I am going to throw a lot of information out as I think out loud. TL:DR - Pair Whisper with RAC at the cost of an dicemod EPT on Chirpy or just run Soontir? Is Gunner 'required' with DeciVader?

I am putting together a DeciVader and Friend list for my local store tournament. I have a few versions I am throwing around. I am also trying to decide which friend (Soontir vs Whisper) will serve me best. I am trying to decide on a few finer points of each list.

Pertinent Background and Thoughts:

- I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH TRIPLE JUMPMASTERS [No one is willing to drop for everything required]

- I expect at least two Triple Aces builds. Both have Soontir and Inquisitor and they vary with Vader vs Omega Leader (Can't remember entire list now, but they both are at 99 pts)

- I would really like to protect the 98 pts limit...I feel confident I can outmaneuver my opponent if given second movement.

- I don't have Emperor Palpatine or Agent Kallus...working on getting access to them but working on assumption I cannot.

- HOW IMPORTANT IS GUNNER? I lean towards Gunner personally (especially with token Aces about), but I want to know if those 5 points can be better spent elsewhere?

- Ysanne Isard?

These are the versions I am currently working on:

With Soontir...

Version 1: (w/ Gunner) [98 pts]

RAC (63 pts)

Lone Wolf

Darth Vader

Rebel Captive

Gunner

EU

Soontir Fel (35 pts)

PTL

RGT

AT

SD

Version 2: (w/o Gunner) [98 pts]

RAC (63 pts)

Predator

Seismic Charges

Tactician

Darth Vader

Rebel Captive

EU

Soontir Fel (35 pts)

PTL

RGT

AT

SD

Thoughts:

Seismic Charges or Ion Bombs?

Is Tactician going to justify itself?

With Whisper:

Version 1: (w/ Gunner) [98 pts]

RAC [58 pts]

Adaptability

Darth Vader

Gunner

EU

Whisper [40 pts]

VI

FCS

Intelligence Agent

ACD

Thoughts:

- Intel Agent feels like a toss-in. Can I better utilize this point?

- Adaptability vs VI. Does VI mean I can go up to 99/100?

Version 2: (w/o Gunner) [98 pts]

RAC [56 pts]

Adaptability

Darth Vader

Rebel Captive

EU

Whisper [42 pts]

VI

Tactician

Recon Specialist

ACD

Thoughts:

- Is Recon Specialist my best option on Whisper?

- Who should have Rebel Captive?

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

I like this list on principle as I really like both of those ships. I am concerned though that as it sits at 100 pts I will just lose initiative to the Aces, who are making 1 pt bids, who can then dodge Soontir's arc. Omega Leader has been doing work at local game night on aces and so I am open to builds utilizing his anti-ace with RAC's.

I don't mean to shut it down, I am open to hear your perspective though. Have you played this list at all? I love Omega Leader and Inquisitor, but I feel like RAC takes some of the variance out of Deci's dice that Patrol Leader doesn't have. I really like that I can use by PS 9 friend to strip tokens and then RAC and Vader have a chance to lay some crits.

EDIT: Because apparently I don't know the difference between Soontir and RAC at 2 AM! Also corrected 'Omega Leader and Vader' to 'Omega Leader and Inquisitor'

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

I like this list on principle as I really like both of those ships. I am concerned though that as it sits at _ pts I will just lose initiative to the Aces, who are making _ pt bids, who can then dodge DeciVader's arc + _.

Considering the Decimator has a PWT, dodging is easier said than done. If they dodge beyond Range 3 then they won't be shooting back at you either. OK Aces may be able to dodge to a position where they can trigger Autothrusters but that is what Vader is there to handle. Losing initiative with this squad really only matters against other PS8 ships. PS9+ ships will get the drop on you anyway which makes the Init bid less important IMHO. At PS9+, an init bid is important, at PS8, it is more of a nice-to-have.

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

That list looks quite nifty, how does it do against palp Aces or uBoats?

I call my RAC + Ace lists "Crime and Punishment".

The RAC that I pair with the phantom is:

RAC + VI + Vader + Isard + Jerjerrod+ EU (60)
Whisper + ACD + VI + RC (40)

That brings RAC to PS10, which means he shoots before Soontir and most other aces (unless its Vader VI'd). Vader is there for the last 1-2 hp (or anything I can do to Soontir) only. Jerjerrod can eject Vader late game for a little survivability, and then boot himself later. Add that to Isard's free evade action, and RAC becomes a little more survivable.

Rebel captive on Whisper is one of my favorite crew for her.

Personally, I find VI + Isard a better way to spend 5 points on a Decivader than Gunner.

I call my RAC + Ace lists "Crime and Punishment".

The RAC that I pair with the phantom is:

RAC + VI + Vader + Isard + Jerjerrod+ EU (60)

Whisper + ACD + VI + RC (40)

That brings RAC to PS10, which means he shoots before Soontir and most other aces (unless its Vader VI'd). Vader is there for the last 1-2 hp (or anything I can do to Soontir) only. Jerjerrod can eject Vader late game for a little survivability, and then boot himself later. Add that to Isard's free evade action, and RAC becomes a little more survivable.

Rebel captive on Whisper is one of my favorite crew for her.

Personally, I find VI + Isard a better way to spend 5 points on a Decivader than Gunner.

You could also put RC on RAC and Kallus on Whisper instead of Jerjerrod who is rather meh. Just an idea

Your version one whisper setup is what I used since January. I used kallus on Whisper though and rarely made use of him. Keep yours as is.

You will absolutely wreck aces lists and moisten your sensitive skin in their salty tears.

Wich...is a shame. You will want that skin toughened because every other list that isn't aces will set your list on fire and laugh and dance and drink and make merry.

You would be bringing scissors and hoping to get matched with paper. But since wave 8...there's a whole lot of rock floating around.

As for new thought: Anyone have any experience running a similar list against the Jumpmasters? On paper it looks tough, but is taking down one Jumpmaster before losing DeciVader enough to let Whisper/Soontir run the table?

Your version one whisper setup is what I used since January. I used kallus on Whisper though and rarely made use of him. Keep yours as is.

You will absolutely wreck aces lists and moisten your sensitive skin in their salty tears.

Wich...is a shame. You will want that skin toughened because every other list that isn't aces will set your list on fire and laugh and dance and drink and make merry.

You would be bringing scissors and hoping to get matched with paper. But since wave 8...there's a whole lot of rock floating around.

This is my primary concern. The top two players, typically, are likely bringing Triple Aces. The rest of the field is mixed, but typically not finely tuned. I am struggling to think how to balance this. My primary concern is something with a lot of HP that will take time to punch through. Jump15k is a concern, but I don't think any of the local players have dropped enough to put it together as I haven't seen it at all. What do you think we could change about the list to help minimize some of the bad match-ups, or improve some of the mediocre?

Personally, I find VI + Isard a better way to spend 5 points on a Decivader than Gunner.

Thanks! I love this idea but am struggling with the variance introduced without Predator. I feel like between Predator and Chirpy's pilot ability I can reliably still have hit/hit/crit and still have my action for boosting into range/out of arc. What is your experience? Does the longevity of Isard and PS10 outweigh the drop in reliability of Predator? Both Ace lists I expect to see from the top players are PS 8/8 and then either 9 or 10 (Soontir vs Vader w/adaptability) so I feel relatively confident at 8 if I can give them initiative. But maybe my confidence is misplaced...

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader
- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay
- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

I like this list on principle as I really like both of those ships. I am concerned though that as it sits at _ pts I will just lose initiative to the Aces, who are making _ pt bids, who can then dodge DeciVader's arc + _.

Considering the Decimator has a PWT, dodging is easier said than done. If they dodge beyond Range 3 then they won't be shooting back at you either. OK Aces may be able to dodge to a position where they can trigger Autothrusters but that is what Vader is there to handle. Losing initiative with this squad really only matters against other PS8 ships. PS9+ ships will get the drop on you anyway which makes the Init bid less important IMHO. At PS9+, an init bid is important, at PS8, it is more of a nice-to-have.

I went back an edited the post. At 2 AM For some reason I had Vader using the arc. I meant Soontir/Whisper. I also went back and filled in the blanks that are left from my bluetooth keyboard number keys not functioning. Both of the Ace lists I am expecting run two PS 8 Aces (Omega Leader and Inquisitor) so I want to prioritize getting out of one or both arcs.

I am also concerned about the variance introduced by losing both Predator and RAC's pilot ability. If I am just looking for a Vader carrier my instincts say go Yorr w/ Vader and possibly Gunner instead. This would make room for the second Ace. Thoughts?

Re-rolling one single die for me usually just re-presents another blank. If a typical roll for me is going to be hit_blank_focus, RAC turns the focus into a hit_crit_blank, so my action is almost never a focus (no green dice means it's useless on defense...) At PS10, you're going to be moving last, so TL should be pretty easy to get, which is, to me, a better version of Predator. I'll take a TL to reroll 3-4 dice rather than Predator to reroll one. Also, at PS10, you're doing nasty things first. Shooting Soontir first to me is preferable (especially since I can follow up with a Vader crit). Killing Soontir any turn before he gets a chance to fire is ideal. Vader probably won't be VI'd up that high either, but he might be.

I only use EU to close range early, or to get out of dodge late. The rest of the time I'm in the furball pewpewing, so I need the TLs.

I see your point. The way I have been playing Decimator I rarely take the target lock, preferring to boost into range 2. As I am improving though as a player, I can see how better tactics can lead to not needing EU to get into range 2 as often. I will give it a shot and see what I think. Maybe i'll try forcing myself to play without the EU crutch in order to get a good feel.

The Vader I have been seeing around is kitted with adaptability. With that said, what are your thoughts about Adaptability vs VI if I still run at 98 pts for the initiative bid? I am leaning towards VI to make sure I can go after the Dark Lord himself.

Also:

How do you use your Ace? Do you use him to corral ships trying to avoid DeciVader or use them to 'clean-up' after DeciVader has giving its all? Or another way? What are your tactics?

Depends on my "ace". My preferred duo is actually RAC and Deathrain. I ran them tonight, actually. Killed Backstabber, Dark Curse, and a Fat Oicunn having only taken 1 hull of damage on Deathrain and two self inflicted hull on RAC. That being said, I don't feel my opponent's build was optimal.

I run Deathrain @ 39 points: Deathrain, FCS, EM, Plasma Torps, Thermal Detonators, Prox Mines, Guidance Chimps
I modified RAC a little: (61) RAC + VI + Isard + Vader + RC + EU

I like Deathrain because he moves before high PS Aces. I tried thermal detonators instead of a second prox mine, and I think I'm going back to the second mine, but I haven't decided yet.I like to run him up and drop a prox mine directly on or in front of an ace so that they can't avoid it. That gives me a free barrel roll. When I shoot someone, FCS gives me a TL. Next turn, depending on positioning, I can K-turn and shove a torp at them since I already have the TL from FCS. Or I can maneuver and lay another mine (laying mines out of the front arc is incredible... it makes a proximity mine the equivalent of a R1 attack w/ 3 dice that gets no evade roll).

My opponent didn't have Soontir, but he did have Jax, and he had initiative bid, so VI might as well have been adaptability in this case, but had he taken Soontir over Jax, then Soontir would be shooting first. As predicted, placing RAC last meant I did a 4 straight and boosted into a R2 attack on Jax on turn 1, in arc.

For me, VI to 10 means that if they don't have a PS mod on Vader/Soontir, then I get to attack and Vader crit them before they get to shoot back. Worth it every time, if you ask me.

That being said, some critical mistakes that my opponent made, in no particular order:

Took the Dauntless title. It's horrible. Leave it. He used the title to give himself a focus, which stressed him. He didn't realize that Isard is an action, not a free token, so he screwed himself out of an evade there.

Bumped RAC with Oicunn, knowing that Oicunn would end up on a rock. So he basically gave up a R1-2 modified shot w/ Oicunn @ RAC in favor of doing 1 ram damage. /boggle.. That was the turn that I returned fire with RAC after he bumped me at R2, with a TL, for a hit crit (modified) hit (rerolled from TL). His shields were already down at this point. I gave him a vadering since he was already in hull. Deathrain was already lined up on him, but was unfortunately at R1, so it was a TL modified 3 dice primary weapon attack, that landed for 2 more hits, and a fresh TL from FCS. His TIES were out of position, having completely overshot me, and having to maneuver around asteroids.

Asteroids are another important thing. I always try and keep close to them. It's easier for me to visualize my maneuvers to figure out where I"m going to be if I'm already close to a rock.

Other mistakes: I accidentally set a red maneuver after Jade stressed me (forgot about the **** stress). He tried to park me on a rock, but missed, lining me up for a perfect shot on Oicunn (that was the R1 primary weapon shot mentioned above). He also maneuvered a TIE in for what would have been a great R1 shot, but when I revealed my dial, I dropped a Thermal Detonator, doing an auto damage and a stress to his TIE. Since the TIE had to green to clear it, I knew where it would likely end up, and I moved RAC around a 3-bank and 1 boost to get him in range. He melted.

For that matter, guess what else a VI'd RAC shoots before... if you guessed a VI'd Whisper, then you get a cookie. Decimator w/ modified dice + vader vs 2 green dice Whisper. Om nom nom nom.

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

I like this list on principle as I really like both of those ships. I am concerned though that as it sits at 100 pts I will just lose initiative to the Aces, who are making 1 pt bids, who can then dodge Soontir's arc. Omega Leader has been doing work at local game night on aces and so I am open to builds utilizing his anti-ace with RAC's.

I don't mean to shut it down, I am open to hear your perspective though. Have you played this list at all? I love Omega Leader and Inquisitor, but I feel like RAC takes some of the variance out of Deci's dice that Patrol Leader doesn't have. I really like that I can use by PS 9 friend to strip tokens and then RAC and Vader have a chance to lay some crits.

EDIT: Because apparently I don't know the difference between Soontir and RAC at 2 AM! Also corrected 'Omega Leader and Vader' to 'Omega Leader and Inquisitor'

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

That list looks quite nifty, how does it do against palp Aces or uBoats?

Nope, I haven't played it, but I've been Playing OL, Inq, Palp and Wampa for ages (30+ games) and played against someone running a DeciVader at Yavin, and thought it was a really useful tool to have against Aces.

Of course Wampa is also great against Aces too, but you need to get them in Arc (easier said than done), have him and Palp alive, and do it at least twice to take someone down. Plus the Decimator itself is more fearsome than Palp, with the turret and better dial.

I think Imperial Assholes is the more balanced list, but this ^ looks perfectly fine too.

I am also concerned about the variance introduced by losing both Predator and RAC's pilot ability. If I am just looking for a Vader carrier my instincts say go Yorr w/ Vader and possibly Gunner instead. This would make room for the second Ace. Thoughts?

Trouble with the shuttle as a Vader Carrier is the poor dial and lack of PWT. The strength of DeciVader is that your opponent cannot really avoid it unless he stays outside firing range of the whole Decimator. This makes the DeciVader a real threat to Aces while its conventional firepower is good against lower agility targets.

Shuttles work better with Palp where you have enough points for 2 decent aces to counter enemy Aces. The shuttle then focuses on being survivable and shooting away at low agility targets.

I ran a silly list in a tournament once...

Doomshuttle (24)
Palpmobile (29)
Oicunn + Expert Handling + Rebel Captive (47)

It wasn't terribly effective, but it was a lot of fun.

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

Having given myself some time to think about this list, I am beginning to have a better appreciation of it. Essentially we are trading Force Choking and shooting before Aces for another Ace, and that is something I am willing to consider. No matter how consistant RAC can be, the Ace lists can just dodge it all. THe power of the list against Aces is Vader, not RAC's focus to crit. The Jump15k match-up still worries me though...unless Decimator can eat all the torps while taking one out, then maybe the Ace(s) can solo the remaining toilet seats.

I ran a silly list in a tournament once...

Doomshuttle (24)

Palpmobile (29)

Oicunn + Expert Handling + Rebel Captive (47)

It wasn't terribly effective, but it was a lot of fun.

I might have to take a page from your book and take this to game night! I am confident it would provide JUST enough frustration to annoy but be fun for all!

I am also concerned about the variance introduced by losing both Predator and RAC's pilot ability. If I am just looking for a Vader carrier my instincts say go Yorr w/ Vader and possibly Gunner instead. This would make room for the second Ace. Thoughts?

Trouble with the shuttle as a Vader Carrier is the poor dial and lack of PWT. The strength of DeciVader is that your opponent cannot really avoid it unless he stays outside firing range of the whole Decimator. This makes the DeciVader a real threat to Aces while its conventional firepower is good against lower agility targets.

Shuttles work better with Palp where you have enough points for 2 decent aces to counter enemy Aces. The shuttle then focuses on being survivable and shooting away at low agility targets.

I agree the PWT is the biggest upside to Decimator over Shuttle. And the dial...Space Cow does trundle along. I am simply commenting on the point cost (16) of 'only' upgrading for it. I wanted to raise the point that the second ace might be a better use of points.

I personally will be staying with Decimator (likely RAC) for the consistent and reliable damage output with a PWT. The more I have thought about it though, the more open I am to the idea of minimal points in DeciVader.

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Ok, so I am feeling as though I need to be viewing the Decivader + Ace list with the emphasis on DeciVader force choke first (and maybe put in some damage), yet have my Ace move second for positioning. That would necessitate VI pushing RAC to PS 10 and encourage an initiative bid (if I make one I am going to 98) to allow me to cede initiative.

Or option 2: Go as cheap as possible on DeciVader and fill in the rest. MOV suffers when Decivader is always below half points, and often dead. Doesn't matter if I don't lose, but hurts immensely when on the edge of a cut. I might need to open my eyes to the fact that DeciVader will almost always DIE and be open to minimizing that effect on the list.

Comments? Experience? Theoretical Match-up thoughts?

EDIT: Everything had been quoted twice.

I don't think there's a list out there that can do *everything*. Wolfpack is probably the biggest danger to this list, though, in my opinion. The decimator can soak up a lot of damage, but it can't mitigate it. Kenkirk can do *some* mitigation, but probably not enough.

If you're really feeling lucky, there's always double decimator...

I've also flown this in a tourney. (for the record, I've flown 2 tourneys, first was the Lambda Lambda Oicunn list, second was this).

DOUBLE D'S

100 points

PILOTS

Captain Oicunn (45)
VT-49 Decimator (42), Adaptability (0), Darth Vader (3)

Commander Kenkirk (55)
VT-49 Decimator (44), Adaptability (0), Ysanne Isard (4), Rebel Captive (3), Engine Upgrade (4)

32 hp, and Kenkirk has some longevity with Isard, just make sure you don't get stressed before the combat phase (debris is bad, mkay?). With 6 red dice, plus mods, and a vader tantrum, you might be able to murder a toilet seat before it gets to shoot. Worst case is that they expend their ordinance on one deci or the other, and total it early. But then you're facing down 3 relatively easy to hit ships with low firepower. Downside is that it isn't as good against aces.

I've also run Kenkirk with PTL instead of EU and Adaptability. Then throw VI on Oicunn, so they're both PS6. Use PTL as a reaction to Isard's evade action, so you'll have a focus, TL, and evade. The dial doesn't have much green, but if you're sitting in a spot where it's worth doing that, then setting a 2 speed green isn't the end of the world. Suddenly a decimator at R3 (which is where aces try to keep it) has 2 green dice and an evade token (3 greens if you're behind a rock). Gets a lot harder to kill, fast. Though the green dice fail us all at some point.

Regarding MOV, there's almost NO way that a decimator isn't going to take 8 HP in damage. Anything flying with Isard actually WANTS to take 5 damage, especially if it's Kenkirk, or you're using some sort of PTL/EI shenanigans off of Isard's action. If I roll a decimator w/ Isard and Vader on it, I go for aces/shieldless ships first, so that the vader damage is stripping my shields to get me to Isard's ability while laying some hate on my opponent. Once I've done that, I lay off of vader and let the evading 3 dice modding turret ship w/ no red maneuvers do its thing, and roam about murdering at will.

Currently I am staring down the barrel of these two lists.

VI Chirpy + Soontir (98)

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (63) - VT-49 Decimator

Veteran Instincts (1), Darth Vader (3), Ysanne Isard (4), Gunner (5), Engine Upgrade (4)

Soontir Fel (35) - TIE Interceptor

Push The Limit (3), Royal Guard TIE (0), Autothrusters (2), Stealth Device (3)

AND

You can also run:

- Patrol Leader + Vader

- Omega Leader + Juke & Comm Relay

- Inquisitor + Title, Thrusters and PTL

That second list is pretty brutal...

I've been running these two deci lists lately:

31 Inquisitor w/ PtL, AT, V1.

26 Omega Leader w/ Juke, Comms.

43 Patrol w/ Vader.

34 Inquisitor w/ PtL, PRockets, AT, V1.

52 Oicunn w/ EH, Gunner, Vader.

12 Academy.

Someone else has mentioned the first list. It's a good list because you have a strong anti-ace ship in the deci, which helps you erase an opponent's aces, but then you've got your own aces to finish the game.

The second list was my original version of the first list. The academy is an awesome little blocker that is just annoying to deal with, and the Oicunn build is my favourite deci-vader build, that I've run for ages. He deletes aces incredibly effectively. Inquisitor is the closer that wins me the game. 2pt initiative bid is optional, I like it to outbid all the 8's (Oicunn erases the common 9's like soontir).

FWIW, my RAC + Deathrain list pretty tabled Miranda + Dash in 5 rounds today. Dash didn't make it into round 3.

FWIW, my RAC + Deathrain list pretty tabled Miranda + Dash in 5 rounds today. Dash didn't make it into round 3.

Congrats! Which reminds me that I meant to ask, from your experience, when/why Deathrain over a traditional 'ace'?