I would argue that Rhymer may be the only Auto include in the game and if you don't take Rhymer then you take demolisher.

While I agree that both Rhymer and Demo are simplifying the use of the fleet a lot and therefore tend to be autoincluded, I believe that I provided a counterexample to your statement by winning two regionals with the fleet that didn't have either of them

The only thing that I think I see veteran gunners working on is if there is a ship with two weapon team slots on a ship and an ion cannon that is just soooo fantastic that you want to keep.

I would argue that Rhymer may be the only Auto include in the game and if you don't take Rhymer then you take demolisher.

While I agree that both Rhymer and Demo are simplifying the use of the fleet a lot and therefore tend to be autoincluded, I believe that I provided a counterexample to your statement by winning two regionals with the fleet that didn't have either of them ta, well

Ya, well...you could give me the New England Patriots, but I'm not going to be able to coach them like Bellichek. Get my meaning?

The only thing that I think I see veteran gunners working on is if there is a ship with two weapon team slots on a ship and an ion cannon that is just soooo fantastic that you want to keep.

Or a Vic1 with EA. Still pretty marginal.

Few things;

1. Another great episode, thanks guys. I get all the wierd looks while I sit there with a huge smile on the C train during morning rush hour.

2. I very much agree with the antisquad rhymer ball. I ran one that had a little more bomber omph then berger runs, but still very antisquad focused during the Vassal World Cup and it felt pretty good till I got way out activated. But ts important to realize that a card like Bomber Command Center buffs all squadrons. Bombers for obvious reasons, but also anti squadron focused fighters because they are now that much more valuable to you. I think every wave has made it so those antisquad options are a bit more enticing, and as someone who loves the squadron game I couldn't be happier about that. Plus I love playing Soontir Fel so any reason to is gravy.

3. PT, your fleet is the exception that proves the rule. Also, it sort of still plays into the same strengths a DEMSU has, but its bulkier. I love it so much. I tried to do a five ship imp fleet with an ISD, and it worked ok, but I didn't have the chutzpah to put TWO in! I think that does a great job of working around the traditional pitfall of the DEMSU, which is its fragility. I do think a strong bomber focused ball could be an issue for it though, which I think I heard you say you ran into up in Boston? Whatever, I'm still mad my computer crapped out and I didnt get to play agaisnt it in the galactic thing.

The only thing that I think I see veteran gunners working on is if there is a ship with two weapon team slots on a ship and an ion cannon that is just soooo fantastic that you want to keep.

Or a Vic1 with EA. Still pretty marginal.

Oh it is for sure marginal either way. The cards are still too wonky. Same thing with XI7s. Why don't we see more Heavy Turbolasers? Because with the ships out now, XI7s are better against facing potentially any fleet configuration.

These marginal weapons teams I think will only see use if somehow the liberty or interdictor has two slots for them. And even then, leading shots is probably better anyway.

Thanks for the Warhammer Quest game during the round 1 bye at Regionals, Dano. Great game, good times!

PT, your fleet is the exception that proves the rule. Also, it sort of still plays into the same strengths a DEMSU has, but its bulkier. I love it so much. I tried to do a five ship imp fleet with an ISD, and it worked ok, but I didn't have the chutzpah to put TWO in! I think that does a great job of working around the traditional pitfall of the DEMSU, which is its fragility. I do think a strong bomber focused ball could be an issue for it though, which I think I heard you say you ran into up in Boston? Whatever, I'm still mad my computer crapped out and I didnt get to play agaisnt it in the galactic thing.

Agreed, what I have is a variation of MSU theme but I still believe that it proves that one can be competitive without Demo or Rhymer and this is the only point I'm arguing. In Boston my losses were more of my own making (I didn't have enough tabletop exposure and didn't have experience flying it against imperials) and a good play from my opponents than match ups. Even then I did 5-5 against a DeMSU Rhymerball.

I would argue that Rhymer may be the only Auto include in the game and if you don't take Rhymer then you take demolisher.

While I agree that both Rhymer and Demo are simplifying the use of the fleet a lot and therefore tend to be autoincluded, I believe that I provided a counterexample to your statement by winning two regionals with the fleet that didn't have either of them

Yes match ups definitely count a ton too.

Thanks for the Warhammer Quest game during the round 1 bye at Regionals, Dano. Great game, good times!

The Light of Sigmar upon you! "LET OUR ZEAL BE THEIR DOOOOOM!"

Our regional was certainly an odd duck in that it had zero DeMSU or Rhymer presence, IIRC. There might have been one or two lists that I didn't see, but the presence of either was minimal. It was a very Rebel-heavy tournament.

PT, your fleet is the exception that proves the rule. Also, it sort of still plays into the same strengths a DEMSU has, but its bulkier. I love it so much. I tried to do a five ship imp fleet with an ISD, and it worked ok, but I didn't have the chutzpah to put TWO in! I think that does a great job of working around the traditional pitfall of the DEMSU, which is its fragility. I do think a strong bomber focused ball could be an issue for it though, which I think I heard you say you ran into up in Boston? Whatever, I'm still mad my computer crapped out and I didnt get to play agaisnt it in the galactic thing.

Agreed, what I have is a variation of MSU theme but I still believe that it proves that one can be competitive without Demo or Rhymer and this is the only point I'm arguing. In Boston my losses were more of my own making (I didn't have enough tabletop exposure and didn't have experience flying it against imperials) and a good play from my opponents than match ups. Even then I did 5-5 against a DeMSU Rhymerball.

While I agree i still feel that Rhymer and Demo are strong enough that your probably shouldn't leave him with out one or the other. You prove that theory wrong for sure, but every rule has an exception.

PT, your fleet is the exception that proves the rule. Also, it sort of still plays into the same strengths a DEMSU has, but its bulkier. I love it so much. I tried to do a five ship imp fleet with an ISD, and it worked ok, but I didn't have the chutzpah to put TWO in! I think that does a great job of working around the traditional pitfall of the DEMSU, which is its fragility. I do think a strong bomber focused ball could be an issue for it though, which I think I heard you say you ran into up in Boston? Whatever, I'm still mad my computer crapped out and I didnt get to play agaisnt it in the galactic thing.

Agreed, what I have is a variation of MSU theme but I still believe that it proves that one can be competitive without Demo or Rhymer and this is the only point I'm arguing. In Boston my losses were more of my own making (I didn't have enough tabletop exposure and didn't have experience flying it against imperials) and a good play from my opponents than match ups. Even then I did 5-5 against a DeMSU Rhymerball.

I will also suggest part of the advantage you currently experience, which will degrade over time (as we are seeing with DeMSU) is that people are unfamiliar with how to play against your list. Most people are not used to two ISDs with the ability to go very late in the turn order, and don't understand how much their movement profile needs to change in response to that.

This, to be clear, is not to understate your play (you are really good), but rather that your smashing success is a combination of your strength and the way your list inspires weakness in most opponents.

I bring up the second point because I think it's something most people don't think enough about - not just "does my list work" but also "how will my opponent react to it and how does it fit with the things they think they need to beat".

Just a thought,

You IFF guys ever up for an Ask me Anything?

I guess that depends- not sure what insights we could provide! Also, depends on how personal it gets

I guess that depends- not sure what insights we could provide! Also, depends on how personal it gets

Would you guys also be up for next stream where we can pick the lists you play with?

At the very least, *I* am up to play with a community list. I will have to ask my opponent if they are similarly comfortable.

PT, your fleet is the exception that proves the rule. Also, it sort of still plays into the same strengths a DEMSU has, but its bulkier. I love it so much. I tried to do a five ship imp fleet with an ISD, and it worked ok, but I didn't have the chutzpah to put TWO in! I think that does a great job of working around the traditional pitfall of the DEMSU, which is its fragility. I do think a strong bomber focused ball could be an issue for it though, which I think I heard you say you ran into up in Boston? Whatever, I'm still mad my computer crapped out and I didnt get to play agaisnt it in the galactic thing.

Agreed, what I have is a variation of MSU theme but I still believe that it proves that one can be competitive without Demo or Rhymer and this is the only point I'm arguing. In Boston my losses were more of my own making (I didn't have enough tabletop exposure and didn't have experience flying it against imperials) and a good play from my opponents than match ups. Even then I did 5-5 against a DeMSU Rhymerball.

I will also suggest part of the advantage you currently experience, which will degrade over time (as we are seeing with DeMSU) is that people are unfamiliar with how to play against your list. Most people are not used to two ISDs with the ability to go very late in the turn order, and don't understand how much their movement profile needs to change in response to that.

This, to be clear, is not to understate your play (you are really good), but rather that your smashing success is a combination of your strength and the way your list inspires weakness in most opponents.

I bring up the second point because I think it's something most people don't think enough about - not just "does my list work" but also "how will my opponent react to it and how does it fit with the things they think they need to beat".

I experienced that list. As a guy with little flight time leading up to the game (nevermind against living people in general) I had no idea how to approach it.

I will also suggest part of the advantage you currently experience, which will degrade over time (as we are seeing with DeMSU) is that people are unfamiliar with how to play against your list. Most people are not used to two ISDs with the ability to go very late in the turn order, and don't understand how much their movement profile needs to change in response to that.

I totally agree and did mention it as one of the strong points of this list right now - hence the name of the fleet (As a matter of fact both my round 3 opponents in Regionals made a mistake of giving me first player, which proves your point). I believe that bringing a list people are unfamiliar with is a significant advantage in a major tournament. I also think that we'll see a lot of anti-Rhymerball fleets at Nationals (the same way we saw a lot of Rieekan recently), so the meta should be open enough for the unexpected fleet to win. However I do find that the common thought is that one needs to be lucky with matchups to get anywhere with this type of fleet, which I find surprising.

At the very least, *I* am up to play with a community list. I will have to ask my opponent if they are similarly comfortable.

I still want you to run DtO. I want to see how someone else runs it.

Tournaments is about the lucky of who you play. A player can learn to play against a Rhymerball or just how to handle Demolisher, but somethings like DeMSU are just not so common.

@Lyr- alright I'll give it a shot

@Lyr- alright I'll give it a shot

Yay! New perspective.

I request that you fly it against a Rhymerball if at all possible. I want to see how your methods differ in handeling that match up

I request that you fly it against a Rhymerball if at all possible. I want to see how your methods differ in handeling that match up

That will be a match to watch!

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/219187-dodonna-the-oppressor-revised/

The only change to this list is using Fire Lanes instead of Contested Outpost. First player is 100% preferred