I also saw that and thought the other way:

The fact that that specifies it proves that is the exception don't you think?

If quality usually affects rarity they would have no reason to specify the Near Unique since of course Best Quality would go up in rarity, however that they specify it for only Cerebral Implants implies that the other items do not change in quality.

My thougth ( I hope that word is correct) process was that the finale plus or Minus to the influence check determines the rarity.

About the clarification on the cerebral implants i think they are more about stating how rare and far between they are than about an reception to a rule

But any other Cybernetic which was Very Rare (which is most of them) and Good (-20) or Best (-30) Quality would be Near Unique or Unique. So it isn't any more exceptionally rare than everything else, with that in mind why would they state that they are Near Unique which doesn't fit anything

If you look at page 141 of the Dark Heresy rulebook is states that it affects the requisition and repair modifiers, it doesn't say it affects the availability. However the three initial requisitions very specifically state only the availability rather than saying the character can requisition three items which had a net modifier of -10.

Regarding the actual topic at hand, if you get good influence you could just roll to acquire power armour when the game starts.

It affects the ability to acquire it but if it affected rarity they wouldn't say -30 for best, they would say move up two steps on the rarity. At least that's what I would do.

The -30 is just the easy way of showing how far to go down the rarity table, and from the other conversations you had on the forums don't you think you have some very different ideas on what you would do versus what was done?

Regarding the actual topic at hand, if you get good influence you could just roll to acquire power armour when the game starts.

Yep, there was a topic specifically about that. It'd be poor, but it'd be there.

It affects the ability to acquire it but if it affected rarity they wouldn't say -30 for best, they would say move up two steps on the rarity. At least that's what I would do.

The -30 is just the easy way of showing how far to go down the rarity table, and from the other conversations you had on the forums don't you think you have some very different ideas on what you would do versus what was done?

Then what is their motive in saying Scare instead of a Difficult Requisition test? What is their motive in, as Ciurra rightly points out, the Cereberal Implants? Why state that they are Near Unique and not for the rest of stuff?

Then what is their motive in saying Scare instead of a Difficult Requisition test? What is their motive in, as Ciurra rightly points out, the Cereberal Implants? Why state that they are Near Unique and not for the rest of stuff?

Good cerebral implants are very rare even among high ranking Imperial officials, and are exceedingly difficult to acquire, becoming Near Unique in Availability.

I do not understand how anyone can read this sentence and believe that it's only a Punishing test just like every other Very Rare Good quality item. It specifically refers to the Availability not the Requisition modifier? Why?

You just had a huge issue over consistency in RT, DH2 isn't spared that.

I don't know why, if it's that big an issue email them a rules question and we can get some final words on the issue. It's not the end of the world for me. It makes sense that quality has a modifier to the rarity of an item and so that's how we've (my group) has always played it.

No one's ever gotten cerebral implants so the issue never came up, but if it came up I'd take the RAW for it and have it be NU because it explicitly goes against the common thing of taking the common rarity and modifying by quality value.

Then what is their motive in saying Scare instead of a Difficult Requisition test? What is their motive in, as Ciurra rightly points out, the Cereberal Implants? Why state that they are Near Unique and not for the rest of stuff?

Good cerebral implants are very rare even among high ranking Imperial officials, and are exceedingly difficult to acquire, becoming Near Unique in Availability.

I do not understand how anyone can read this sentence and believe that it's only a Punishing test just like every other Very Rare Good quality item. It specifically refers to the Availability not the Requisition modifier? Why?

You just had a huge issue over consistency in RT, DH2 isn't spared that.

I don't know why, if it's that big an issue email them a rules question and we can get some final words on the issue. It's not the end of the world for me. It makes sense that quality has a modifier to the rarity of an item and so that's how we've (my group) has always played it.

No one's ever gotten cerebral implants so the issue never came up, but if it came up I'd take the RAW for it and have it be NU because it explicitly goes against the common thing of taking the common rarity and modifying by quality value.

Well it's only inconsistent depending on how you read it.

Quality already modifies how difficult it is to acquire something, that's the point of it penalising the rarity test. If we used your logic that it modifies the rarity then how rare is a best quality extremely rare item? Is there no difference in rarity for best quality and good quality extremely rare/near unique items, no difference between common quality and best quality Unique items? That seems a really odd and nonsensical opinion of the universe. Vice versa works too, Poor Quality Ubiquitous items are just as a rare as Common Quality Ubiquitous items?

What is wrong with them being harder to acquire without changing the nature of their availability?

Also I do not understand your last comment, obviously it becomes Near Unique, but is it -70 (-60) or -50? What if they want a Best Quality version?

Well it's only inconsistent depending on how you read it.

Quality already modifies how difficult it is to acquire something, that's the point of it penalising the rarity test. If we used your logic that it modifies the rarity then how rare is a best quality extremely rare item? Is there no difference in rarity for best quality and good quality extremely rare/near unique items, no difference between common quality and best quality Unique items? That seems a really odd and nonsensical opinion of the universe. Vice versa works too, Poor Quality Ubiquitous items are just as a rare as Common Quality Ubiquitous items?

What is wrong with them being harder to acquire without changing the nature of their availability?

Also I do not understand your last comment, obviously it becomes Near Unique, but is it -70 (-60) or -50? What if they want a Best Quality version?

You're not understanding what I'm stating.

Common quality rarity is base.

Modify overall rarity by desired quality.

NU then further addon the difference between the Best and Good modifier (I don't have a book near me so I can't just write it here.) Essentially making it Unique If I remember right, unless RAW already covers that specifically for the cybernetic in the first place..

So you're saying that them stating it was Near Unique was them telling you it was the same as all the other ones? That there was no purpose or meaning behind that statement?

.

After all if that wasn't written you would assume a net -50 anyway (Very Rare -30, Good -20 = -50), so to you them explicitly specifying on Implants even though they don't do it anywhere else that I saw in all the gear in all the books that Good Quality becomes Near Unique is useless information?

I mean I guess if you think of the designers like that it's your choice, I would hope by their 5th iteration of this system they wouldn't be randomly doing things like that.

So you're saying that them stating it was Near Unique was them telling you it was the same as all the other ones? That there was no purpose or meaning behind that statement?

.

After all if that wasn't written you would assume a net -50 anyway (Very Rare -30, Good -20 = -50), so to you them explicitly specifying on Implants even though they don't do it anywhere else that I saw in all the gear in all the books that Good Quality becomes Near Unique is useless information?

I mean I guess if you think of the designers like that it's your choice, I would hope by their 5th iteration of this system they wouldn't be randomly doing things like that.

No, you're not understanding me again.

Them saying a cybernetic is a certain rarity overrides the usual system that I'd use to determine how rare it is.

I'm not saying the information is useless, you're over applying the information.

Again, this has literally never been an issue in any game I've ever run, and on top of that I don't even have a book to look at here.

What's the common quality rarity of the implant?

How much does Good Quality apply to items usually in terms of getting a hold of one?

What is Near Unique's availability usually?

Even then let's suppose that this all works out and NU is -50 and that the cybernetic ends up being -50 even with good. It just reinforces the system I'd usually be using, so it wouldn't matter to me.

Even then further, you just seem to have an overabundance of issues with the 40k lines in general man. Rules heavy systems are like this you get to a point where there's so much stuff to have in there that consistency becomes incredibly difficult to maintain. Look at the other big ones out there like DnD or Pathfinder or GURPS and you'll find consistency issues in there as well.

It's not a big deal to me because it takes like 5 minutes to fully look at and come to a decision and ask the table if they care that much over it. If I was that bothered by it, I'd ask in about the rule in question and get my answer there.

" No, you're not understanding me again."

I did ask you for numbers like five times and you said you used as Near Unique, and you explicitly said that to you craftsmanship modifiers are a modification of Availability therefore if you use Near Unique are you now saying you were not accounting for craftsmanship?

" Them saying a cybernetic is a certain rarity overrides the usual system that I'd use to determine how rare it is."

Your usual system as I understand it is take the craftsmanship + the normal availability and combine them. That would get you a Near Unique rarity. That's the exact same as what they've said. You're not overriding anything.

" Again, this has literally never been an issue in any game I've ever run, and on top of that I don't even have a book to look at here."

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Also maybe you shouldn't be commenting on threads when you don't even know what the subject is talking about.

" What's the common quality rarity of the implant?"

Very rare, as I said like, fifty times.

" How much does Good Quality apply to items usually in terms of getting a hold of one?"

-20, as I said like, fifty times.

" What is Near Unique's availability usually?"

-50, as I said like, fifty times.

" Even then let's suppose that this all works out and NU is -50 and that the cybernetic ends up being -50 even with good. It just reinforces the system I'd usually be using, so it wouldn't matter to me."

That's what I said, and then I asked you why they said that if all it does is reinforces your system? Why did they choose to say something so redundant (for you) on a very specific item?

" Even then further, you just seem to have an overabundance of issues with the 40k lines in general man. Rules heavy systems are like this you get to a point where there's so much stuff to have in there that consistency becomes incredibly difficult to maintain. Look at the other big ones out there like DnD or Pathfinder or GURPS and you'll find consistency issues in there as well."

I don't get what your point is, when I played and ran Pathfinder I posted plenty on the forums about the issues with it (though I think Pathfinder is really well done compared to the rest of the stuff, it's a standard I repeatedly hold other games too). I rebrewed AD&D 2e and 5th edition a bunch of times. I helped out with feedback on D&D Next to attempt to fix some stuff before it would happen. Anyway if it's inconsistent then it needs fixed so what's the issue here? Are you bothered that I want to fix inconsistencies?

" It's not a big deal to me because it takes like 5 minutes to fully look at and come to a decision and ask the table if they care that much over it. If I was that bothered by it, I'd ask in about the rule in question and get my answer there."

Why do you even reply to this stuff? There are plenty of people who've read this thread and went "oh well I don't have an issue with this" and what they did was they didn't bother typing up a post because why would they bother commenting on something that has no effect on them? I'm as clueless about your motivations as the developers; my very sentence that you decided needed your input to was very explicitly talking about RAW (not what I thought would make sense). Curiously even though I was agreeing with a previous poster you didn't bother replying to them. Just stop replying to these threads if your games run perfectly.

Why do you even reply to this stuff? There are plenty of people who've read this thread and went "oh well I don't have an issue with this" and what they did was they didn't bother typing up a post because why would they bother commenting on something that has no effect on them? I'm as clueless about your motivations as the developers; my very sentence that you decided needed your input to was very explicitly talking about RAW (not what I thought would make sense). Curiously even though I was agreeing with a previous poster you didn't bother replying to them. Just stop replying to these threads if your games run perfectly.

You know what I'm just going to ignore the rest of this reply. I seems like all you'd like to do is demote any general discourse with a moderately insulting tone after a certain point, you don't run the forums, you don't own them, and you don't police them either. I commented because I wanted to.

No one's games are perfect RMcD because they're run by humans and humans are innately imperfect. Games just have varying degrees of issues people have with them, and from everything I've seen in like 90% of your replies you don't like it when people disagree with the inherent ideas you have about something so you're right there's no real reason to keep replying to you in these threads at least.

For someone who apparently prides himself on reading the books more closely than anyone else here, you sure do a sh*t job at it RMcD. How about you get your head out your ass first before posting and while you're at it refrain from insulting one of the most experienced people on this forum.

Did you actually highlight your book or did you just find that picture?

I used snipping tool on my pdf that I have on my laptop , the physical books are back home.

Thank you ScKoNi that information is very interesting but it still doesn't clarify what the designers meant in the Cranial point. I hope other people in this thread take this an example as how to be useful to discussion.

Also to my reading the fact that that it says is subject of Game Masters discretion means that they don't become a rarer availability on top of becoming harder to acquire via craftsmanship modifier.

It's also interesting that it excludes armour and weapon from the modifiers: "For OTHER goods and services" which is strange indeed because to me a good (-20) rare (-20) item would always be a -40 roll regardless of whether it was an armour or weapon but that seems to be different from what they intend.

So to clarify you think the designers intended for poor quality power armour to be available as an initial item or do you think that armour and weapons are excluded? So they could acquire best quality scarce armour/weapon or poor quality rare non-weapon/armour (so gear/ammo)

What you find in the book in terms of rarity is the general rarity of something that a character can acquire in the Imperium.

So the "rarity" aspect depends on the place that a character finds himself in. Good luck trying to find Plasma Weaponry on a Feudal World/Feral World while it might be much easier to acquire on a Forge World. It sets the baseline for other modifiers. The quality of the item is a modifier on this baseline rarity of a certain item, weapon, armor, ... but it's also only a rule of thumb.

The GM is the final judge on how rare a certain item is, depending on the location and possible other factors. After all, he's running the game, it's his setting, he determines what's going on. Hence, this is all "subject of the Game Master's discretion". They can't put an absolute rule on it because it's subjective most of the time, unless they are going to print out availability tables of every single place a player could visit.

So what my GM ruled is that it is impossible to acquire anything other than Common craftsmanship through the opening rolls, and that any further rolls in game would take the Common Craftsmanship Rarity and modify it by the Craftsmanship table as appropriate.

He also ruled that in terms of degrees of success the initial acquisition counts as 0, based off the fact that it says you get 2 ammo clips, so if you take a grenade you only get 1.

In terms of rarity by location RT has good tables for that.

Amusingly Arbites start with drugs but no way to inject them.

As long as you and your group have fun, mission accomplished.

Amusingly Arbites start with drugs but no way to inject them.

I personally treat it that you can use drugs without an injector. An injector has other bonuses and allows for convenience compared to a single drug in a single syringe. Not all drugged up gangers will have an injector and I don't recall anything that specifically says you need an injector to use certain drugs.

Indeed. I assume a lot of stimms, at least, can probably be taken orally - they're basically futuristic versions of either caffiene tablets or energy drinks, after all.

Red Bloodthirster Gives You Wings (and horns, cloven feet and the Mark Of Khorne).

I generally just break the container or vials and let the contents pour all over my face while my mouth is open LMFAO