...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

Yes, he is.

This has been another episode of Short Answers to Simple Questions. Tune in next time...!

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

PGS is firmly of the opinion any positioning-based effect on mid PS is dead if I recall previous discussions about Guri correctly.

Played Ryad the other day. X7 title, PTL, MK2. The amount of trolling she can do is ridiculus. More often than not, she was with TL, Focus and Evade. Sometimes I ignored the tile and went for 2 speed K-turn. The girl is a joy to fly.

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

This is just super-idiotic nonsense based on a false sense of superiority of a competitive only player.

Get it through your thick skull that a lot of people do not see the 100-point dogfight as the only way to play. Realise that FFG designs for those players as well.

Not everything is designed for the tournament table, nor should it be.

Arrogant whining baby.

The fact remains that it's not worth it in a competitive 100 point game. The only format where it actually matters.

Maybe you wouldn't have to play your special snowflake hugbox formats if FFG did a better job at balancing the game and didn't release broken cards like Palpatine.

I myself play a special snowflake hugbox format and TIE Shuttles will be decent in that. It's just a shame that Palpatine is so good and Push the Limit eliminates the need for having ships that hand off actions by creating nuanceless super ships with no need for synergy between ships.

Bold bit: You don't know what matters and what doesn't.

Guri trash? Someone needs to play Guri!!!

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

This is just super-idiotic nonsense based on a false sense of superiority of a competitive only player.

Get it through your thick skull that a lot of people do not see the 100-point dogfight as the only way to play. Realise that FFG designs for those players as well.

Not everything is designed for the tournament table, nor should it be.

Arrogant whining baby.

The fact remains that it's not worth it in a competitive 100 point game. The only format where it actually matters.

Maybe you wouldn't have to play your special snowflake hugbox formats if FFG did a better job at balancing the game and didn't release broken cards like Palpatine.

I myself play a special snowflake hugbox format and TIE Shuttles will be decent in that. It's just a shame that Palpatine is so good and Push the Limit eliminates the need for having ships that hand off actions by creating nuanceless super ships with no need for synergy between ships.

You realise the competitive scene is maybe 10% of all players right? The vast majority of any miniature game is played casually at home or at clubs.

Jeebus, folks. "I see value in this ship." "I don't." KNIFE FIGHT! When will y'all stop playing lightsabers with your junk on the internet and just play the game?

Check this **** out:

Darth Vader (29)

+ TIE/x1 (0)

+ Engine Upgrade (4)

+ Advanced Targeting Computer (1*)

+ Adaptability (0)

Soontir Fel (27)

+ Royal Guard TIE (0)

+ Push the Limit (3)

+ Stealth Device (3)

+ Autothrusters (2)

Tomax Bren (24)

+ TIE Shuttle (0)

+ Fleet Officer (3)

+ Systems Officer (2)

+ Cool Hand (1)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mark II (1)

Tomax moves, hands out a TL to either ace and a Focus to both, or one for himself, and gets an Evade token for himself (4 actions; Palpatine can't do that). Fel moves and uses PtL potentially for both Boost and Barrel Roll, netting another Focus, possibly having TL + F + F on top of two movement actions, which he cannot do with Palpatine (7 actions total); heck, Fel can even F + E + free F, and have TL + F + F + F + E after Bren! Vader moves and gets any two actions (9 actions total); depending on the matchup Vader can even Adapt down to 8 to let both other pilots strip shields for his ATC. This happens every single turn. And someone is trying to tell me this won't be good?!?!

Check this **** out:

Darth Vader (29)

+ TIE/x1 (0)

+ Engine Upgrade (4)

+ Advanced Targeting Computer (1*)

+ Adaptability (0)

Soontir Fel (27)

+ Royal Guard TIE (0)

+ Push the Limit (3)

+ Stealth Device (3)

+ Autothrusters (2)

Tomax Bren (24)

+ TIE Shuttle (0)

+ Fleet Officer (3)

+ Systems Officer (2)

+ Cool Hand (1)

+ Twin Ion Engine Mark II (1)

Tomax moves, hands out a TL to either ace and a Focus to both, or one for himself, and gets an Evade token for himself (4 actions; Palpatine can't do that). Fel moves and uses PtL potentially for both Boost and Barrel Roll, netting another Focus, possibly having TL + F + F on top of two movement actions, which he cannot do with Palpatine (7 actions total); heck, Fel can even F + E + free F, and have TL + F + F + F + E after Bren! Vader moves and gets any two actions (9 actions total); depending on the matchup Vader can even Adapt down to 8 to let both other pilots strip shields for his ATC. This happens every single turn. And someone is trying to tell me this won't be good?!?!

This is good just like Ryad is good, but it's not as good as a 29 point Palp Shuttle. It also costs more points, and is more limited because of the range 1-2 tether and reliance on actions.

Soontir with Palpatine doesn't really need TL. If you're in a situation where you can spend Palp offensively, you're going to get 3/4 hits on average with a focus and Palp can fill in the last one.

I'd rather just have a Palp Shuttle that was 2 points cheaper for an initiative bid or Juke on ATC Vader.

You could argue forever on TIE shuttle versus PalpShuttle, but they're not similar enough to linearly compare.

Regarding Defenders, I have to disagree. A triple x7 Defender list, whether it be two blocker Deltas with Vessery, or two glaives with Juke and Ryad, or even Maarek and Brath and Deltas are lists that on vassal have for me consistently shredded the three top lists in the meta: Crackswarms, Palp aces and U-boats.

It's difficult to understate how difficult it is to strip 6 hits of an evasion 3 ship that has focus evade every turn.

Yes, Defenders can be difficult to fly, and you have to plan out your maneuvers two or three turns in advance to give yourself good sightlines to k-turn, however it's not a question of 'being a better pilot will close the disadvantage gap from the matchup', it's more that once you get used to how they fly, and how to fully leverage the x7 title the list is absolutely not flying at a disadvantage against really any list, (unlike, say, three interceptors might be against certain matchups). Moreover, there will be matchups which end up very lopsided in your favour.

Most games for me with two Deltas with an ace, like Vessery, Brath, Whisper, Fel or Vader consistently end up with the ace dead at time, and the two deltas having either polished off the rest, or still flying fine.

A well piloted full health Delta takes well over half an hour typically for a kitted out Soontir Fel to destroy. and most of the time the Fel pilot will make a mistake before that. If you can whittle down your opponent's list to their one regen ace, or one ace, or one uboat, or whatever against your two deltas, 56 points of deltas will tend to trash 58 points of anything else.

The /D title is a different story. In the current meta it's too squishy, games with this title you have to fly completely differently than the x7. I have had significant difficulty winning with triple /D lists against two of the current types of lists in the meta, Crackswarms and Uboats. They still tend to demolish ace lists when piloted with skill.

Blended lists of D and x7 work very well too. Vessery on /D and two x7s is fantastic. Vessery is the prime target, you know it, the opponent knows it, so you dance around with him a full two range bands away from the x7s and your opponent has to choose between getting hits in on vessery who is rolling 4 dice in defence, or on the x7s which absorb punishment like sponges.

for Defenders, at the very least, Imperial Veterans changes everything.

well said!

Your thoughts and experiences with the new TIE Defenders mirrors mine exactly. And I've been playing quite a bit with them over the last few months

Triple Defenders WILL change the meta because they provide absolute HARD counters to certain popular lists:

--Triple deltas w/ TIE/d. VERY strong against palp aces. Unfortunately, crack swarm is making a resurgence (to beat u-boats/palp aces, and it does very well at that), and as it turns out, crackswarm is also quite strong against the lower PS of the deltas

--Triple onyx w/ X-7 + hull. VERY strong against swarms and alpha strike lists (seeing a pattern here?). Its only weakness is really high attack ships (like phantoms/ghosts/HLCs). Fortunately, you can't pack very many of those in a list, so its not like its a really bad matchup.

--Triple glaives w/ crack shot + X-7. VERY strong against palp aces and crack swarm and low/mid PS lists. In fact, this seems like a really strong counter to the meta that exists right at this very moment (too bad Imp Vets is not quite out yet ).

So yeah, I rate accuracy of the OP's prediction pretty low. I mean, Imperial Veterans has ALREADY made a significant impact on the 'meta' on VASSAL (where its allowed). You can go ahead and 'ignore' TIE Defenders and their 'competitive' impact in the near future, but if you do, I am pretty certain you won't be winning any major events after Imp Vets hits.

I KNOW many of the best players are working FURIOUSLY right now on building ANSWERS to the threat that TIE Defenders poses on the future meta (I hope in a few cases because of me! ). At least if they expect to have any hope of doing well at US Nationals/Worlds/whatever big event is near you....

You could argue forever on TIE shuttle versus PalpShuttle, but they're not similar enough to linearly compare.

To be sure. Yet OP seems to see fit to argue that

1) Palpatine Shuttle can do something a TIE Shuttle can't, so even though the TIE Shuttle can do things Palpatine can't it's inherently inferior to Palpatine.

2) Palpatine Shuttle is cheaper than a Tomax Bren TIE Shutte, so even though a generic TIE Shuttle is cheaper than Palpatine, Palpatine is inherently superior.

TIE shuttle is a niche role, but particularly for Captain Jonus (who is decent, if not top tier, mostly because of the lack of decent secondary weapon toting ships in the Imperials) you typically don't bother with ordinance and a free shuttle upgrade is fine. It makes Captain Jonus an even better support ship.

Defenders won't topple palp aces and indeed will just add another weapon to their arsenal. The Countess is not bad. Yes, low PS is an issue, I suspect Vess or Maarek are going to be favourites or just go for PS1 generics. But the countess' ability to choose upon moving is a significant advantage and if the enemy does something unexpected the ability to either flip round or not is pretty sweet. Guri is hamstrung by low PS, the Countess is not quite so much, being a little more durable. With PTL, three actions a turn effectively is pretty **** nice.

Triple defender with either title is going to be a thing. I think two or three TIE/Ds plays absolute havoc with any small based low agility list. You can easily end up in a situation where the enemy just can't gain any resemblance of control back over their own ships. When you take a jouster, throw them into debris and ionise them, why, that is a good day. But it's pretty rock-paper-scissors in terms of matchups I think. Certain lists are much less scared of that.

I don't believe trip Defenders will change the meta, but I think that twin or single Defenders will definitely add in a lot of value for the Imps.

I think this is pretty spot on - Imperials are a faction in which Ace's are a "thing". Though I wanna fly three red D's just for the fun of it!

I'm a proponent of casual play, but I'm disappointed with some of the turns this thread has taken. I think most of us are accustomed enough to ParaGoombaSlayers' posts that we know right away that he is speaking from a 100-point dogfight tournament viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with that. He's perfectly entitled to speak from that viewpoint. I'm disappointed that casual players would come into a tournament-oriented thread and start bashing the OP for forgetting about their favorite format.

How would you like it if someone came into a thematic-oriented thread and started saying all the lists were inefficient pieces of junk? Well of course they're inefficient -- they're thematic lists! In the same vein, I think it's wrong to tell a tournament player that their idea is wrong because they pronounced a ship as worthless without some special caveat about it being potentially fun to use in casual play.

Part of this thread has derailed into a casual vs. tournament debate and it really doesn't need to. This is a tournament thread, so there's nothing wrong with statements of opinion about certain ships being dead-on-arrival. Whether it will pan out that way or not, who knows?

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

PGS is firmly of the opinion any positioning-based effect on mid PS is dead if I recall previous discussions about Guri correctly.

Played Ryad the other day. X7 title, PTL, MK2. The amount of trolling she can do is ridiculus. More often than not, she was with TL, Focus and Evade. Sometimes I ignored the tile and went for 2 speed K-turn. The girl is a joy to fly.

I've been proxying her with x7 title, juke, and stealth device and am totally in love. Been flying her with Inquisitor (typical build) and a palp shuttle to soak up the alpha strike. In my experiences it's been most beneficial to hold onto her evade token for juking (not always possible, but palp helps a lot to make it happen), and she hits just as hard, if not harder than Soontir with what I personally feel are better modifications (TL + juke vs. double focus + evade). Say what you want about her on paper, but I agree with above. She's an absolute joy to fly.

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

PGS is firmly of the opinion any positioning-based effect on mid PS is dead if I recall previous discussions about Guri correctly.

Played Ryad the other day. X7 title, PTL, MK2. The amount of trolling she can do is ridiculus. More often than not, she was with TL, Focus and Evade. Sometimes I ignored the tile and went for 2 speed K-turn. The girl is a joy to fly.

I've been proxying her with x7 title, juke, and stealth device and am totally in love. Been flying her with Inquisitor (typical build) and a palp shuttle to soak up the alpha strike. In my experiences it's been most beneficial to hold onto her evade token for juking (not always possible, but palp helps a lot to make it happen), and she hits just as hard, if not harder than Soontir with what I personally feel are better modifications (TL + juke vs. double focus + evade). Say what you want about her on paper, but I agree with above. She's an absolute joy to fly.

I've been running Juke Vessery with PTL ryad. Ryad gets focus/tl/evade every round (if not blocked and moving fast enough), vessery does focus/evade and gets a free TL from ryad + juke (which I forget about a lot still...)

on the bomber side, while I love bren's infinite crackshot (sadly very expensive, probably too expensive), I think it'll mainly end up being Deathfire or bust

the guy is a stupidly cheap conner net dispenser, coming out to 23 with nets and munitions. While he isn't as sexy as deathrain (who is 3 points more expensive...without upgrades), the b-roll can be massive when it comes to orientating the rear pegs especially with the bomber's/punisher's tragic lack of a white 2 turn

if you want to give him something more to do, slap on some IPM. His ability works after any action you take (or before dial reveal), so if you end up not needing to b-roll you can set up a TL or the following turn and keep the enemy on a 1 forward path to doom

IPM conners extras g-chips (because with conners, you'll be closer to the enemy than not) D-fire is 26 points, aka omega Leader. the competition is stiff, but there is serious potential in that little guy

Casual play has no meta. Why is casual play being brought up in a thread discussing the impact of a future release on the meta, when by its nature that is a discussion explicitly not about casual play?

Casual play has no meta. Why is casual play being brought up in a thread discussing the impact of a future release on the meta, when by its nature that is a discussion explicitly not about casual play?

Correct.

so there's nothing wrong with statements of opinion about certain ships being dead-on-arrival.

It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. There are lightyears of distance between having a healthy discussion about what may or may not find a home in a new meta, and being a whiny little ***** starting a "not-a-complaint-thread" thread.

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

Guri + AT has a mediocre jousting efficiency of only around 90%.

Ryad + PtL + x7 + Mk2 is around 107%, assuming she can always get a TL on the ship she is shooting at. Clearing stress is not a problem, but getting arcs is, at least relative to catching stuff like the Inquisitor. But with green K-turns she will be way better at it than Guri.

Ryad is a plug-and-play ship that doesn't break down when the synergies go away like Vessery. She just needs to get her target in arc, which is fundamentally the same problem that Vessery has.

FWIW Vessery + x7/Juke is about [edit] 111% @ 50% ability trigger. There is an argument to be made that Ryad + PtL/x7/Mk2 is actually the better choice.

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

Guri + AT has a mediocre jousting efficiency of only around 90%.

Ryad + PtL + x7 + Mk2 is around 107%, assuming she can always get a TL on the ship she is shooting at. Clearing stress is not a problem, but getting arcs is, at least relative to catching stuff like the Inquisitor. But with green K-turns she will be way better at it than Guri.

Ryad is a plug-and-play ship that doesn't break down when the synergies go away like Vessery. She just needs to get her target in arc, which is fundamentally the same problem that Vessery has.

FWIW Vessery + x7/Juke is about [edit] 111% @ 50% ability trigger. There is an argument to be made that Ryad + PtL/x7/Mk2 is actually the better choice.

I think Ryad's independence and amazing K-turn/Straight flexibility make her a stronger choice than Juke Vessery in a lot of situations. The times where her efficiency will be lower because she can't grab a target lock on her preferred target (against positional aces), it's usually okay. They don't put out enough damage, so she just Target Locks one turn and soaks the damage with Focus/Evade/6 hit points, then can start just Focusing to keep the dial open or throwing the odd Barrel Roll in there to adjust position. The nice thing about her 36 point cost is that it's just a touch more than most aces, so when the game goes to time in a 1:1 match (and it probably will), she grabs the modified win. Against lower PS ships, she'll have her maximum jousting efficiency, and that's when you need it most.

I think her and Soontir are going to be a very strong combo. Ryad is powerhouse that can abuse the hell out of lower PS ships with the easy TL/Focus combo and a difficult to block K-turn, while Fel is in a great place to hunt PS8 aces. Throw in Omega Leader and a 3 point bid and you're ready to rock.

IMO, I do think the problem with Countess Ryad is that her ability is not worth so much at her PS (in that way she's very similar to Guri).

Half of it (the ability to do 2,3, and 5 K-turn will always be useful, but the other half (choosing between straight and K-turn on the fly) is worth little if you don't move after the enemy.

Currently she's likely good against Swarms and Scouts and bad against Palp Aces. In the future it depends which way the meta will swing post wave 9 (toward generics or toward aces)

I think that you've got it backwards. Against aces, Ryad has an essentially unblockable k-turn. In a 1-vs-1 fight, you've got a strong chance to be able to dictate that the ace either trades shots, or nobody shoots. Your token stack will be nearly-or-just-as good and you have more hitpoints, and that's before you start factoring upgrades besides /x7.

People see that you get to make a choice at dial reveal time, and think that PS 5 makes it worthless. Honestly, I think that they could have made her pilot ability be "use this special dial with a bunch of green k-turns on it" (same set of options, but set at the same time as the rest of the dials) and it wouldn't change how I play her at all. Maaaaaybe one game in five against swarms? Maybe?

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

Guri + AT has a mediocre jousting efficiency of only around 90%.

Ryad + PtL + x7 + Mk2 is around 107%, assuming she can always get a TL on the ship she is shooting at. Clearing stress is not a problem, but getting arcs is, at least relative to catching stuff like the Inquisitor. But with green K-turns she will be way better at it than Guri.

Ryad is a plug-and-play ship that doesn't break down when the synergies go away like Vessery. She just needs to get her target in arc, which is fundamentally the same problem that Vessery has.

FWIW Vessery + x7/Juke is about [edit] 111% @ 50% ability trigger. There is an argument to be made that Ryad + PtL/x7/Mk2 is actually the better choice.

I think Ryad's independence and amazing K-turn/Straight flexibility make her a stronger choice than Juke Vessery in a lot of situations. The times where her efficiency will be lower because she can't grab a target lock on her preferred target (against positional aces), it's usually okay. They don't put out enough damage, so she just Target Locks one turn and soaks the damage with Focus/Evade/6 hit points, then can start just Focusing to keep the dial open or throwing the odd Barrel Roll in there to adjust position. The nice thing about her 36 point cost is that it's just a touch more than most aces, so when the game goes to time in a 1:1 match (and it probably will), she grabs the modified win. Against lower PS ships, she'll have her maximum jousting efficiency, and that's when you need it most.

I think her and Soontir are going to be a very strong combo. Ryad is powerhouse that can abuse the hell out of lower PS ships with the easy TL/Focus combo and a difficult to block K-turn, while Fel is in a great place to hunt PS8 aces. Throw in Omega Leader and a 3 point bid and you're ready to rock.

So I've never actually tried Ryad yet, as I find Vassal too cumbersome, but are you suggesting that she wants initiative? If she's in a build with Fel, that seems to me to be an illogical choice.

Or, am I reading something in your post that isn't there? It seems to me that Ryad, like Fel, generally wants to give initiative. At least it seems that way to me what with the way I like to fly Fel.

I doubt Ryad will ever care about initiative. There's not that many PS5 ships put there.

I doubt Ryad will ever care about initiative. There's not that many PS5 ships put there.

Not many that people fly anymore anyways. I'd rather shoot first than have Nera fire torpedoes into me, or the off chance Biggs has me dead to rights... Certainly don't want to be in Fel's Wrath or Etahn's sites.... either way, Ryad is going to be slippery and un-predictable.