No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

I still play X Wing vs TIE Fighter now, and have an absolute blast. Some of the most fun you can have with your pants on.

...

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

DR4CO is certainly right there.

Off the top of my head I believe TIE Fighter and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight are two of the highest rated games EVER. The rest of the X-Wing series isn't too bad either (I've played all but TIE Fighter!) and the later Jedi Knight games are pretty good too.

Now when you move past those golden gems you do start seeing more trash as people just starting slapping Star Wars into other game engines which just gives you a reskinned game that doesn't always feel like StarWars. Keep going and you run into even more money grabs and a host of other issues keeping the games from being great. For all of their amazing graphics I'll tell you the games of today really aren't all that great when held up against their forefathers. Game developers have so much power at their disposal these days that they don't seem to need to put out revolutionary games.

No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

I was gaming well before that. My taste in games is solid; I think most people that loved those games because they were Star Wars affiliated. You can disagree all you want but there's a reason none of these games were huge successes. Battlefront was the first to get a bigger following though I honestly haven't played it yet (again, most Star Wars video games are crap so I hesitate to drop the money on it).

...

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

DR4CO is certainly right there.

Off the top of my head I believe TIE Fighter and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight are two of the highest rated games EVER. The rest of the X-Wing series isn't too bad either (I've played all but TIE Fighter!) and the later Jedi Knight games are pretty good too.

Now when you move past those golden gems you do start seeing more trash as people just starting slapping Star Wars into other game engines which just gives you a reskinned game that doesn't always feel like StarWars. Keep going and you run into even more money grabs and a host of other issues keeping the games from being great. For all of their amazing graphics I'll tell you the games of today really aren't all that great when held up against their forefathers. Game developers have so much power at their disposal these days that they don't seem to need to put out revolutionary games.

Oh yeah? Find it listed here:

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/all/pc?sort=desc

#62. That's where it is, below 61 other great games that I would rather spend my time playing.

No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

I was gaming well before that. My taste in games is solid; I think most people that loved those games because they were Star Wars affiliated. You can disagree all you want but there's a reason none of these games were huge successes. Battlefront was the first to get a bigger following though I honestly haven't played it yet (again, most Star Wars video games are crap so I hesitate to drop the money on it).

None of them were... what are you even smoking!?

Knights of the Old Republic won 40 game of the year awards and sold over 1 million copies. It and TIE Fighter still routinely make it onto lists of the greatest video games ever, more than 15 and 20 years since they were each released. All four entries in the Dark Forces series were wild successes. TIE Fighter's siblings X-wing and X-wing Alliance are only a couple steps behind it. Rogue Squadron and Rogue Leader also. All of these games get routinely mentioned as classics.

How in the Seven Hells does that not qualify as "huge successes"?

Oh yeah? Find it listed here:

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/all/pc?sort=desc

#62. That's where it is, below 61 other great games that I would rather spend my time playing.

Oh yeah? Find it listed here:

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/all/pc?sort=desc

#62. That's where it is, below 61 other great games that I would rather spend my time playing.

So being #62 out of how every many tens of thousands of video games that have been released over the past 30 years makes it a game unworthy of your time? Your logic is flawed, sir.

To illustrate: http://www.metacritic.com/browse/movies/score/metascore/all/filtered?sort=desc

Note that #76 on this list is Saving Private Ryan. #45 is A New Hope. By your standards, I suppose I should avoid ever watching such terrible films?

THERE WERE BETTER FILMS TO WATCH!

Oh yeah? Find it listed here:

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/all/pc?sort=desc

#62. That's where it is, below 61 other great games that I would rather spend my time playing.

This is hilarious.

For reference, Jedi Knight is ranked above Portal, Deus Ex, Dark Souls 1, 2, and 3, Baldur's Gate 2, Thief 2...

...

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Then you either weren't gaming in the 90s and early 00s, or have the worst taste in gaming I have ever seen.

DR4CO is certainly right there.

Off the top of my head I believe TIE Fighter and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight are two of the highest rated games EVER. The rest of the X-Wing series isn't too bad either (I've played all but TIE Fighter!) and the later Jedi Knight games are pretty good too.

Now when you move past those golden gems you do start seeing more trash as people just starting slapping Star Wars into other game engines which just gives you a reskinned game that doesn't always feel like StarWars. Keep going and you run into even more money grabs and a host of other issues keeping the games from being great. For all of their amazing graphics I'll tell you the games of today really aren't all that great when held up against their forefathers. Game developers have so much power at their disposal these days that they don't seem to need to put out revolutionary games.

Oh yeah? Find it listed here:

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/all/pc?sort=desc

#62. That's where it is, below 61 other great games that I would rather spend my time playing.

...one of which is Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, at #26. So according to your logic, there are only 25 games in the entire world that are better than a Star Wars game, which hardly sounds like utter garbage to me. Of course, this all fails to take into consideration such factors as release date (games released long before metacritic was launched are less likely to have many, if any, critic reviews), genre (if one doesn't like shooters, many of those games fall off the list), public preference (Dark Forces II has a higher user rating than some of the games in the top 10!), and even simple ties in critic scoring (technically, #45-#78 all tie for 45th place).

Look, if you want to base which games you play off of which games critics have rated highly, that's your business. But don't try to claim that games you haven't played or that critics haven't reviewed must automatically be trash in some objective sense (you know, unless you're talking about literally finding a copy of the game's CD at a junkyard, or something).

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to hop in my Z-95 and join the rest of Bandit Squadron in ion pulsing some experimental TIEs!

I was gaming well before that. My taste in games is solid; I think most people that loved those games because they were Star Wars affiliated. You can disagree all you want but there's a reason none of these games were huge successes. Battlefront was the first to get a bigger following though I honestly haven't played it yet (again, most Star Wars video games are crap so I hesitate to drop the money on it).

Look, your taste is your own, but: if you played X-Wing/TIE Fighter/XvT/Alliance, Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/Jedi Knight II/Jedi Academy, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, the various side scrollers, others I'm forgetting and you thought none of them were good, well. Your taste isn't solid, it's idiosyncratic. Which is fine, but when you start projecting on to other people ("I didn't like them therefore no one liked them and they fooled themselves because star wars"), well. You should stop doing that.

Also, the thing where you've been gaming for 20 or 30 years and games these days don't compare and graphics and etc? That's called nostalgia. It's got nothing to do with actual merit and everything to do with you.

Metacritic rankings are silly anyway. Virtually every game in the top few hundred is worth playing, because there are a lot of really **** good games out there. "Oh no, this game is only an 88 instead of a 92", who cares when it's just an aggregate of a bunch of reviews that all lean really positively?

Ummm, guys.... isn't this a miniatures forum?

Ummm...how can the first wave since, what, wave *3*, that is all drawn ENTIRELY from ships seen on-screen being seen as "obscure"??

I mean, every ship in wave 9 was seen in a Star Wars movie or TV show - nothing here is 'expanded universe' at all, for once.

To be fair, a children's cartoon on the Disney Channel is really hardly any more "on screen" than stuff from comic books or video games. It's just as EU as anything from the EU ever was.

what about the star wars franchise do you consider to not be a children's cartoon?

I know I would put x wing, knights of the old republic, and Jedi knight 2 on a list of my favorite games ever. Knights of the old republic in particular was just fantastic. Did the fact that they were Star Wars bias my opinion of them? Probably, and I'm ok with that, since I like Star Wars.

There is no doubt a lot of bad or average games have been made using the Star Wars IP, but that in no way detracts for me the fun I had playing the good ones, and there most certainly have been some good ones.

I am a little sad that battlefront from EA recently I did not like though, I was really pumped up about it but just didn't like it at all. I was actually a little surprised to hear it's popular and has sold well.

X wing (the miniatures game) appeals to me more than if it was just random sci fi ships, and again I'm ok with that.

Ummm, guys.... isn't this a miniatures forum?

It is. We're just taking a small detour to deal with this unashamed blasphemy. Your regularly scheduled discussion will resume shortly.

No, and stop whining about that **** Gunboat. Bad ship idea from a bad game.

Dude what? I don't really like the Gunboat, not saying that i would mind it in the game, but saying TIE-Fighter was a bad game? I think video game history disagrees with you.

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Now you have me genuinly curious, what are games you like?

Ummm, guys.... isn't this a miniatures forum?

It is. We're just taking a small detour to deal with this unashamed blasphemy. Your regularly scheduled discussion will resume shortly.

Maybe it will but when discussion "obscure" sources the video games, especially the X-Wing series, provides plenty of meaningful reference to certain people. To others you could have run into Star Wars Galaxies and some of the newer games which I believe gave us the Decimator.

If you're looking at an obscure source I've taken a look at my old micro machines collector's set and the only ship in it missing from X-Wing is the Stinger. It had provided models for IG-88's ship as well as the Hound's Tooth, Star Viper, and Outrider.

I was gaming well before that. My taste in games is solid; I think most people that loved those games because they were Star Wars affiliated. You can disagree all you want but there's a reason none of these games were huge successes. Battlefront was the first to get a bigger following though I honestly haven't played it yet (again, most Star Wars video games are crap so I hesitate to drop the money on it).

Look, your taste is your own, but: if you played X-Wing/TIE Fighter/XvT/Alliance, Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/Jedi Knight II/Jedi Academy, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, the various side scrollers, others I'm forgetting and you thought none of them were good, well. Your taste isn't solid, it's idiosyncratic. Which is fine, but when you start projecting on to other people ("I didn't like them therefore no one liked them and they fooled themselves because star wars"), well. You should stop doing that.

Also, the thing where you've been gaming for 20 or 30 years and games these days don't compare and graphics and etc? That's called nostalgia. It's got nothing to do with actual merit and everything to do with you.

You're right, I don't carry any nostalgia for totally forgettable games. I suspect these games are much like anything cult following; people like it despite their serious flaws. Those games don't compare because they are uninteresting and do not hook me. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Star Wars, but I bet most people love it much like they loved Battletoads (which I ironically loved as a kid but it doesn't make it any less than a terrible game).

I was gaming well before that. My taste in games is solid; I think most people that loved those games because they were Star Wars affiliated. You can disagree all you want but there's a reason none of these games were huge successes. Battlefront was the first to get a bigger following though I honestly haven't played it yet (again, most Star Wars video games are crap so I hesitate to drop the money on it).

Look, your taste is your own, but: if you played X-Wing/TIE Fighter/XvT/Alliance, Dark Forces/Jedi Knight/Jedi Knight II/Jedi Academy, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, the various side scrollers, others I'm forgetting and you thought none of them were good, well. Your taste isn't solid, it's idiosyncratic. Which is fine, but when you start projecting on to other people ("I didn't like them therefore no one liked them and they fooled themselves because star wars"), well. You should stop doing that.

Also, the thing where you've been gaming for 20 or 30 years and games these days don't compare and graphics and etc? That's called nostalgia. It's got nothing to do with actual merit and everything to do with you.

You're right, I don't carry any nostalgia for totally forgettable games. I suspect these games are much like anything cult following; people like it despite their serious flaws. Those games don't compare because they are uninteresting and do not hook me. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Star Wars, but I bet most people love it much like they loved Battletoads (which I ironically loved as a kid but it doesn't make it any less than a terrible game).

Your entire argument seems to be, "I didn't like the games, so therefore they were terrible in an objective sense and anyone who thinks they were good must have brainwashed themselves." You keep mentioning "serious flaws" and how "uninteresting" the games are, yet you never bring up specifics, and you ignore all evidence to the contrary! I have to second the question Admiral Deathrain raised: what do you consider a good game? And please be specific, not simply, "games that aren't bad," or, "anything but a Star Wars game," or some other attempt to dodge the question.

As a further example to show you the sheer lunacy of your argument, I'll share that the Grand Theft Auto series doesn't appeal to me. Does this make it a totally forgettable series? Do the games simply have cult followings who like them despite serious flaws? Do people just ignore how terrible they are for the sake of nostalgia? Or could it be that they are solid games that just don't overlap much with my personal interests?

I have never played a good Star Wars video game. They might be good as Star Wars games are concerned but not overall.

Star Wars Games:

X-Wing series

Dark Forces series

Jedi Knight series

Knights of the old Republic

Galaxies

The Old Republic

And so on and so forth.

Super Star Wars, Super Empire Strikes Back, Super Return Of The Jedi on SNES. Brilliant games for their time.

A lot of people have fond memories of Rogue Squadron and Rogue Squadron II on N64 and PC as well.

Going further back, the original 1983 Star Wars coin-op with the X-Wing "cabin" was fun as well.

There've been a couple of ropey Star Wars games, but a LOT of really good ones.

Your entire argument seems to be, "I didn't like the games, so therefore they were terrible in an objective sense and anyone who thinks they were good must have brainwashed themselves."

While I'll agree that is kinda how it sounds... How exactly does anyone judge a video game in an objective sense? Exactly what criteria is used? Really videogames like books, movies or songs aren't really subject to objective grading.

You can look at the graphics and to a point say if they're good or bad, but even style is a big factor.

So honestly the only really objective measure of success would have to be sales, and if you base it upon that, all the Star Wars games did well, because they all sold well.

You're right, I don't carry any nostalgia for totally forgettable games. I suspect these games are much like anything cult following; people like it despite their serious flaws. Those games don't compare because they are uninteresting and do not hook me. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Star Wars, but I bet most people love it much like they loved Battletoads (which I ironically loved as a kid but it doesn't make it any less than a terrible game).

I am 23 years old and did not play those Star Wars games as a kid.

I still think they're **** good games. And I say this as someone who plays a lot of games.

While I'll agree that is kinda how it sounds... How exactly does anyone judge a video game in an objective sense?

This is a very good point. For example, I thought that Alien: Isolation was an absolutely amazing game, probably trhe best last-generation release and probably the best game under the Alien license I can remember playing. Ryan McAffery of IGN on the other hand, thought it was distinctly average.

Which led me to believe that SEGA simply didn't pay IGN enough.