Well, we need a ruling on this because I can't see The tourney rolling forward without it... I will happily run 2 if possible, but only 1 otherwise... but ya, list creation with bcc is either going to be sub optimal or redundant without a definitive ruling on the matter

I've stated a prefence that: "There is no rule that states you could not benefit from multiple rerolls from multiple Bomber commands. The "While attacking" trigger will trigger multiple times."

Nowhere do we have a rule that states you cannot benefit from a duplicate upgrade - although, this is the first time it comes up. There must be a rule created to disallow this, whereas simple reading allows it by not calling it out specifically.

But, I am not the Leader of this Tournament.

But consider that a ruling for our league, Skycake

Its not like its not already.

2-3 rerolls is very powerful, if bcc stacked you can get up to 9 rerolls, NINE!!!

thats basically a 100% chance to get a double hit....

On how many bombers?

Even if your list is nothing but TIE bombers and Rhymer with 9 Gozanti's with BCC you would be VERY weak to enemy squadrons.

It is not invincible and Intel Officer will make the scatter disappear fast.

Its not like its not already.

2-3 rerolls is very powerful, if bcc stacked you can get up to 9 rerolls, NINE!!!

thats basically a 100% chance to get a double hit....

Well assumiming your opponent is a complete moron this build will dominate

do you understand how much damage a rhymer ball with intel support can do when every bomber rolls 2 damage?

Not going to do much at all if I've got decent ant squadron choices. More so when my list is built from actual ships threat do stuff and all you have is bombers. Intel can't be everywhere and if you aren't running escorts won't last long. If you are running Intel and escorts then you don't have so many bombers etc etc.

On how many bombers?

Even if your list is nothing but TIE bombers and Rhymer with 9 Gozanti's with BCC you would be VERY weak to enemy squadrons.

It is not invincible and Intel Officer will make the scatter disappear fast.

I agree. Interesting concept but let's put it on the table before we declare the sky falling and the only hope is to wait for a rule clarification which probably won't come.

You could have 9 Gozanti Cruisers with BCC's for 279 points, 9 TIE Bombers for 81 points, 1 Major Rhymer for 16 points and Motti for 24 points. That is a perfect 400 point list.

Your ships only have blue dice but they have the hull of a Raider. You get 9 bomber rerolls, you have a total of 14 deployments and 9 ship activations. 5 of which can move the bombers around. You have no teeth otherwise and if you get locked up you are done.

Hmmm, I can see where you guys are coming from on multiple Bomber Command rerolls. I'll check rules reference and make a call on it shortly.

It doesn't matter to me anyways. It makes Nym and B-Wings more reliable and makes Wiffwalker decent

Rules Reference didn't clarify anything for me, and FAQ doesn't address this issue.

I'm leaning towards the idea that an ability granted by an upgrade card, regardless of how many sources of that upgrade card exist, can only be gained once. This would mean the BCC effect only works once per squadron per attack. You have greater coverage and redundancy from putting it on multiple ships, but that's it.

In this way, you would also get greater benefit from running, say, BCC and Toryn Farr, as the two upgrade cards give an option for rerolling two dice (or even the same dice twice).

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Let me know what you think, and if you have any counter-examples that shoot this theory out of the water.

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Let me know what you think, and if you have any counter-examples that shoot this theory out of the water.

In the discussion we had previously in the Rules Forums, I came to the opposite conclusion.

There simple are no examples of the rule in question, as we have never had the ability to stack an upgrade card thusfar.

Your Decision is Your Decision to make. There is no Guidance either way, Doobleg.

I decided the opposite to you, because it would cause FFG to write a Rules Errata (not just an FAQ), stating that "You cannot benefit from the Same Upgrade Card Twice", where as I simply apply occam's razor to it, and take the easiest path - that path is, it is allowable, as there is nothing to stop the one event from triggering multiple triggers - why would it matter if those triggers are from the same named card...

If it were meant to be Unique... it would have a Period before the Name, after all

Toryn Farr exists for Blue Dice.

Bomber Command exists for Bombers.

The List of Bombers with Blue Dice is fairly Short on the Rebel Side. (B-Wings, Scurrgs)

But of course, I don't have a horse in this race - I'm commenting because its a Rules Question - I'm still not able to take part in the actual Tournament itself

Not to mention that it is an 8 point upgrade. All upgrades in that range are usually powerful. Intel Officer, TRC's, etc. It would be interesting to see an upgrade that is at the high end of the points spectrum not stack but that is just me.

Not to mention that it is an 8 point upgrade. All upgrades in that range are usually powerful. Intel Officer, TRC's, etc. It would be interesting to see an upgrade that is at the high end of the points spectrum not stack but that is just me.

Not to mention that it is an 8 point upgrade. All upgrades in that range are usually powerful. Intel Officer, TRC's, etc. It would be interesting to see an upgrade that is at the high end of the points spectrum not stack but that is just me.

it costs a lot because it can reroll a lot of basically undefendably attacks

Well, you can do the math but the cheapest bomber is what 9 points. So at best you can get is 14 TIE Bombers. So on average out of those 14 you will get a 25% chance for a hit crit, a 50% chance of a hit, and a 25% chance for a miss. So a single reroll does not cover your odds much and getting 14 TIE Bombers in AND be able to attack, a lot harder than one thinks, oh and be in distance 5 of the BCC craft.

Now remember this upgrade only works on bombers so what, 6 out of 16 different squadrons can use this. Sorry 6.5, forgot dash but that means it jumps up to what, 13.5 out of 32 squadron units when we add in aces.

That honestly is not that many.

I need to point out that Dash is an outlier because of his unique card text. In reality, 6 of the six available generic squadrons come with Bomber.

But let's break it down a bit further:

Rebels have 8 total generic squadron hulls at the moment. Of those 8, 4 are bombers. Of the remainder, another 2 are black dice generic battery armament. Their lowest hull value is 4.

Imperials also have 8, but only two generic bombers. Of the remainder, there are only 2 more ships with black dice generic battery attacks, those being the TIE Advanced and the Aggressor. Their lowest hull value is 3, which is on two of their generic squadrons. Imperials have been coasting on the power of one unique squadron to accomplish their attack runs.

But that's not all.

Of the 6 non-bomber Imperial fighters, none of the anti-fighters squads has dice equal to the average number of hull points of a generic rebel fighter, except for the A-Wing. While they can improve the number of anti-squadron dice, these upgrades are expensive and provide no damage increase to ships.

This is a major imbalance towards Rebels in an environment where the cost of squadron activation has dropped so severely.

I need to point out that Dash is an outlier because of his unique card text. In reality, 6 of the six available generic squadrons come with Bomber.

You mean 4 of the 8 original squadrons.

I need to point out that Dash is an outlier because of his unique card text. In reality, 6 of the six available generic squadrons come with Bomber.

But let's break it down a bit further:

Rebels have 8 total generic squadron hulls at the moment. Of those 8, 4 are bombers. Of the remainder, another 2 are black dice generic battery armament. Their lowest hull value is 4.

Are you talking about rebel bombers or not?

A-Wings are not bombers and this don't benefits from BCC.

The lowest hull a Rebel bomber has is 5, the lowest Anti-squadron value is 2 (held by the Scrugg and Y-Wing), highest hull is 6 and all of those have a speed of 3 or less.

Imperials also have 8, but only two generic bombers. Of the remainder, there are only 2 more ships with black dice generic battery attacks, those being the TIE Advanced and the Aggressor. Their lowest hull value is 3, which is on two of their generic squadrons. Imperials have been coasting on the power of one unique squadron to accomplish their attack runs.

Of the Imperial bombers, they have 5 Hull and 6 hull, they are cheaper, and faster. Oh and the Firespray has Rouge.

Not sure the issue there. Speed 3 and 4 with supporting upgrades that make them faster (titles on the VSD and now Gozanti) with an Ace that gives them the range of a CR90 B. What's the issue again?

But that's not all.

Of the 6 non-bomber Imperial fighters, none of the anti-fighters squads has dice equal to the average number of hull points of a generic rebel fighter, except for the A-Wing. While they can improve the number of anti-squadron dice, these upgrades are expensive and provide no damage increase to ships.

Wait. . . What?!

The Rebels only have dice equal to the tie Fighter and Interceptor which are EXTREMELY CHEAP and have Swarm.

The Imperials have some of the best synergy between their aces and generic squadrons and I will gladly make a list proving this.

This is a major imbalance towards Rebels in an environment where the cost of squadron activation has dropped so severely.

Huh? It is still 13 points for an X-Wing right?

If you are talking about the flotillas being cheap and easy squadron platforms, that is a GOOD THING!

Honestly, I was getting tired of clubbing Rhymerball lists over the head by turn 4 when all their ships were destroyed. I am happy they are getting the boost, both sides needed it.

I think a comparison of squadron on squadron focussing on hull points ignores the importance of speed... Consider that those xwings looking to bomb your whatever are speed 3 so need to sit forward in order to do said bombing run. Means that even a tie fighter can hit them from outside of the xwings range giving them a huge alpha strike advantage.

Even more than that if you look a 2 xwings vs 3 tie fighters you've got the xwings having an extra hull but the ties an extra blue dice and an extra speed plus swarm before you even start to consider that the ties have a range of awesome buffs available from characters but the best the xwings can get is Jan Ors.

Now of course the original point was that xwings are more flexible than ties and you are dead right but imperials are cheap... so why not spend 17 points buying a bomber and a tie fighter rather than 13 for an xwing which is average at both rolls....

Frsmkly these latest waves will just end up proving that creative and original thinking will win, clonisher rewrote the meta singlehandedly because he came up with something different.

I can't wait to see what people come up with in the vassal comp. it will be a good starting point for the new ideas.

Hull points is absolutely critical, because any squadron rolling three dice can auto-kill a generic TIE Fighter or Interceptor and 4 dice or more will do so about 1 out of every 3 attacks. Neither ship can auto kill a Rebel ship, and can only kill most Rebel ships by rolling five or more dice. That is a massive investment in synergies to accomplish that level of damage output, at a minimum cost of over 20 points and 5 more points per additional ship. Flight Controllers works on X-Wings too.

People act like Imperial squadrons have some ridiculous offensive synergy, but usually if you take out a single squadron that synergy is gone and the remaining squads are drastically depleted for offensive power. Rebel defensive synergies suually require killing 2+ squadrons or whole ships to accomplish.

Hull points is absolutely critical, because any squadron rolling three dice can auto-kill a generic TIE Fighter or Interceptor and 4 dice or more will do so about 1 out of every 3 attacks. Neither ship can auto kill a Rebel ship, and can only kill most Rebel ships by rolling five or more dice. That is a massive investment in synergies to accomplish that level of damage output, at a minimum cost of over 20 points and 5 more points per additional ship. Flight Controllers works on X-Wings too.

People act like Imperial squadrons have some ridiculous offensive synergy, but usually if you take out a single squadron that synergy is gone and the remaining squads are drastically depleted for offensive power. Rebel defensive synergies suually require killing 2+ squadrons or whole ships to accomplish.

You're dead right but if hit I'll points are so important so is speed. Those xwings can't one shot anything if you kill them first because you are faster. And the synergies you get from swarm and howl runner are amazing if used properly. Doesn't take much to keep howl runner alive with darth as an escort. If you buy 4 tie fighters and howl runner that would only get you 4 xwings for the points. Those ties would kill 2 xwings safely before the xwings got a response and there's no way those two remaining xwings are going to level the field. If those xwings get the alpha strike off on your faster tie fighters you're doing it wrong.

If any imperial player can't pull that off they need to look at what their doing not the stats of the squadrons.

Rules Reference didn't clarify anything for me, and FAQ doesn't address this issue.

I'm leaning towards the idea that an ability granted by an upgrade card, regardless of how many sources of that upgrade card exist, can only be gained once. This would mean the BCC effect only works once per squadron per attack. You have greater coverage and redundancy from putting it on multiple ships, but that's it.

In this way, you would also get greater benefit from running, say, BCC and Toryn Farr, as the two upgrade cards give an option for rerolling two dice (or even the same dice twice).

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Let me know what you think, and if you have any counter-examples that shoot this theory out of the water.

As a counter example: Leading Shots, nothing in the rules or on the card prevents you from spending multiple blue dice to reroll multiple times. Yes there is a cost for it, (the blue die spent in this case) but there is a cost for BCC as well, 8 points isn't exactly cheep.

Rules Reference didn't clarify anything for me, and FAQ doesn't address this issue.

I'm leaning towards the idea that an ability granted by an upgrade card, regardless of how many sources of that upgrade card exist, can only be gained once. This would mean the BCC effect only works once per squadron per attack. You have greater coverage and redundancy from putting it on multiple ships, but that's it.

In this way, you would also get greater benefit from running, say, BCC and Toryn Farr, as the two upgrade cards give an option for rerolling two dice (or even the same dice twice).

Anyway, these are my initial thoughts. Let me know what you think, and if you have any counter-examples that shoot this theory out of the water.

As a counter example: Leading Shots, nothing in the rules or on the card prevents you from spending multiple blue dice to reroll multiple times. Yes there is a cost for it, (the blue die spent in this case) but there is a cost for BCC as well, 8 points isn't exactly cheep.

Clontroper's on it. What we're looking at is the "Effect Use and Timing" section of the Rules Reference:

"A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event."

BCC states:

"While a friendly squadron with Bomber at distance 1-5 is attacking a ship, it may reroll 1 die."

As such, even if there are multiple BCCs in play, the effect of BCC can only be used once during a squadron's attack.

Clontroper's on it. What we're looking at is the "Effect Use and Timing" section of the Rules Reference:

"A “while” effect can be resolved during the specified event and cannot occur again during that instance of the event."

BCC states:

"While a friendly squadron with Bomber at distance 1-5 is attacking a ship, it may reroll 1 die."

As such, even if there are multiple BCCs in play, the effect of BCC can only be used once during a squadron's attack.

The obvious counter argument is that each individual card is its own entity since it is on a different flotilla. Thus each "While" has a trigger.

Leading Shots can be used on squadrons repeatedly. Per previous rulings, each new squadron target counts as a new attack for the purposes of special abilities.

Which ducks, because that would make Devastator the most OP antisquadron ship imaginable.

What you're talking about Cactus is a ship making separate shots at each squadron. Each new attack is a new trigger that allows the use of Leading Shots anew.

With BCC and the bombers, they're making one attack each, and as such only provide one trigger for the BCC effect.

Doobleg, let's not turn this into a rule discussion thread stop discussing this here, this horse has already been beaten to death in the appropriate forum

Please just make a clear ruling for the purpose of the tournament, and have a look at Jamming field while you're at it.