I think the Gunboat is a casualty when the EU got nuked superlasered hypersolarblastedorwhateveryoucallitbystarkillerbase by Disney with the TFA. The refugees that made it into X-wing (HWK-290 YT-2400, E-wing, K-wing, TIE Defender, TIE Interdictor now Punisher, ect) are all you are going to see of the old EU to include the X-wing series unless Disney puts them in one of their shows which is unlikely.

We just got the Punishing One and Mist Hunter, which have not appeared in the new canon.

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tl;dr more upgrades and 'obscure' ships kill the game.

The evidence does not appear to support this contention. X-Wing in its current state has the largest upgrade pool that continues to grow. X-Wing features more 'obscure' ships than any other game in years. Yet X-Wing is the largest tabletop game this side of Netrunner and Magic.

Wall of text

tl;dr more upgrades and 'obscure' ships kill the game.

The evidence does not appear to support this contention. X-Wing in its current state has the largest upgrade pool that continues to grow. X-Wing features more 'obscure' ships than any other game in years. Yet X-Wing is the largest tabletop game this side of Netrunner and Magic.

For now. If the releases continue at the current pace I guarantee this baby is going to jump the shark. X Wing is still a toddler in tabletop game terms.

Precedent would suggest otherwise (see above examples)

Ummm...how can the first wave since, what, wave *3*, that is all drawn ENTIRELY from ships seen on-screen being seen as "obscure"??

I mean, every ship in wave 9 was seen in a Star Wars movie or TV show - nothing here is 'expanded universe' at all, for once.

To be fair, a children's cartoon on the Disney Channel is really hardly any more "on screen" than stuff from comic books or video games. It's just as EU as anything from the EU ever was.

Nope. I get your point, but still Nope.

Netrunner and Magic are card games.

Stain on our history? It was the best time of X-Wing Miniatures Game.

I'm sorry to be a Star Wars fan for over 30 years... now some seconds in a TV show for children worth much more than decades of books, comics and excellent games.

Star Wars - never before designed for children...

This kind of snobbery is the worst. Rebels is a thing - why is it worth less than ships which make a brief appearance in some other media? I've been a fan for Star Wars for 20 years - never heard of a kihraxz or a K-Wing before I started playing this game.

You do realise that 2 of the ships released in 9 are from the actual movies right?

It's not because it's in a movie that it is good. Star Wars is much more than the movies or TV shows. At least it was supposed to be.

Times change, legends are legends, and star wars is star wars. They are now apart, we get now a MCU like star wars universe. Which is actually good, so shut up, give them all your money and enjoy the ride.

Still, I want to see that … TIE AVENGER for **** sake. Give me my Avenger, **** the gunboat lovers, the real love is the Avenger. (technical the x7 is as close as we will ever get I guess. Maybe I should just print out Avenger models to use as x7?)

I think the Gunboat is a casualty when the EU got nuked superlasered hypersolarblastedorwhateveryoucallitbystarkillerbase by Disney with the TFA. The refugees that made it into X-wing (HWK-290 YT-2400, E-wing, K-wing, TIE Defender, TIE Interdictor now Punisher, ect) are all you are going to see of the old EU to include the X-wing series unless Disney puts them in one of their shows which is unlikely.

The HWK and TIE Defender are back in canon already, along with the non-clone version of the Z-95 that we have in this game.I really doubt they'll be the last Legends designs to be canonized. It's much easier to bring back a ship than a post-ROTJ storyline, after all.

Ummm...how can the first wave since, what, wave *3*, that is all drawn ENTIRELY from ships seen on-screen being seen as "obscure"??

I mean, every ship in wave 9 was seen in a Star Wars movie or TV show - nothing here is 'expanded universe' at all, for once.

To be fair, a children's cartoon on the Disney Channel is really hardly any more "on screen" than stuff from comic books or video games. It's just as EU as anything from the EU ever was.

Except its not, because that show is canon whether you like it or not. Rather than be in fluid motion of whether its actually part of the story or not, everything in Rebels is part of the standard timeline in the star wars universe. Hera and Kanan and everyone else in the show are just as canon as luke, Jango fett, etc.

theres more than just the trilogy to the starwars universe.

afaik there isnt a single ship in this game that doesnt exist in the movies or series.

Raider. Was specially designed by FFG and approved by LF for the game.

The HWK and TIE Defender are back in canon already, along with the non-clone version of the Z-95 that we have in this game.

The non-clone Z-95 still looks a little different from the game model:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Z-95_Headhunter

Raging against what now?

theres more than just the trilogy to the starwars universe.

afaik there isnt a single ship in this game that doesnt exist in the movies or series.

Raider. Was specially designed by FFG and approved by LF for the game.

I always found that decision weird, given that the patrol corvette looks very similar and has been in Rebels. But hey, I prefer the look of the raider, so it's all good.

Considering the fact that the OP has not returned to the topic, I'm assuming he learned the lesson that just because a ship is from something he doesn't watch, doesn't make it "obscure".

As many have pointed out, these ships are all from official canon star wars products (tv or movies), as opposed to some of the ships we've had earlier that were sometimes very obscure, only appearing in a computer game some 20 years ago or the like.

theres more than just the trilogy to the starwars universe.

afaik there isnt a single ship in this game that doesnt exist in the movies or series.

Raider. Was specially designed by FFG and approved by LF for the game.

I always found that decision weird, given that the patrol corvette looks very similar and has been in Rebels. But hey, I prefer the look of the raider, so it's all good.

Considering the fact that the raider was released 2 months after the Rebels TV-show was released, I'd say they didn't even know about the patrol corvette when the decision was made to start work on the Raider.

Of course, I'm just assuming it takes more than 2 months to design a ship from the ground up, get it to the printers, create the box art, make the rules and cards and then release it.

So yeah, sure, there's a similarly sized ship in Rebels, but that show didn't exist when they started working on the Raider.

As someone who has only just started playing recently despite being old enough to have watched the first (released) film in the cinema I can say that what drew me to the game was the thought of recreating the 'trench' scene (with the proper outcome of Vader smoking Luke and saving the Death Star) on a tabletop. So yea, nostalgia for T-65 X-Wings, TIE's and the TIE advanced. I've only got the big films as reference so have no particular affinity or draw to things like the Decimator, StarViper, etc.

However it's not the existence of non iconic ships that very nearly put me off starting the game. I'm fine with the fact that for more diversity we need different ships that I personally don't know where in the 'lore/cannon/past' they came from. What I've only just managed to justify and even now still hurts is that because I wanted to fly 'Vader' and also wanted to use the 'better' builds I need to buy:

TIE Advanced (this is fine)

A whole host of other products just for cards or go to the secondary market for individual cards. (This is not fine in the volume it now stands at.)

I mean seriously I want to put engine upgrades on Vader and I need to buy either the Falcon which is for a faction I don't really want to play or the hounds tooth which is for the other faction that I may play put didn't really want the YV-666 as one of the first purchases. I was gifted my TIE/x1 title and ATC from another veteran player but without that I'm looking at the Imperial Raider which is 'in faction' but I don't want to play epic so a huge amount of money for what I would use out of that box. I did buy the StarViper for the Autothrusters but it's not a ship I knew about or wanted. Oh and needing more dice than they give you in a starter box is really annoying as well. For people who grew with the game it's a non issue but for anyone starting now it's a much bigger expense. There are more upgrades I'd like to add; Slave-1 for stealth device and I could actually use the model for that I suppose. Not that anyone does they use palpmobile or Decivader both of which require multiple purchases to use effectively.

I've probably broken the back of purchases to get me a single list that I want to play and isn't too far away form the list I'd really like to play but so far I've bought:

Both core sets

1 TIE Fighter

1 TIE/fo

1 TIE Interceptor

1 Imperial Aces

1 TIE Advanced

1 Inquisitors TIE Advanced Prototype

1 T70 X-Wing

1 StarViper

Been gifted TIE/x1, Advanced Targeting Comp, Veteran Instincts.

Sure I do have a Rebel list for emergencies (3 X-Wings) and some options to fly other stuff but that is way more than I thought I'd need when I decided to get my first starter box!

Another minor issue is that locally (50 mile radius) nobody had Imperial Aces, Slave-1, Falcon and find it hard to get them. I ended up having to mail order Imp Aces which is not a huge deal but doesn't support my FLGS which I would prefer to do.

tl;dr

Non iconic ships are not going to put new players off the game. The way upgrades are packaged will and it will only get worse.

I don't 'like' your situation Paul, but I think it's a good example of how this game, at such an early stage of it's development, already has a significant barrier to entry for new players.

I always found that decision weird, given that the patrol corvette looks very similar and has been in Rebels. But hey, I prefer the look of the raider, so it's all good.

Patrol corvette? Do you mean the Arquitens? Because that thing is bigger than it looks. The CR90 is 150 metres, the Arquitens is like, 250. A Neb B is only 300, so that gives you an idea of the scale issue of including an Arquitens in X Wing.

I don't 'like' your situation Paul, but I think it's a good example of how this game, at such an early stage of it's development, already has a significant barrier to entry for new players.

Well, to be fair, I've played almost every tabletop game out there over the years so I can personally equate the expense with buying an 'army' in other systems. So it's not the total amount of money that I think is the problem. It's the fact that there is a complete disparity between the perception that X-Wing gives a potential customer and the reality of how it's packaged. Let me explain what I mean.

For (pick almost any other tabletop game here) I know that I need to buy a unit and when I get it I'll probably need to assemble it, paint it and eventually I'll get to use it in my army anywhere between a week and a long time later. Now because X-wing comes pre-painted people assume that whatever they buy they can use straight away. I do accept that you can put the ship on the base and pick one of the supplied pilot cards and fly it within a couple of minutes of opening the package. The problem is that to use it to its maximum affect you need to buy other products and in a lot of cases those other products are not even for your chosen faction.

If the new player is not exposed to this until they have already started buying things there is real potential for them feeling mislead or cheated. If they find out or have it explained to them by existing players there is the potential for them to just call it too expensive and complicated to bother with. Neither of those options is good for FFG or the new player.

I get that once you have 'broken the back' of those initial purchases you end up with a big collection that means you can fly any faction and each new purchase potentially breathes new life into almost everything you own. That is where people who started at the birth of the game are. I just think FFG need to give some thought to people who might want to pick it up now. I mean Scum & Villainy is a huge missed opportunity. That was the ideal chance to bring new players into the game with a single bolt-on to a core set that got them started and they produce a product that assumes you already had an existing collection. Most wanted should have been a self contained 100 points of stuff and there should have been another product with the dials and cards only for the Firepsray/Hawk.

You're exactly right, and it's what I was getting at when I said the simplicity of the game was slipping away. When I first started X Wing when the core set was released, it was really just bust out some X Wings and some TIEs and go crazy. Easy peasy. And new players can be tricked into thinking that's still the case and while essentially it IS (you can just fly the ships you like and ignore the upgrades altogether) new players will find it very hard to start winning games until they buy into the whole upgrade card thing. And committing to buying enough of the salient upgrades to run even a small handful of viable competitive builds quickly becomes expensive and complicated and downright painful when you're buying ships you never wanted, just to get the cardboard that comes with it. Starviper, I'm looking at you! New players will either have the system explained to them by veteran players, and be put off, or they'll find out the hard way and be put off. It's not the quick, easy to get into and easy to understand system it once was, and for a game that's only, what, four years old? That's not a good place to be in.

I agree with the whole issue of packaging and upgrade cards. I only fly rebels, so I don't want to buy other ships just for the upgrades.

I'm very glad there's a good market for individual cards out there, but even that falls apart when you try to get autothrusters and the like, which are impossible to get hold of. Even things like R5-P9 are a bit much for me to get hold of.

You're exactly right, and it's what I was getting at when I said the simplicity of the game was slipping away. When I first started X Wing when the core set was released, it was really just bust out some X Wings and some TIEs and go crazy. Easy peasy. And new players can be tricked into thinking that's still the case and while essentially it IS (you can just fly the ships you like and ignore the upgrades altogether) new players will find it very hard to start winning games until they buy into the whole upgrade card thing. And committing to buying enough of the salient upgrades to run even a small handful of viable competitive builds quickly becomes expensive and complicated and downright painful when you're buying ships you never wanted, just to get the cardboard that comes with it. Starviper, I'm looking at you! New players will either have the system explained to them by veteran players, and be put off, or they'll find out the hard way and be put off. It's not the quick, easy to get into and easy to understand system it once was, and for a game that's only, what, four years old? That's not a good place to be in.

That is luckily only relevant to a subset of people. When you are playing at home, nothing stops you from sticking to the basics and slowly building up. Its what I did when I started in wave 4. It gets problematic when you want to start gaming at open spaces.

I think the way new upgrades coming with ships in new waves is just fine, sure i bought a starviper just for AT but if you compare it to ccgs random blind packs, its a whole lot better to just buy a ship and know you get the cards you needed, and i actually like looking at my starviper model and even have fun flying it in casual sometimes

I do hate the 'fixes' for tie advanced being on an epic ship (almost another game and very different price class)

and i'd like to fly slave1 but to fly it in the faction where it belongs also is nearly epic price for one of the weakest large ships (60euro for mostwanted+slave1)

Still didn't put me off from starting with this game though, i think getting into anything collectible you should do some research before starting, and even though it will take quite a while till i can upgrade and fly everything the way i want to, i sure don't regret getting into x-wing

With as much content as there is now i don't think there is a way to let anyone get started with any ship for cheap, but they can start with x-wings and tie-fighters from the core sets, and then it's too late to turn back anyway.. once you get sucked in you'll have to buy everything anyway!

Edit:

just noticed what thread this is in and this is all offtopic.. so ill add...

The upgrades aren't the thing to put one off from starting, but the fact that even when you start 4 years late, you still have to wait all this time to get a Gunboat!! *hides*

And this is different from getting into a mature LCG how? Or any mature game?

When you are playing at home, nothing stops you from sticking to the basics and slowly building up.

Nothing stops you from simply printing out a list with all the toys you want. Most game stores would actually allow this as well, at least for a bit.

Also there is no one single upgrade that's actually required to play the game. There's upgrades that are very useful on given ships such as the X1 title, but there's way more to X-Wing then just the Tie Advanced, even imperial side.

It may not be the most effective list, but you can play, have fun and actually win with a list that includes a Tie Interceptor and neither Push the Limits or Autothrusters.

I'm looking at some of the ships that come out, and if I didn't play x-wing I wouldn't know they were from star wars.

I guess this is part of my problem with wave IX - it's so disconnected for me. Sure, the alternative is millions of new pilots for existing platforms, but the ships themselves are part of what makes this game iconic.

I'm going to go and dig out my t-65s.

And I want a gunboat.