Ok, so I picked up Armada as soon as it dropped because it just looked so awesome. I was glad to see the game turned out to be good as well. But now the community as a whole knows the rules, we're several waves in and it looks like FFG isn't planning on ditching the game any time soon. Great! But I feel it's time to ask....am I the only one who thinks it's time to move away from Squadrons being paid for out of the Fleet cost?

I know when the game first released a lot of people were confused if the 1/3rd was a separate point value or not, and FFG was quick to clear it up. The Squadrons still count towards the total of the fleet, you're just limited to that amount...but that was back when we had one squadron for each faction, both with a low-ish point cost and almost no ships or options. Now, we have a variety of ships with a range of costs. We have multiple squadrons for each faction *and* the Scum and Villainy expansion that adds even more Squadrons and a range of points and abilities and options.....but how often do you see people get to really explore them?

I feel like since the game has expanded and we're seeing larger ships and more tempting upgrades it's slowly pushing Squadrons towards being less useful.

Thoughts? Opinions? Raging hate mail against me?

What do you mean about "but how often do you see people get to really explore them?"

Because my initial answer to that is all the **** time.

Even within the Archtype tropes as "Rhymerball", there is vast variations and flavours...

And I doubt we'll see ships larger than the ISD, and taking 1-2 ISDs certainly does not proclude you from taking Squadrons...

I do feel that, the initial kneejerk reaction I have right now, is to decry this as someone who just "wants more"... Doesn't matter what it is, they want more, and they can't have it.

So I apologise if I am overly hostile.

You know how XI7s are a super useful upgrade to make sure most damage stays on a single hull zone? That's what squadrons do. They focus down a hull zone until the ship blows up. The only thing holding the squadron game back in my opinion were maneuverable ships that don't need navigate commands and can just spam squadron, and some sort of reroll. Wave 3 has both these things. If anything it will be more dangerous than ever not to have at least a smattering of squadrons.

It is very easy for some squadron lists to really punish capital builds. I mean, consider that most ships throw a blue die against all fighters when attacking them. That's usually a maximum of one damage, but every fighter can put a combined amount of damage on a single capital ship arc exceeding some ships' battery counts, and with more attacks than the defense tokens can asborb.

In other words, there's an advantage to having small floating turrets performing many small attacks to overwhelm a capital ship's defenses. And the capital ships can't just swat them out of space easily, either.

Beyond this universal thing about fighters, there are two combinations that come to mind that make it really hard to beat squadrons:

Yavaris + B-Wings: A popular combination with one of my friends, who abuses this combination as far as it can go to do LOTS of damage. Combining tokens with Adar Tallon and a token and you can allow B-Wings to perform FOUR seperate attacks over the course of the turn. It's nasty throwing the best anti-capital battery on a fighter that many times, with bomber.

Rhymerballs: Major Rhymer clustered around either TIE Bombers (for cheap) or Firesprays (For rogue + Improved shooting). Since all of these fighters attack at medium range instead of close they can hit a wide range of targets, even if they are "only" in medium range. Throw in Intel, and you can ignore fighters that try to intercept you and just pummel capital ships all day, unless Rhymer himself bites it.

There was thought in Wave 1 if fighters were really worth it, but I think the Wave 2 options still make fighters a very capable force. In fact if you see an Imperial List out there, if it's running more than four fighters, it is almost certainly a Rhymerball.

Oh no, you're right to do so in some regards. I did feel like Armada was going to be featuring a *lot* of squadrons swarming around but from what I see personally or watching games online or reading battle reports it's usually two or three ships loaded to bear with little regard for Squadrons, usually one or two as afterthoughts when the more juicy options run out. And add in the smaller ships that are arriving taking up the space in the list for those squadrons and I worry that one of the major factors that, to me, makes the game feel like Star Wars will get pushed out by better options.

I should be clear here. I am open to the fact that I could just be wrong as hell and everyone else is happy with how it is. I'm no where near saying I dislike the game. I still love it. This is more of *musing on the subject* than any hard line in the sand stance demanding change.

EDIT: My comment was a response to Drasnighta, I just don't type fast and other people responded quickly. :-)

The flipside to it is this, to me:


"If you are not going to include Squadrons in the Fleet Cost... What is your alternative?"

Say, 400pts of Ships and Upgrades + 100 points of Squadrons?

That removes a player's ability to choose to not take squadrons. They must or they are at a 100pt Disadvantage.

At least now, by forgoing your 134 points of Squadrons, you are able to take 134 points of Ships to compensate... And Vice Versa...

...

Am I missing something? Please, tell me, because its really confusing me...

Oh no, you're right to do so in some regards. I did feel like Armada was going to be featuring a *lot* of squadrons swarming around but from what I see personally or watching games online or reading battle reports it's usually two or three ships loaded to bear with little regard for Squadrons, usually one or two as afterthoughts when the more juicy options run out. And add in the smaller ships that are arriving taking up the space in the list for those squadrons and I worry that one of the major factors that, to me, makes the game feel like Star Wars will get pushed out by better options.

I should be clear here. I am open to the fact that I could just be wrong as hell and everyone else is happy with how it is. I'm no where near saying I dislike the game. I still love it. This is more of *musing on the subject* than any hard line in the sand stance demanding change.

The focus on Armada is the Ships. Where it should be. Squadrons are a Suppliment. Where they should be... I feel you're totally watching the wrong games online

Squadrons are an effective tool. Some ways, they're better than a ship. Some times, a ship is better... The fact that its a delicate balance choice made by a Player, means it is good.

Norsehound hit the big two squadron builds that work very well. The long and sort is while Squadrons can be harder to use, they can be utterly devastating in the hands of a good player. If you have a look at Shmitty's regionals data, you'll see we're gravitating towards more Squadrons, not less. Wave 3 flotillas are going to solidify that trend. Speaking from a wave 1 perspective you would have been absolutely right. Wave 2's scope and a few choice upgrades (I'm probably the #1 advocate for Independence) made Squadrons too dangerous to ignore.

The flipside to it is this, to me:

"If you are not going to include Squadrons in the Fleet Cost... What is your alternative?"

Say, 400pts of Ships and Upgrades + 100 points of Squadrons?

That removes a player's ability to choose to not take squadrons. They must or they are at a 100pt Disadvantage.

At least now, by forgoing your 134 points of Squadrons, you are able to take 134 points of Ships to compensate... And Vice Versa...

...

Am I missing something? Please, tell me, because its really confusing me...

Actually that's a very good point. The idea that not taking squadrons would be a disadvantage is very thematic, and when I picture Star Wars I see them as clouds buzzing everywhere, with whoever runs out first being heavily punished for it. But the game is set up in such a way that taking them or not is a viable choice and maybe that just rubs me the wrong way.

Oh hell...I'm complaining that the game is balanced.

This may also come from years of playing Warmachine, and the inclusion of Warjack Points in 2nd edition that made using them "free" to some extent so they would continue to stick around and be awesome.

I think the 400 points is the right level at present. Forces some tough choices in list construction and keeps the game length manageable for tournaments and friendlies at the local store. But of course there's nothing stopping you playing with more!!

And certainly the current regionals and the build up to wave 3 suggests squadrons are becoming more and more prevalent.

400 points + 100 points of squadrons would certainly make the game feel more cinematic, but would make lists become more focussed on providing the exact, most optimum configuration of squadrons to take. It would reduce the variation in lists considerably.

Flotillae should give lists that only want to take a small number of squads a nice boost indeed... you'll finally be able to load ships up with upgrades and give them commands other than squad, while also maintaining an effective squadron contingent

This is another reason I like larger battles. If you're playing 600 pts its pretty easy to build a carrier fleet that is more than just ships throwing squadron commands. The higher limit on fighters gives you more room to build a fighter force to your taste. Some people will still take all ace lists and some will run no squads but for those of us in between it adds flexibility.

I wish the standard game size was 500 points, with a minimum of 100 points (167 maximum) had to be spent on squadrons. This lets you field a good number of capital ships and enough squadrons to make the game feel like a fleet battle instead of a skirmish.

Wave 3 will definitely see squadrons becoming a much more common sight, in frequency and in number. Flotillas give you cheap squadron commands, which will lessen the need for Rogues, allowing you to run more of the cheaper non-Rogue squadrons.

And they allow Bomber Command Center. I'm a bit disappointed in bomber black dice right now, because they lack any type of reroll, whereas OE is such a precious, sweet upgrade for black dice toting ships. It's just so depressing when Ywings or TIE bombers whiff at a crucial moment....BCC will make that much less common. Bomber list usage is going to increase drastically.

And then as a reaction the space superiority list is going to be more important to counter the bombers. So there will be more of those around.

And then you have X-wing spam which does both things.

There is nothing to argue about when the understanding of the meta or fundementals isn't there.

Squadrons are heavily played and valid choice. They will only increase in popularity with Wave, it will break open Xwing bombers and make previous archtypes (rebel heros, rhymerballs, fireballs) stronger.

If you think Rhymer balls are good now, just wait for a Goz with Bomber commander boosting it even harder.

I used to run a lot of 4+ squadron lists but have since moved away from them as if you have say 5 B-wing's if you don't also have Independence you will lose vs a Rhymer ball list. (Other lists not withstanding)

I do want to try a B-wing swarm again with Toryn + Bomber command so I can reroll both blue and Black vs a ship or at least a blue vs other squads.

Only downside is still having a good ship line backing a heavy bomber fleet without resorting to Ackbar Whales for how good they are all round.

Squadrons are awesome but I find it's becoming harder to build competitive lists with them for Rebel's outside of Independence/Yavaris + Rieekan.

I would say the fighter game is well balanced, I've never played a game where there were no fighters. But people have different approaches, the present imp list I play is supported by howl runner and 5 ties around instigator and a second raider ( with or without expanded hanger). When I play my rebel fleets I tend to run a GP bomber list of xwings, ywings, jan and a pair of a wings.

From what I know if you play your own reasonable mix of fighters you will tend to reduce the impact of any enemy fighter wing on your ships and have to then engage in a fighter vs fighter sub game. If you don't play fighters you will likely get overwhelmed by any GP or bomber wings you come across.

In my view this is as low as you can go:

Fast imp fleet ( all speed 4 equivalent and no large bases) 2 ties with instigator.

Fast rebel ( all speed 4 equivalent, no large bases) 4 awings and MM as leader)

Heavy ship lists ( ids, vsd, MC80, assault frigates) really need at least 6 fighter stands.

Instigator with OE is a real power house for control of enemy bomber balls, it keeps them honest ( separated and backed off) so you can drop very low on your numbers of ties. To play it offensively you plow it into the Intel ship ( trying for a double arc on some key ships. Use the ties to engage the key threats to instigate. If played right you should get a shot of with your ties then get to activate instigator and double arch a few fighters with this and the ties you should be able to nooble a couple of bombers or fire sprays before moving off.

This forced backing off, spreading out and offensive move should stop a bomber ball smashing your ships.

Yeah, I've never seen any other player use the same Fireball that I use. Not really even all that close. Regular Bomber Rhymerballs tend to be a bit more similar, but I still see a pretty diverse set of how many total points they run, how many escorts they use, and what they do for Intel.

This is all just on the Imperial side. I don't play rebels, but I've gone up against all manner of opposing squadrons from them.

And many people run all ship lists. Which is great, too.

The flipside to it is this, to me:

"If you are not going to include Squadrons in the Fleet Cost... What is your alternative?"

Say, 400pts of Ships and Upgrades + 100 points of Squadrons?

That removes a player's ability to choose to not take squadrons. They must or they are at a 100pt Disadvantage.

At least now, by forgoing your 134 points of Squadrons, you are able to take 134 points of Ships to compensate... And Vice Versa...

...

Am I missing something? Please, tell me, because its really confusing me...

What he said. I wouldn't mind seeing the fleet budget go up. Someone mentioned 500, I think that's a bit high. I'd like to see 420-450 for the fleet total which would make squadrons top out at 140-150.

I think fighters are way over priced, try playing a game or two with your non named fighters at 1/4 the points cost and all those fighters on the table start to feel and look like a star wars battle.

Anecdote time:

Top 2 at West Virginia Regionals had >100 points of fighters, each. I am pretty sure #3 and #4 had 100+ points as well.

I think fighters are way over priced, try playing a game or two with your non named fighters at 1/4 the points cost and all those fighters on the table start to feel and look like a star wars battle.

Those don't look like Star Wars battles to me...

Ergo, it must be a matter of perspective, and not fact.

I'm quite happy with the mix at 400.

Ohhh how I wish to reenact return of the Jedi.........

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2or4js