I'm sure this one has made the forums, and if so please feel free to link me to that forum. I did a search but didn't see anything obvious.

So I'm trying to figure out why the Missile Tube seems so weak. It lists its damage as 20 which is amazing against troops or a single person, but it doesn't seem to fare well against it's primary target: Vehicles. So a missile tube should, theoretically be able to pose a significant threat against a vehicle, as the written description of the item dictates. And yet the damage it does often barely does any damage whatsoever.

Base damage is 20, which, vs a vehicle, basically means a base damage of 2.

It has breach 1, so that's basically 30 damage (3 against vehicles)

A target such as an ATST has 3 armor.

The only way to do any damage against the ATST will be to hit it, and get at least 10 successes, and then you have only done 1 point of damage against it.

Am I missing something here, but that seems really weak?

Now if the damage dealt increased by 10 (or by 1 vehicle-size damage) with every success, that would make it significantly more balanced.

Thoughts? Is there a phrase in the book that I missed that better explains the damage? Is there any kind of errata on the subject?

Thanks for your help guys.

Your not missing anything its crap as written

Treat it a 2 damage vehicle weapon against vehicles and 20 damage weapon against people.

...

Am I missing something here, but that seems really weak?

...

Thoughts? Is there a phrase in the book that I missed that better explains the damage?

Yes, there is something you are missing.

The personal vs vehicle weapon dynamic is different, and that's a VERY important part of how it all works. Unlike personal on personal, a vehicle can take a crit from an attack that exceeds the armor, but it does not have to take hull trauma. So the missile launcher can crit an armor 3 vehicle fairly easily.

In the case of minion vehicles, that's an instant kill.

In the case of not minion vehicles, that causes specific damage effects.

Now, I know what you're thinking "But its still going to be hard to get a kill result." Yes and no. See while it will be had to get an actual kill, it's not that hard to disable through System Strain (a lot of crits cause SS). Also you can just render the vehicle ineffective. A vehicle without a turret can be turned into a joke with a single immobilized result.

Taking on a vehicle with personal weapons is still hard, and if you just hand your players a missile launcher and wish em the best it probably won't go well. But then again, taking on a tank on foot is probably something you want to approach with caution and a really good plan.

Of course, that also means that Thermal Detonators are much more effective anti-vehicle weapons than Missile Tubes, as they have that Vicious 4 quality. Granted, they are also much closer range and much more expensive, but that's the cost of quality.

Oddly enough, neither the Demolitionist nor the Saboteur get anything that helps them with this, as none of their talents help them overcome armor or deal better critical hits.

Edit: As an additional piece of advice, get a mechanically-oriented character to build you a custom missile launcher. It's Daunting difficulty, so they'll need some high skills or time and resources enough to grind out some schematics, and the missile launcher template only has Limited Ammo 1 instead of the 6 on the missile tube, but on the plus side, you have the potential to build a missile launcher with crit rating 1 or the vicious quality.

Or get the Flechette Launcher from Dangerous Covenants instead. 10 Damage, Breach 2, Vicious 3 with anti-vehicle flechette rounds gives some pretty decent critical hit potential.

Hi!

It seems Kaigen has the right ideas, but i would like to propose perhaps a simpler solution: jury rig the thing to lower the crit rating to one. Other options that do not quite cost as much as crafting could be the targeting goggles from Stay on Target. It helps decrease the difficulty of the check by treating the silhouette as 1 bigger. Could also add superior, for that extra advantage, Talents worth looking into include True aim (maneuver; gain benefits of aiming and upgrade ability once), Intense Focus (maneuver; upgrade ability of next skill check once), and Heavy Hitter (triumph on successful gunnery adds breach 1 or increases breach by one). Just thought I would throw out some other options.

Your not missing anything its crap as written

Treat it a 2 damage vehicle weapon against vehicles and 20 damage weapon against people.

Nope, as damage 2 vehicle weapon it would deal another point of planetary scale damage per hit. And let's be frank here, if a missile tube would be effective against heavy armored vehicles like AT-ATs then those heavy armored vehicles would be absolute and troops would run around with those missiles tubes all the time. Vehicles would reduce as to fire-support tools which bring the pain from beyond extreme range and extremely vulnerable to ambushes. Does not sound like AT-ATs anyone, right? So its fine as it is with AT-ATs that real menace which can only be stopped with heavy guns AKA planetary scale weapons.

x5

Your not missing anything its crap as written

Treat it a 2 damage vehicle weapon against vehicles and 20 damage weapon against people.

Nope, as damage 2 vehicle weapon it would deal another point of planetary scale damage per hit. And let's be frank here, if a missile tube would be effective against heavy armored vehicles like AT-ATs then those heavy armored vehicles would be absolute and troops would run around with those missiles tubes all the time. Vehicles would reduce as to fire-support tools which bring the pain from beyond extreme range and extremely vulnerable to ambushes. Does not sound like AT-ATs anyone, right? So its fine as it is with AT-ATs that real menace which can only be stopped with heavy guns AKA planetary scale weapons.

The AT-AT has Armor 5, so that would still require 3 successes to do a single point of damage with a weapon doing planetary scale Damage 2 with Breach 1. That means that the Rebels could pick away at them with missile tubes, but they're not going to go down easily.

There is also the option of Aiming at particular components with the intention of disabling that part. Its not clearly stated in the rules as to the effects of aiming at a particular component are resolved, but it implies choosing an appropriate effect from the list of Critical Hits and applying that (without it counting as a critical, so its just the effect and goes away) as a good place to start. Then its into the territory of GM's making a judgement on the actual effect based on the level of success and advantage/triumph. in this way zero damage is done but a vehicle can be slowed, weapons delayed, defences reduced etc.

Of course the best way to make this happen is be a Heavy and have the Heavy Hitter talent with 3 ranks of Barrage as well, then you get to do proper damage and a real Critical. And when we get the Soldier book in the next couple of months there may be more options.

Then if you actually want to stop any ground vehicle then just use an Anti-Vehicle Mine, it has Breach 4 with 25 Damage and Crit 2, so easy to do 2 damage, and not to dificult to do 3, with the chance of a crit super high, its a different skill set but that just gives the Mechanic something to do

x5

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the flat x10 multiplier. It's stupid simple, to be sure, but it doesn't explain why *ground troops* consistently fire at fleeing ships and the like. You'd think they'd save the ammo. x5 is more in keeping with the media, but even so...

It's the one thing I miss from WEG, how they handling scaling of attacks and damage vs objects of varying sizes, I thought it was very effective.

I would go with x5 from Sil1-4, and x10 at Sil5+.

x5

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the flat x10 multiplier. It's stupid simple, to be sure, but it doesn't explain why *ground troops* consistently fire at fleeing ships and the like. You'd think they'd save the ammo. x5 is more in keeping with the media, but even so...

It's the one thing I miss from WEG, how they handling scaling of attacks and damage vs objects of varying sizes, I thought it was very effective.

I would go with x5 from Sil1-4, and x10 at Sil5+.

I do the same for my game. It makes it more achievable to take down vehicles, not easy but achievable.

I have also stated that you can not Crit a vehicle with a Ranged weapon unless you are using a Gunnery weapon.

Of course, that also means that Thermal Detonators are much more effective anti-vehicle weapons than Missile Tubes, as they have that Vicious 4 quality. Granted, they are also much closer range and much more expensive, but that's the cost of quality.

Oddly enough, neither the Demolitionist nor the Saboteur get anything that helps them with this, as none of their talents help them overcome armor or deal better critical hits.

Edit: As an additional piece of advice, get a mechanically-oriented character to build you a custom missile launcher. It's Daunting difficulty, so they'll need some high skills or time and resources enough to grind out some schematics, and the missile launcher template only has Limited Ammo 1 instead of the 6 on the missile tube, but on the plus side, you have the potential to build a missile launcher with crit rating 1 or the vicious quality.

Or get the Flechette Launcher from Dangerous Covenants instead. 10 Damage, Breach 2, Vicious 3 with anti-vehicle flechette rounds gives some pretty decent critical hit potential.

Doesn't Dangerous Covenants expand on missiles as well? AFB at the moment, but I remember alternative payloads available, maybe one of them is specifically anti-tank/vehicle?

Dangerous Covenants adds additional missiles, but none of them have breach, so in essence the bog-standard missile tube is loaded with anti-vehicle missiles. The new missiles in DC are more anti-personnel, having less armor penetration but other effects such as Burn or Concussive instead.

Dangerous Covenants does provide some rules on explosives, though, so if you're in a situation where you can control the terrain and force enemy vehicles into predictable choke-points, wiring up some baradium charges or a bunch of proton packs might allow you to put a dent in the enemy. It'll probably take at least two traps to put down an AT-ST, however, and AT-ATs are right out.

Dangerous Covenants adds additional missiles, but none of them have breach, so in essence the bog-standard missile tube is loaded with anti-vehicle missiles. The new missiles in DC are more anti-personnel, having less armor penetration but other effects such as Burn or Concussive instead.

Dangerous Covenants does provide some rules on explosives, though, so if you're in a situation where you can control the terrain and force enemy vehicles into predictable choke-points, wiring up some baradium charges or a bunch of proton packs might allow you to put a dent in the enemy. It'll probably take at least two traps to put down an AT-ST, however, and AT-ATs are right out.

Aah. Makes sense for DC to cover anti-personnel stuff being an EoTE game, wonder if they may expand on the missile tube with the Soldier book...

Dangerous Covenants adds additional missiles, but none of them have breach, so in essence the bog-standard missile tube is loaded with anti-vehicle missiles. The new missiles in DC are more anti-personnel, having less armor penetration but other effects such as Burn or Concussive instead.

Dangerous Covenants does provide some rules on explosives, though, so if you're in a situation where you can control the terrain and force enemy vehicles into predictable choke-points, wiring up some baradium charges or a bunch of proton packs might allow you to put a dent in the enemy. It'll probably take at least two traps to put down an AT-ST, however, and AT-ATs are right out.

Aah. Makes sense for DC to cover anti-personnel stuff being an EoTE game, wonder if they may expand on the missile tube with the Soldier book...

The same book covers making paramilitary versions of existing vehicles, so not including ways of taking them out (aside from using your own armed vehicle) can't really be defended by it being an Edge product.

Dangerous Covenants adds additional missiles, but none of them have breach, so in essence the bog-standard missile tube is loaded with anti-vehicle missiles. The new missiles in DC are more anti-personnel, having less armor penetration but other effects such as Burn or Concussive instead.

Dangerous Covenants does provide some rules on explosives, though, so if you're in a situation where you can control the terrain and force enemy vehicles into predictable choke-points, wiring up some baradium charges or a bunch of proton packs might allow you to put a dent in the enemy. It'll probably take at least two traps to put down an AT-ST, however, and AT-ATs are right out.

Aah. Makes sense for DC to cover anti-personnel stuff being an EoTE game, wonder if they may expand on the missile tube with the Soldier book...

The same book covers making paramilitary versions of existing vehicles, so not including ways of taking them out (aside from using your own armed vehicle) can't really be defended by it being an Edge product.

Fair enough comment. To be honest, haven't used DC much, myself and PCs have concerned ourselves with the more subtler personnel equipment and vehicles available (well, as subtle as a Blaster Rifles and Heavy Blaster Pistols get anyway).

But, still, I feel the Soldier book may go into this more - Age of Rebellion should where this stuff is covered, unless, as suggested, the missile tube as written is the anti-armour variant.

You're missing that you can still crit with a Missile Tube against a target that has Armor 3 without needing to actually have it's Hull Trauma increase.

I can't remember if it was Sam Stewart or Andy Fisher on our show who clarified that "as long as you exceed the Armor of the target, you can score a crit against it". You do NOT have to deal 30 points of damage with a Missile Tube (with it's Breach 1) on an Armor 3 target to be able to crit. You can score 21 points of damage and as long as you roll enough Advantage, you can crit the target EVEN THOUGH THE HULL TRAUMA HASN'T INCREASED .

So basically, you're crit-hunting Scout Walkers with Missile Tubes, taking out AT-STs (and other similarly armored vehicles, like TIEs) system by system until you hit something explosive (Crit roll 140+)

So basically, you're crit-hunting Scout Walkers with Missile Tubes, taking out AT-STs (and other similarly armored vehicles, like TIEs) system by system until you hit something explosive (Crit roll 140+)

That's a lot of missiles and hoping you get a crit on each one.

So basically, you're crit-hunting Scout Walkers with Missile Tubes, taking out AT-STs (and other similarly armored vehicles, like TIEs) system by system until you hit something explosive (Crit roll 140+)

That's a lot of missiles and hoping you get a crit on each one.

Yep. It's like trying to kill a charging hippopotamus with ten guys throwing shuriken. It might happen, but my money's on everyone getting gutted by the tusks.

I don't think anyone ever said it was smart, just that it could be done.

The AT-ST is a rather rough example though, essentially being the outer space equivalent of a next generation armored vehicle. You can tackle one with a missile tube or flechette launcher, but if you don't back that up with skills, talents, and cunning you might as well be peeing on its leg.

Lighter vehicles are better targets. Airspeeders, landspeeders, that kind of thing.

I don't think anyone ever said it was smart, just that it could be done.

The AT-ST is a rather rough example though, essentially being the outer space equivalent of a next generation armored vehicle. You can tackle one with a missile tube or flechette launcher, but if you don't back that up with skills, talents, and cunning you might as well be peeing on its leg.

Lighter vehicles are better targets. Airspeeders, landspeeders, that kind of thing.

Or Anti-Vehicle Mines

I don't think anyone ever said it was smart, just that it could be done.

The AT-ST is a rather rough example though, essentially being the outer space equivalent of a next generation armored vehicle. You can tackle one with a missile tube or flechette launcher, but if you don't back that up with skills, talents, and cunning you might as well be peeing on its leg.

Lighter vehicles are better targets. Airspeeders, landspeeders, that kind of thing.

Um...

The AT-ST is a "scout walker" so it's along the lines of armored cavalry. Something like a Stryker or even a Bradley is vulnerable to high-end man-portable weaponry.

Any Success at all with a Missile Tube is enough to be eligible of causing a crit to an AT-ST, with a CR of 2 you then need 2 Advantage or a Triumph to actually crit. Not something an untrained professional should be attempting, but not a hard thing for a competent Gunnery user to achieve. I agree it could have been a bit easier, but the only way they could have done that without changing the core mechanics was to increase the Damage or Breach rating of the Missile Tube. Breach 2 would have made the most sense, since then you always do 1 damage to an AT-ST, and in extreme circumstances 2 is possible. It also makes a Crit on an AT-AT possible in extreme circumstances (or with a high xp Heavy).

Where Missile Tubes excel though is in taking down Starfighters. An AT-ST or AT-AT can be climbed and forcefully entered to disable it and take control, Starfighters are much harder to access (unless you have Move!) but a guided Missile Tube will definitely put a dent in one of those.

Where Missile Tubes excel though is in taking down Starfighters. An AT-ST or AT-AT can be climbed and forcefully entered to disable it and take control, Starfighters are much harder to access (unless you have Move!) but a guided Missile Tube will definitely put a dent in one of those.

There are a number of starfighters that have Armor 3. Good luck to the ADA wanna-be with a missile tube.

Switch the missile tube to Damage 2 (planetary) and Range [Close] (planetary) and we might have something actually useful in skilled hands.