All of these triple Defender lists everyone is excited for? Meh.

Countess Ryad? Useless pilot skill, and the Defender already has a white 4k so it being green doesn't really matter. I guess it means PtL is good on her, but PS 5 sucks. Guri's ability is great too but she's PS 5. Nope, in the trash she goes.

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

What you will see a bunch of is this:

31 point standard Inquisitor

OGP with Palpatine

Vessery with X7, VI, Engine Upgrade

Inquisitor is great, Palp is great, Vessery gets freebie TL's and evades, so is free to boost if needed. Both of these ships hit super hard with Palpatine, and they're great defensively with Palpatine.

Let me be clear, this isn't a complaint thread. Once Veterans hits, don't be stunned that Palp Aces still remains top dog and Veterans has changed nothing.

*Imperial* Veterans....

I would expect nothing less than another Ace or help for Palp Aces from *Imperial* Veterans.

Yeah I agree that the triple defender lists may not be up to snuff, but single Defenders or a pair of them will find their way into a lot of lists. The TIE Shuttle fills a role the Empire really didn't have but the state of the Empire Meta didn't need it. It will find its value in Epic, though, without doubt, and the game absolutely needs epic options. Dedicated support really doesn't fit will into the 100 point game unless it has something else going for it, other than the Emperor, who is all the support that the Empire needs in the dogfight. The emperor's value reduces substantially as the squad point pool increases, so the TIE Shuttle becomes more versatile.

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

The main thing about Ryad's ability is not PTL (which is good, but only a bit better than Predator with different weaknesses), but rather that her k-turn can never be blocked by the current board state. It's quite common to realize that you just can't k-turn your defender because there is a higher PS ship sitting right where the 4 straight template would put you. As a result, Ryad's time on target should be appreciably better than other defenders.

You might change your tune about mid range PS and triple Defenders when such a list armed with Tractors and Ion cannons tear through your list...

You might change your tune about mid range PS and triple Defenders when such a list armed with Tractors and Ion cannons tear through your list...

We definitely will read about it. You can take that to the bank.

ace-wing eh?

note, not boost-wing

change is in the air!

I'm not sure if triple defenders will be the best list but I bet we will see them around and I would guess some will do well. Why does it have to "change" the meta? Can't it just add to it? I would imagine that the goal of the expansion was to make these two ships relavent and interesting again. The countess and the new ps 8 bomber (Tomax?) are at the very least interesting and fun and maybe relevant.

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?

Are you trolling me dude?

PGS is firmly of the opinion any positioning-based effect on mid PS is dead if I recall previous discussions about Guri correctly.

Mid range PS ain't useless. If that's what people think about it, people aren't gonna expect it to do something really great.

Works for me.

I thought the argument had been that Triple Defenders would have a strong matchup against U-boat, which would allow counters to average builds to re-emerge, not that triple defenders would be strong vs. Aces.

Leaving my skepticism about the base assumption regarding U-boats vs. Defenders, though, I'm not convinced the stresshog alone would tame Palp-Aces. Palpatine+Auto thrusters makes killing a stressed ace an uphill battle if they do the sensible thing and bug out (This is second hand, but the guy who I talked with has a lot of experience with Panic Attack and variations thereof). I'm not saying more stresshog isn't a threat to aces, but the thing is Palp-Aces Aces has been dealing pretty well with three very dangerous large arcs- I'm unconvinced that one arc that spells danger next turn is going to do much better.

Have been proxying Countess since she was revealed. She is far from useless. In fact, she is my favorite Defender, passing even Vessery. Mid-PS keeps her from being absolutely broken. She dominates anything lower PS than her. The ability to constantly k-turn and have focus, TL, and evade when running her with PTL and x7 is something that even higher PS ships cannot keep up with. She will be a staple Defender in many lists and is an amazing TL buddy for Vessery. While Vessery is probably the best coming out of IV, I can't say that Ryad is very far behind. She almost always has the three actions mentioned previously. Her action economy is up there with the Inquisitor when going at speed 3 or higher. I cannot see how anyone who has actually played her can dismiss her as useless.

I agree that the Bombers still seem meh, but Defenders will be legit virtually across the board thanks to those titles.

Can't see Vessery dodging much. PalpAce's power comes from combining high durability when shot at with barely being shot at. Vessery only has the first.

Actually, I'm expecting Vessery with D title and Tractor beam to be very popular as well, as it messes up small ships really well. I've been doing quite well so far with Inq (standard loadout), OGP (Palp and Baffle) and Vessery (VI, Tractor Beam, D title, TIE mk 2)

Have been proxying Countess since she was revealed. She is far from useless. In fact, she is my favorite Defender, passing even Vessery. Mid-PS keeps her from being absolutely broken. She dominates anything lower PS than her. The ability to constantly k-turn and have focus, TL, and evade when running her with PTL and x7 is something that even higher PS ships cannot keep up with. She will be a staple Defender in many lists and is an amazing TL buddy for Vessery. While Vessery is probably the best coming out of IV, I can't say that Ryad is very far behind. She almost always has the three actions mentioned previously. Her action economy is up there with the Inquisitor when going at speed 3 or higher. I cannot see how anyone who has actually played her can dismiss her as useless.

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

More often than I see xizor.....

Have been proxying Countess since she was revealed. She is far from useless. In fact, she is my favorite Defender, passing even Vessery. Mid-PS keeps her from being absolutely broken. She dominates anything lower PS than her. The ability to constantly k-turn and have focus, TL, and evade when running her with PTL and x7 is something that even higher PS ships cannot keep up with. She will be a staple Defender in many lists and is an amazing TL buddy for Vessery. While Vessery is probably the best coming out of IV, I can't say that Ryad is very far behind. She almost always has the three actions mentioned previously. Her action economy is up there with the Inquisitor when going at speed 3 or higher. I cannot see how anyone who has actually played her can dismiss her as useless.

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

First is squad flexibility. Not just in building your squad, but in taking actions with your squad. Having Vessery means your squad is always wanting to target lock something. However, sometimes this is not the best option. You might be sacrificing survivability to set up Vessery, or the other option is a ship might take an action to stay alive, but this makes Vessery hit softer. Ryad can get her own target locks, thank you very much.

Second, k-turn flexibility. Two-five GREEN K-TURNS. Stress is insignificant, especially if you put Mk. II engines on her. This flexibility means she decimates anything lower PS than her. She can keep close or far away depending on what she needs. That 4K would be blocked? No problem! Let's make it a 5k!

Third is a strong end-game piece. Vessery loses a lot of offense if he is your last ship on the board. He needs friends to be effective. Ryad is an amazing closer. She is much more consistent in the end game due to her not needing help.

The Guri comparison is not a great comparison to make. First, the Starviper as a ship has some problems. Mainly, it's over-costed. Second, Guri's PS is not great for her ability because she can't know if she is going to be range one if she is against a higher PS opponent. There is a good chance her ability won't trigger because the opponent stays out of range one. Ryad's ability breaks the normal flow of combat. The constant k-turning is difficult for arc-dodgers to keep up with. Her ability still works well against higher PS ships. Even if you guess wrong and end up facing the wrong way, you have the health and tokens to weather the storm. Then you can just turn right around next time and have them in your sights.

Try her for yourself. The mid-PS is fine. She destroys anything lower than her (crackswarms, Scouts, high PS generics). Anything, higher PS or not, that gets in a jousting match with her will be at a severe disadvantage. Have you tried her yourself?

PGS, I think you're maybe half right. I think a lot of the new builds are very powerful, but they don't fly like the the time-tested Imperial core ships at all. I personally think TIE/Ds are astoundingly good, but the current Scout meta is not at all good for them, so it's possible that they won't become a force until some time later.

Scouts are weird. I felt like we were reaching a critical mass of solid low HP/high maneuverability counters, when Scouts showed up and we're like "nope, you gotta deal with massive damage now", so all these alternative options were sort of scared back into the woodwork until people figure out Scout counters a little better.

All of these triple Defender lists everyone is excited for? Meh.

Countess Ryad? Useless pilot skill, and the Defender already has a white 4k so it being green doesn't really matter. I guess it means PtL is good on her, but PS 5 sucks. Guri's ability is great too but she's PS 5. Nope, in the trash she goes.

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

What you will see a bunch of is this:

31 point standard Inquisitor

OGP with Palpatine

Vessery with X7, VI, Engine Upgrade

Inquisitor is great, Palp is great, Vessery gets freebie TL's and evades, so is free to boost if needed. Both of these ships hit super hard with Palpatine, and they're great defensively with Palpatine.

Let me be clear, this isn't a complaint thread. Once Veterans hits, don't be stunned that Palp Aces still remains top dog and Veterans has changed nothing.

My current 9-1 record with my triple defenders list would disagree that they're "meh". There's definitely good combos with vessery and other ace pilots as well, but triple defenders can definitely be a strong list. And ryad's ability has been amazing.

Have been proxying Countess since she was revealed. She is far from useless. In fact, she is my favorite Defender, passing even Vessery. Mid-PS keeps her from being absolutely broken. She dominates anything lower PS than her. The ability to constantly k-turn and have focus, TL, and evade when running her with PTL and x7 is something that even higher PS ships cannot keep up with. She will be a staple Defender in many lists and is an amazing TL buddy for Vessery. While Vessery is probably the best coming out of IV, I can't say that Ryad is very far behind. She almost always has the three actions mentioned previously. Her action economy is up there with the Inquisitor when going at speed 3 or higher. I cannot see how anyone who has actually played her can dismiss her as useless.

Vessery can do that same combo at a higher PS, and with no stress involved. If Vessery is stressed he still can do the free evade and TL. Ryad gets bumped ir stressed you only get the free evade.

So again, what is so special about Ryad? What is so great about a green K-Turn when I can do a white one /while stressed/ and still get a free TL and evade token with Vessery and VI for 1 point less than Ryad with PtL?

I get that having a 2k is good, but it's not worth the garbage pilot skill. Vessery with VI and an initiative bid can move last after a ton of things.

Ask yourself, how often do you see Guri?

Vessery gets a free TL IF you have one from someone else. So he pairs best with OL or a TIE Advanced that won't be spending it's TL. With someone like the inquisitor, you have to shoot first, have the same target in arc that round, and if inquis gets blocked and can't TL that round, no TL for vessery either, same as ryad if she gets blocked. Sure you can TL with palp as well (as long as he survives). Also, Ryad's a better finisher than Vessery. If vessery's the last ship left, no more free target locks for him, just focus/evade or evade/TL, and his more predictable with his 4k. Ryad as the finisher can still get all 3 actions and has 4 different k-turn speeds to choose from.

As for guri, I fly her quite a bit myself, and win far more than I lose with her (since wave 8, in 2 different lists in which the highest pilot skills are 5-6).

...Countess Ryad has a useless ability..?Are you trolling me dude?

PGS is firmly of the opinion any positioning-based effect on mid PS is dead if I recall previous discussions about Guri correctly.

Mid range PS ain't useless. If that's what people think about it, people aren't gonna expect it to do something really great.

Works for me.

All of these triple Defender lists everyone is excited for? Meh.

Countess Ryad? Useless pilot skill, and the Defender already has a white 4k so it being green doesn't really matter. I guess it means PtL is good on her, but PS 5 sucks. Guri's ability is great too but she's PS 5. Nope, in the trash she goes.

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

What you will see a bunch of is this:

31 point standard Inquisitor

OGP with Palpatine

Vessery with X7, VI, Engine Upgrade

Inquisitor is great, Palp is great, Vessery gets freebie TL's and evades, so is free to boost if needed. Both of these ships hit super hard with Palpatine, and they're great defensively with Palpatine.

Let me be clear, this isn't a complaint thread. Once Veterans hits, don't be stunned that Palp Aces still remains top dog and Veterans has changed nothing.

Every time you post something, this is what is playing in my head:

Thanks again for more quality content.

All of these triple Defender lists everyone is excited for? Meh.

Countess Ryad? Useless pilot skill, and the Defender already has a white 4k so it being green doesn't really matter. I guess it means PtL is good on her, but PS 5 sucks. Guri's ability is great too but she's PS 5. Nope, in the trash she goes.

TIE Shuttles? Why would you fly a support craft based around systems officer and fleet officer when you could use Palpatine? Super trash.

What you will see a bunch of is this:

31 point standard Inquisitor

OGP with Palpatine

Vessery with X7, VI, Engine Upgrade

Inquisitor is great, Palp is great, Vessery gets freebie TL's and evades, so is free to boost if needed. Both of these ships hit super hard with Palpatine, and they're great defensively with Palpatine.

Let me be clear, this isn't a complaint thread. Once Veterans hits, don't be stunned that Palp Aces still remains top dog and Veterans has changed nothing.

Every time you post something, this is what is playing in my head:

Thanks again for more quality content.

You guys sit down when you crap? Amateurs.

Do I think Vets will change the Imperial style of high maneuver, high skill play? No. I do think it will give us some interesting new wrinkles that may frustrate other factions. The Defender has suffered for a long time by being too high priced. Well, with the new titles you get some more efficiency from a very good ship. No other Imperial small base ship has the combination of health, agility, and firepower that a Defender can put up- the only thing bringing them down was the extreme point cost. Even the overly predictable dial could have been overcome if the cost for the ships was lowered. Now that it is, we should see some new pairings of classic Imp Aces with a ship that can really slug it out with large based ships.

I don't believe trip Defenders will change the meta, but I think that twin or single Defenders will definitely add in a lot of value for the Imps.

As for the bomber title, I'm of the opinion that it will be mostly an Epic ship. While support ships in standard games are alright, they shine in Epic. A couple of TIE Shuttles can be a cheap boost to an Imperial Epic squadron, as they can take quite a bit of damage and most people view Bombers as low-priority targets.