. Making all fighters the same (or be able to take another's ship specific ability away) would be terrible for the game. It's a game of strengths and weaknesses....not equality.

Alright. I'll try and explain this one more time.

1) The X-wing is a jouster, as you yourself have said.

2) Mathwing shows the X-Wing is underperforming as a jouster, and has been since wave 1. This is a fact.

3) Because the X-Wing has no way to transcend it's weak jousting value (unlike Soontir), the jousting value is much more important to whether is X-Wing is good or not compared to non-jouster ships.

The X-Wing cannot do anything that another ship cannot do more points efficiently.

Perhaps when we see these new "headon cards" and they arent faction limited something will pop up jousting-related that will make the Xwing better.

IMO, one of the X-Wings biggest issues is not so much the points or the ship itself, but the fact that it is a jouster.... Maybe something that allows them to cancel an opponent's free action, or at least restrict their ability to barrel roll or boost?

The T-65 is an ordinance ability fighter with shielding, it is a jouster and isn't a barrel-rolling arc-dodger; it's not supposed to; but ships that are need to be allowed to perform that action. Making all fighters the same (or be able to take another's ship specific ability away) would be terrible for the game. It's a game of strengths and weaknesses....not equality.

You can even out a one-sided match-up without taking away a ship's unique ability. This is what autothrusters did. Arc-dodgers were almost DOA against turrets, but autothrusters penalized out of arc shots without eliminating them. I won't speak for PhantomFO, but my thought is to penalize arc-dodgers and make life harder for them against jousters, without eliminating their playstyle.

If you want more specifics, see my suggestion above. Arc-dodgers would still be able to move out of arc, but they would be limited from further shenanigans.

Titles, 4+ different Rogue squadron titles. Each title has a different ability with the final text of, "friendly ships with the Rogue Squadron title within range 1 receive all benefits of this card". Titles require unique pilots only.

1 for boost

1 for barrel roll

1 for white S-Loop

1 for evade action

1 for fire torpedo without target lock

1 for if your first attack misses, a friendly Rogue that is within your firing arc and has firing arc on the defender can make a free additional attack this round.

or whatever the heck they decide.... just some quick 2 second thoughts.

It's like Bro-Bots, but Rebel style.

Of all the topics that appear on roughly a weekly basis, this one seems to be taking the spot as the most consistent.

Which I don't understand. The T-65 received its "fix". The Integrated Astromech does wonders for this ship. Because of previous wording rules, it would be nearly impossible for FFG to release a mod or a title that ONLY the T-65 can equip.

I often wounder if players have dusted off their old X-wings sense IA (and the new Astromechs) came out? Wedge with BB-8 is outrageous! And all the X-wings become even tougher with IA. I actually tend to field X-wings with IA over naked B-wings now!

The only change I would like to see is to give all X-wings with a PS 4 or higher a EPT slot. Because there is an astromech that does this very thing... I doubt we ever get such a title.

Most people are either copycats or focused on the new shinies. Until they see X-wings dominating tournament lists, they won't go back to them.

That being said, I'm kind of one of them. I have very limited time to play and I often play casual games with the new ships that I haven't flown much, or serious games with the ones I know well.

From what I have played, IA helped the X-wing quite a bit. I think they could still use a little nudge though. Nothing grand, but maybe just somethings that gives the elites a tiny bit more flexibility.

I often fall into the same boat. In friendly play, I'm flying the new shiny things. For tournaments, I generally only fly lists I have a lot of experience with. This means I'm flying X-wings often. I have 1 all X-wing list that has never lost in competitive play.

tl;dr BB-8 + PTL is a neat trick, but the X-wing's greens are so limited that's it's difficult to make consistent use of both upgrades together, and using PTL alone turns off BB-8 for at least a turn, and adding engine upgrade to the mix to make up for poor turning ability makes him prohibitively expensive.

Believe me, I want to make Wedge work, he's my favorite pilot, but even with that build I still don't typically find him making his points back.

I often find people try to turn Wedge into an arc dodger. This is not the way to fly him IMHO. Wedge's defense is his offense. He can't be shot if he blew up what was going to shoot him first! BB-8 isn't needed every round, but is used to insure that Wedge gets his shot.

I'm also against PTL on Wedge (especially with BB-8) because he only has two actions. Why does he need PTL? Predator or VI makes more sense.

Many on this forum have been telling me a long time about how whatever ship isn't worth the points. If I'm at a tournament I'm flying one of two ships predominantly: X-wings and Starvipers. They fly just fine

Unfortunately, though the T-70 is correctly priced for what it offers, the T-65 is not. You need to factor in both cost and abilities before considering if the ship is good. Imagine a graph, where the X axis is 'points', and the Y is 'roughly how good the ship is. For a ship to be worth taking, it has to be good for it's points.

Fact is, the maths show the T-65 has been lagging behind the curve since day 1. Point per point, the humble TIE Fighter has always bested the X-Wing.

Unfortunately, though the T-70 is correctly priced for what it offers, the T-65 is not. You need to factor in both cost and abilities before considering if the ship is good. Imagine a graph, where the X axis is 'points', and the Y is 'roughly how good the ship is. For a ship to be worth taking, it has to be good for it's points.

Fact is, the maths show the T-65 has been lagging behind the curve since day 1. Point per point, the humble TIE Fighter has always bested the X-Wing.

Nice base-line general graph; I love visuals. However, I still am not convinced you have a valid point. Perhaps if you input data of X-wing ships to illustrate your point it would be useful in the thread.

Sadly my graph is too much of a simplification to have actual data put into it, but it still serves it's purpose at illustrating the general idea behind what the community considers a 'good' ship. There are just too many factors of what makes a good ship for that graph to have any proper mathematical value though.

Most ships don't really have an objective way of measuring how good they are, so working out if they're good is rather tricky.

Luckily, Majorjuggler and his famous Mathwing posts are able to make use of one of the few objective measures we have: How good a ship is at trading shot for shot (aka jousting). This doesn't always reflect how good a ship is (IE the TIE Interceptor has a bad jousting value, because it's meant to arc dodge and shoot without being shot), but for certain ships (like the X-Wing and TIE Fighter) the values give a good indication of how good a ship is.

So roughly, if we go back to my graph, imagine the TIE fighter being dead on the red line at the low end of the points axis.

The X-wing would be below the red line at about double the points.

If you've never heard of Mathwing and Jousting Values before, I advise you to check MJs 'index of useful links' thread.

If you've never heard of Mathwing and Jousting Values before, I advise you to check MJs 'index of useful links' thread.

By that logic, you should be pretty happy with IA as the X-wing fix. MJ states it places the original X-wing just about on par with the B-wing! We've been stating for years now that the B-wing is under-cost.

If you've never heard of Mathwing and Jousting Values before, I advise you to check MJs 'index of useful links' thread.

By that logic, you should be pretty happy with IA as the X-wing fix. MJ states it places the original X-wing just about on par with the B-wing! We've been stating for years now that the B-wing is under-cost.

It actually puts it slightly below the B-Wing. And the B-Wing has barrel-roll, access to FCS (which put's it's jousting value miles ahead), and doesn't have to give up 2 slots to be worth looking twice at.

EDIT: If you want the numbers, here you are:

B-wing + FCS: 95.3%

B-wing: 92.5%

X-wing + I.A: 92.3% (3/2/1/5 @ 22)

X-wing + I.A: 91.3% (3/2/2/4 @ 22)

X-wing: 86.3%

Depending on how much you value IA, the X-Wing is still between 0.2 and 1.2% worse at jousting than the B-Wing. And the B-Wing get's it's efficiency for free, and can increase it by taking FCS.

Cause Wedge getting PtL + BB-8 for free can't possibly go wrong.

nanana bat-wedge!

If you've never heard of Mathwing and Jousting Values before, I advise you to check MJs 'index of useful links' thread.

By that logic, you should be pretty happy with IA as the X-wing fix. MJ states it places the original X-wing just about on par with the B-wing! We've been stating for years now that the B-wing is under-cost.

It actually puts it slightly below the B-Wing. And the B-Wing has barrel-roll, access to FCS (which put's it's jousting value miles ahead), and doesn't have to give up 2 slots to be worth looking twice at.

If you've never heard of Mathwing and Jousting Values before, I advise you to check MJs 'index of useful links' thread.

By that logic, you should be pretty happy with IA as the X-wing fix. MJ states it places the original X-wing just about on par with the B-wing! We've been stating for years now that the B-wing is under-cost.

It actually puts it slightly below the B-Wing. And the B-Wing has barrel-roll, access to FCS (which put's it's jousting value miles ahead), and doesn't have to give up 2 slots to be worth looking twice at.

Biggest problem atm is that the all Turret Meta (read U-Boats and Quad TLT) devalue the B-wing out of the game.

If the Jumpmaster had a Right side Blindspot then Daggers and Uniques would have a chance but as it is atm, they can always put some hits on you wherever you are and are cheap enough for that torpedo 1st pass. B-wing can't outfly the Jumpmaster and can't outshoot it. TLT is just broken.

Depending on how much you value IA, the X-Wing is still between 0.2 and 1.2% worse at jousting than the B-Wing. And the B-Wing get's it's efficiency for free, and can increase it by taking FCS.

In the world of science and statistics, those differences are negligible.

The game has changed a lot in the last few waves. Strict jousting numbers are no where near the story it was over the first few waves. Multiple attacks, new offense and defense upgrades, and abilities have changed the game. Mostly for the better. I remember when the Interceptor first came out and many of us LOVED it, but hated how quickly they died. The Fat Han use to be the bane of many X-wing players' existence. (How the mighty have fallen.) And for the longest time, B-wings were just broken... why fly anything else?

FFG is bringing it back to the dials. Flight skill is being rewarded. Few ships have the options that the X-wings have. I've never relied on PTL and have put a lot of time into learning how to read the board. Waves 8 and 9 have rewarded my play style.

Depending on how much you value IA, the X-Wing is still between 0.2 and 1.2% worse at jousting than the B-Wing. And the B-Wing get's it's efficiency for free, and can increase it by taking FCS.

In the world of science and statistics, those differences are negligible.

Not in the slightest. Chemical experiments have to be tested to within 0.5% confidence limits. Statistics being 1% out can be very important.

As for 'the B-Wing broke it'. No. Just... No. The B-Wing was taken over the X-Wing because it's actually points efficient. The B-Wing gave the Rebels an option they didn't have before: a ship good at jousting. You might as well claim the Z-95 broke the X-Wing, or the T-70 broke the X-Wing.

No. It's not that all the ships that came after the X-Wing are mysteriously overpowered. It's that the X-Wing is bad.

It's been bad relative to the TIE Fighter since day 1. And the TIE fighter has a better dial, AND the evade and barrel roll actions. There's a reason the TIE Fighter is still flown everywhere and the X-Wing isn't.

And it ain't the B-Wing

I still think the X-Wing is underestimated. Non-generics are very good at getting stuff off of the board when they focus fire. Yeah it needs a little luck, and I would argue a little more skill to be useful, but it's a tough old bird, most likely a regenerating tough old bird. Again I firmly believe it needs a little push to make it truly competetive, but the original point of this thread and some comments here make it sound like I am better of taking a 20 pt rock than an X. Anyway, that's my opinion, and the opinion of a lot of space junk my t-65s have created...

Anything that needs a little luck to do anything at all isnt underestimated. Thats called getting lucky with something that shouldnt have been that lucky.

Edit - come to think of it that would make a rather neat double-sided card.

One side allows you to flip a blank to a focus on offensive rolls - the other on defense rolls - giving you additional tactical options depending on what you're facing.

Gives a nice boost to Garven as he'll always be able to get some added value from his ability ( no more spending focus to convert zero eyeballs)

Luke becomes a big fat beast

And it won't do any harm to generics who move early and rarely lose actions.

Make that a title and we've got a fix on our hands. Facing a TIE Swarm? Take the offensive side and try and out-dps them.

Facing Aces? Take the defensive title and try to out-turtle them.

You'd still have to fly well to beat them, but it can be done. You've got less of a hill to climb.

Yeah - that's pretty much what I was thinking - don't see why it should be a Title though, seems to me much better as a astromech as it meshes with Integrated Astromech at no cost.

Right now, if you've got 22 points to spend and you want 3 attack dice, you'll bring a B-Wing - the ability to stick an astromech and IA on a rookie but keep it at 21 might make it a viable alternative

Another problem with the X-wing is that it is an all-rounder in a game that increasingly rewards specialisation. Look at the most popular pilots/squads and you will see they are usually the ones that allow you to dial a particular aspect up to 11! Red Ace + Comms Relay + AT + R2-D2 = regenerating tank. Soontir + AT + SD + PTL = Unkillable turtle. Torpedo Scout = Maximum modification alpha-strike.

In theory an all-rounder should be able to fight against a specialist if the owning player can exploit the specialists' weak spots. The problem is that there are too many units that don't really have a significant weak spot. Their strengths are built on top of a generally robust platform. Red Ace is a tank but still has the decent dial and Boost of a T70. The Tie Interceptor may be a glass cannon but Soontir's multiple defensive bonuses make him more like an unhittable cannon. Etc.

Ships that have strengths but also weaknesses tend to get discarded by the meta. Just look at the pre-Vets Defender: it had 3s for every stat and a white K-turn but a high cost and a stiff dial. As a result, it did not feature much in competitive play.

As long as generalists get out-performed by specialists, the T65 will struggle to be competitive.

Depending on how much you value IA, the X-Wing is still between 0.2 and 1.2% worse at jousting than the B-Wing. And the B-Wing get's it's efficiency for free, and can increase it by taking FCS.

Yeah - but that efficiency list is leaving out a few harder to quantify metrics - the first being Variance. The B-wing has a lower variance in it's defensive profile. The B-wing has a pretty well defined lifespan, there are times when the X-wing is going to live a lot longer than it should due to its 2 agility, as well as times when it will die more quickly - even if it's likely to explode on average at about the same time a b-wing would.

.2% to 1.2% worse may not be significant enough to matter in the confines of 100 points. Consider that we don't know the margin of error in Jugglers numbers - and there are multiple different sources of error in MJ's final numbers - Namely based on how accurate each of his assumptions are, and that error may not affect everything equally (And I doubt that he will deny making assumptions, and most of his assumptions are likely reasonable (dial concerns, how often the ship is defending or attacking with focus).

I'd look much more seriously at the initial positioning and attack line and action choices your ships are taking, and how that is affecting games, I'd wager that there's more in that to leverage than in the choice between taking a rookie x-wing with an astromech or a blue squadron b-wing.