Some of the comments in the other thread about everyone's favorite ship got me thinking. Am I the only one who doesn't always fly Soontir Fel as super-defensive ship?

In particular, I've seen a lot of comments about how people wish Soontir had better offense. Seriously?

How can a ship that has three red dice, a focus almost every turn, plus two more actions and the flexibility to fairly easily sneak into range one of an enemy not be considered a good offensive ship?

I know the popular load-out is PTL, Autothrusters, and Stealth Device. I also know that the "experts" consider that the best way to fly him is to go all in on defense while taking little nibbles out of your opponents, trusting that you will wear them down (either on the board, or off via mental breakdown) before they can land a hit on you.

That said, I've seen myself (and all too few others) have incredible success by swapping Targeting Computer for Stealth Device. Soontir can still stay alive by merely staying out of opponents arcs and autothrusters keeps him strong vs turrets. Meanwhile, you have an upgrade that doesn't go away, plus gives you the ability to be at range one of an opponent and have a target lock and a focus. I can't tell you how many times I've boosted or barrel rolled into range one and PTL'd for a TL and focus. This is particularly useful with ships that need to be taken down fast due to regen.

Not to mention, offensive Soontir is often much more exciting for both players.

Is it some sort of crazy groupthink that results in the same Soontir builds all the time, are there a lot of people using Soontir more offensively (just not in my neck of the woods), or am I off my rocker and need to learn how to play the game?

Edit: tl;dr - What do you think of dumping stealth device for targeting computer on Soontir and/or flying him more offensively?

there are two ways to fly soontir with more offense, lesser defense

1. carnor jax

2. the inquisitor

TA soontir is pretty spiffy too, but the best part about it is that it telegraphs how much of a confident son of a ***** you are

I put TC on him... he dies too quick.

I put SD on him.... he doesn't have the punch hahaha

I think the defense minded Soontir is partly due to the emperor at this point. The emperor has a multiplicative effect on upgrades, in a way, so if you go a little defensive the emperor wants you to go all out defensive. If you go offense the emperor would probably be most effective with all out offense. In offense and defense balanced lists, the emperor isn't as effective overall.

I could see offense Soontir or balanced Soontir in a triple aces list, but if you are bringing Sheev you will have the most luck turtling.

I used to fly targeting computer soontir with my palp aces because he certainly hits quite hard and locally there were several counters to stealth device being flown. It's a fun build. That said, I have to echo fgd and say the inquisitor makes him look like a nerd imo. Hits harder and turns off dodgy range 3 effects while the greens on 1 maneuvers does a crazy amount to make him a nimble little sucker in asteroids.

If you really want a very different soontir build play him with daredevil. It's bad but hilarious.

I think the defense minded Soontir is partly due to the emperor at this point. The emperor has a multiplicative effect on upgrades, in a way, so if you go a little defensive the emperor wants you to go all out defensive. If you go offense the emperor would probably be most effective with all out offense. In offense and defense balanced lists, the emperor isn't as effective overall.

I could see offense Soontir or balanced Soontir in a triple aces list, but if you are bringing Sheev you will have the most luck turtling.

That's an interesting thought. I've only used Soontir with the Emperor a few times. I would think that the Emperor would favor a balanced Soontir as the Emperor could boost offense or defense as needed, so you don't have to sell out one way or the other. That said, I'll have to fly it some more.

I quite often fly Soontir with Title, PTL, Autothrusters and TIE MKII

My reasoning is that:

A.). I'm still a Soontir noob and regularly run out of green on the dial

B). Soontir's best defense is not to be shot at - a larger initiative bid to help ensure he moves last can only help in that regard

everytime i take soontir without SD a bad crit gets through.

Variance. Sometimes you roll blanks, even on red dice.

One of these days I want to try RRRAAEEEG Soontir just for a laugh - get range 1, rage, shoot, then next turn 4-straight, hope, next turn hard-2, boost, back in the fight, and continue just going in for single attack passes.

It would probably be terrible but it would be fun.

I think the defense minded Soontir is partly due to the emperor at this point. The emperor has a multiplicative effect on upgrades, in a way, so if you go a little defensive the emperor wants you to go all out defensive. If you go offense the emperor would probably be most effective with all out offense. In offense and defense balanced lists, the emperor isn't as effective overall.

I could see offense Soontir or balanced Soontir in a triple aces list, but if you are bringing Sheev you will have the most luck turtling.

That's an interesting thought. I've only used Soontir with the Emperor a few times. I would think that the Emperor would favor a balanced Soontir as the Emperor could boost offense or defense as needed, so you don't have to sell out one way or the other. That said, I'll have to fly it some more.

The emperor could free you from stealth device for targeting computer, and keep Soontir at the same level of pretty much unhittable while increasing offense. But with Stealth Device AND the Emperor he is so darn unhittable that you pretty much need feedback array, autoblasters, or bombs.

The emperor brings defensive Soontir from "you have to get lucky to hit him" to "even luck won't save you now". I think the strategy of dealing with Palp Soontir Ace these days is kill the not-Soontir, then Palp, and hope you have enough points left to beat Soontir at time. Even with multiple four dice attacks it is incredibly hard to break the Stealth Device.

Edit: That was why regen Poe was so good at worlds, Soontir couldn't put enough damage on him to stick, and he was more than 35 points. The Scouts ruined that strategy, however.

Yeah, Palp/Soontir can generate four evades from only a single result of any sort, out of arc or at range 3 and with actions, and is functionally immune to 3-die attacks, so he's got a LOT fo compensation for terrible dice available. And as long as his dice are average, he can usually hold on to his tokens almost indefinitely.

Of course, when his dice stink, he's in trouble, as I repeatedly discovered last weekend

I too often find Stealth Device to be over kill on Soontir. In a 60 to 75 minute game, I want to hit and not be hit. I love putting Targeting Computer on Fel. Often I find I have maneuvered him in a way that he will not endure return fire and I have an extra action I can perform. TL (and the focus) helps insure my red dice come up hits. In a timed game... I'll take TC over SD every time.

everytime i take soontir without SD a bad crit gets through.

Well every time I take him WITH SD, a bad crit gets through

Of course, I don't use palp shuttles anymore, so there's that.

If I had palpatine int he list, SD is a no-brainer. You get the potential for better offense and better defense and it doesn't cost an action.

Otherwise I prefer Target Comp. 1 point cheaper allows a better initiative bid, and SD doesn't even protect Soontir from crackshot half the time, so you're bound to have it be a waste of points at least one game per tourney (considering how popular crack shot is). TC on the other hand has almost always been worth it for me in the sense that it almost always results in at least one extra damage per game (often more).

Regardless of which upgrade I use though, it doesn't change how I fly Soontir...

I flew almost 100 straight tournament games with Soontir. I find overall he's better with Stealth Device, but if he survives to end game, he's way more of a beast with Targeting Computer. So it really depends on his support and how you want your alpha attacks to be. If you can afford for him to stay back and sift through the rubble after your support does some damage, go with TC. If you need him to be more active and engage earlier, go with SD.

Two things to consider:

What I do find, is that no matter what he has, my opponents generally treated him the same. So in saying that, having SD is harder for them to kill, thus taking shots away from your support to dodge keeping them alive longer.

With SD, it takes away the choice (and temptation) to target lock, thus making your decisions a bit easier. You almost always token up unless you can barrel roll or boost into our out of a good shot.

I think the defense minded Soontir is partly due to the emperor at this point. The emperor has a multiplicative effect on upgrades, in a way, so if you go a little defensive the emperor wants you to go all out defensive. If you go offense the emperor would probably be most effective with all out offense. In offense and defense balanced lists, the emperor isn't as effective overall.

I could see offense Soontir or balanced Soontir in a triple aces list, but if you are bringing Sheev you will have the most luck turtling.

That's an interesting thought. I've only used Soontir with the Emperor a few times. I would think that the Emperor would favor a balanced Soontir as the Emperor could boost offense or defense as needed, so you don't have to sell out one way or the other. That said, I'll have to fly it some more.

The emperor could free you from stealth device for targeting computer, and keep Soontir at the same level of pretty much unhittable while increasing offense. But with Stealth Device AND the Emperor he is so darn unhittable that you pretty much need feedback array, autoblasters, or bombs.

The emperor brings defensive Soontir from "you have to get lucky to hit him" to "even luck won't save you now". I think the strategy of dealing with Palp Soontir Ace these days is kill the not-Soontir, then Palp, and hope you have enough points left to beat Soontir at time. Even with multiple four dice attacks it is incredibly hard to break the Stealth Device.

Edit: That was why regen Poe was so good at worlds, Soontir couldn't put enough damage on him to stick, and he was more than 35 points. The Scouts ruined that strategy, however.

Poe and other regen ships are one of the reasons I love TC Soontir. Soontir can still do his shenanigans to get out of arc, meanwhile, he has the oomph to push through multiple hits and take down a regen ship.

I'll have to try him more with the Emperor. I've generally flown him with two other aces or with multiple other ships. Even with TC, Soontir is typically the toughest to bring down of the group. I've also found that with a large number of ships (4+) on the board, the opponent often seems to feel the need to quickly dial down my offensive potential and first tries to eliminate the easy to kill ships. At these times, when he is mostly being ignored, I prefer to have Soontir hit as hard as possible.

I don't really run Interceptors much, Fel even less so, but if I did, I'd do Targeting Computer, just because I hate for a centerpiece ship to be so reliant on non-rerolling red dice. I'm not saying it's better than SD, but I'd have a lot more fun.

I flew almost 100 straight tournament games with Soontir. I find overall he's better with Stealth Device, but if he survives to end game, he's way more of a beast with Targeting Computer. So it really depends on his support and how you want your alpha attacks to be. If you can afford for him to stay back and sift through the rubble after your support does some damage, go with TC. If you need him to be more active and engage earlier, go with SD.

Two things to consider:

What I do find, is that no matter what he has, my opponents generally treated him the same. So in saying that, having SD is harder for them to kill, thus taking shots away from your support to dodge keeping them alive longer.

With SD, it takes away the choice (and temptation) to target lock, thus making your decisions a bit easier. You almost always token up unless you can barrel roll or boost into our out of a good shot.

Good point about the endgame vs early game value.

I've found success using him as a flanker. I force the opponent to either split their forces or choose to pursue either Soontir or the rest of my squad.

If they split, then Soontir can usually handle most ships one-on-one, if not, I'll feint toward the opposing ship and then make a break towards the other engagement, usually resulting in a turn or two before the opponents ships can catch up and be relevant. If the opponent goes all in on one front, they usually turn toward my main force, leaving Soontir to hammer them from behind. If they choose Soontir, I turtle up and/or use a speed 5 straight to get out of there while my main force comes up on their rear.

reason hes always a defensive ship is its insanely hard to punch through a 3die focus/evade as it is, even worse with 4. Hes one of the few that can do this and still have arc-dodgyness since his focus comes from pilot ability not action.

I doubleup on the focus alot and use it offensively and defensively alot. He still does a lot of **** damage.

Though i admit i am tempted to run him with a tie shuttle to see how he fares without palp, but with a free targetlock. You can acquire a targetlock without the action if something else tells you do it.

Poe and other regen ships are one of the reasons I love TC Soontir. Soontir can still do his shenanigans to get out of arc, meanwhile, he has the oomph to push through multiple hits and take down a regen ship.

I'll have to try him more with the Emperor. I've generally flown him with two other aces or with multiple other ships. Even with TC, Soontir is typically the toughest to bring down of the group. I've also found that with a large number of ships (4+) on the board, the opponent often seems to feel the need to quickly dial down my offensive potential and first tries to eliminate the easy to kill ships. At these times, when he is mostly being ignored, I prefer to have Soontir hit as hard as possible.

Yeah, when you have offense I think more offense is the way to go. Palp aces is this weird place where you don't need to care about offense, because eventually something will get through as long as you live forever.

The Jack-of -all-trades balanced offense and defense lists are way more fun, and you have a fighting chance at every game. The "top-tier" lists have one thing they excel at, generally. If they do that thing they get their knockout and you can get lunch. If you are prevented doing that thing, then you have to trade punches.

Edit: to over extend the sports metaphors, Walter Peyton said it best: Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships.

I think three aces is more fun than a Palp shuttle. So I run the standard Fel for maximum survivability. I get offense from a standard build Inquisitor and Conner Jax with TC instead of SD.

May have to try Fel with TC and the Palp shuttle just once.

I just lost Soontir to direct-hit one-shots in three out of six of my Yavin games, so I think it may be time for me to hang up my Interceptor spurs for a while, just for my blood pressure. I refused to bring Palp along, and I paid the boom-price, I guess.

When I return I absolutely think I'll be taking TL Soontir out more than stealth.

I am rebel scum, but whenever I am going to fly an Imperial ship you can bet Fel is on the list. Heck I bought 3 net interceptors just to field him properly. In any case when I run him he is a flanker assassin, it has always astounded me how he can go from a seemingly safe distance to right up a hapless foes afterburner. I love the targeting computer on him and using his friends as a core distraction force while he slips around. If they go for Fel that's fine, he can turtle and his squadron will tear them apart.

I would note, if you are running palp aces since you have 3 ships typically you need Fel to survive or you list is in trouble. As such a defense minded Fel makes more sense than when he's flying with say 3 other interceptors

With SD, it takes away the choice (and temptation) to target lock, thus making your decisions a bit easier. You almost always token up unless you can barrel roll or boost into our out of a good shot.

When preparing for long tournaments, simplicity is the best defense against mental errors. Many of the lists that are seen over and over again in the top 8 are such lists. The list is designed to be played in a straight forward manner, giving little room for mental error.

Smaller tournaments allow for more complicated lists generally. I also find I like TC on Soontir if I'm running him as a part of Palp Aces. The Focus and Evade tokens can be used for defense (and Palp will take care of the rest) and the TL can be used for offense.