Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Assuming we're talking range 1-3 PWT, could you care to explain how? (genuine question)

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Assuming we're talking range 1-3 PWT, could you care to explain how? (genuine question)

Definitely. First thing you wanna realize is the best turret players in the game don't just run there ships along the edge. They bring there ships through the field. I had to play the berling brothers (Jeff B and Eric B) alot when I first got started. They imo are THE best turret players in the game. Having played with these guys and practiced with them I too became pretty good at flying turrets. When ever I played these guys it was basically a chess match.

Back when the big thing was double druids, which Jeff B used to beat Paul at Gencon 2 years ago in elimination rounds and then get runner up, the name of the game was damage mitigation. I could mitigate 3 damage a turn while most other falcons could only mitigate 2. That means I was also trying to stay at range 2 or 3 of other falcons. When playing against other double droids especially against one of the brothers the trick was to consistently fight at range 1 to push damage through and make r2d2 flip up crits.

Against normal builds the game was to try and make them chase me. If you're chasing a falcon or out rider you're playing right into there strength. I'll never forget playing an a wing procket swarm where I set my falcon up to joust the swarm and the guy didn't think I was gonna turn away and boost. Once I turned it was gonna be near impossible to get his rockets off.

When Dash came out range now mattered even more because of the range 1 donut hole. Dash v han was all about getting to places where han couldn't shoot you range 1. Dash v Dash if you didn't have iniative you had to fly fast and try to put yourself in unpredictable places so the other one can't reach range 1. Or if you had iniative against Dash you'd try to make him barrel roll so he loses potential offensive modifiers. Also as an aside push the limit Dash isn't that good imo because it makes you super predictable. Lone wolf Dash is where it's at. Lone wolf Dash won Gencon too. When playing Dash especially with only 1 action and no boost you're dial selection becomes very important especially with all the ps9 stuff out there but Dash is also 1 of the best blockers in the game so throw some anti pursuits on him and go to work.

I guess the Tldr is that against really good players it feels like a chess match and not a dice off. I think there are a ton of people out there who do just stick to the outsides and orbit the map but I wouldn't consider them good players. Range control is so important in turret v turret matches and also knowing when to use the rocks for cover. The people saying maneuvers don't matter with them probably have never placed very high with them outside of store championships.

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Assuming we're talking range 1-3 PWT, could you care to explain how? (genuine question)

Definitely. First thing you wanna realize is the best turret players in the game don't just run there ships along the edge. They bring there ships through the field. I had to play the berling brothers (Jeff B and Eric B) alot when I first got started. They imo are THE best turret players in the game. Having played with these guys and practiced with them I too became pretty good at flying turrets. When ever I played these guys it was basically a chess match.

Back when the big thing was double druids, which Jeff B used to beat Paul at Gencon 2 years ago in elimination rounds and then get runner up, the name of the game was damage mitigation. I could mitigate 3 damage a turn while most other falcons could only mitigate 2. That means I was also trying to stay at range 2 or 3 of other falcons. When playing against other double droids especially against one of the brothers the trick was to consistently fight at range 1 to push damage through and make r2d2 flip up crits.

Against normal builds the game was to try and make them chase me. If you're chasing a falcon or out rider you're playing right into there strength. I'll never forget playing an a wing procket swarm where I set my falcon up to joust the swarm and the guy didn't think I was gonna turn away and boost. Once I turned it was gonna be near impossible to get his rockets off.

When Dash came out range now mattered even more because of the range 1 donut hole. Dash v han was all about getting to places where han couldn't shoot you range 1. Dash v Dash if you didn't have iniative you had to fly fast and try to put yourself in unpredictable places so the other one can't reach range 1. Or if you had iniative against Dash you'd try to make him barrel roll so he loses potential offensive modifiers. Also as an aside push the limit Dash isn't that good imo because it makes you super predictable. Lone wolf Dash is where it's at. Lone wolf Dash won Gencon too. When playing Dash especially with only 1 action and no boost you're dial selection becomes very important especially with all the ps9 stuff out there but Dash is also 1 of the best blockers in the game so throw some anti pursuits on him and go to work.

I guess the Tldr is that against really good players it feels like a chess match and not a dice off. I think there are a ton of people out there who do just stick to the outsides and orbit the map but I wouldn't consider them good players. Range control is so important in turret v turret matches and also knowing when to use the rocks for cover. The people saying maneuvers don't matter with them probably have never placed very high with them outside of store championships.

Thanks for this insightful and well-thought-out response. All of what you're saying is true, though it seems to me that the Falcon example you've brought up is a very specific one. So, let's say damage mitigation is equal between both, then what good is range control? I totally agree with you over Dash, though he isn't really a PWT.

Then again, great response!

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Who can forget Paul Heaver's k-turn in 2014.

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

Assuming we're talking range 1-3 PWT, could you care to explain how? (genuine question)

Definitely. First thing you wanna realize is the best turret players in the game don't just run there ships along the edge. They bring there ships through the field. I had to play the berling brothers (Jeff B and Eric B) alot when I first got started. They imo are THE best turret players in the game. Having played with these guys and practiced with them I too became pretty good at flying turrets. When ever I played these guys it was basically a chess match.

Back when the big thing was double druids, which Jeff B used to beat Paul at Gencon 2 years ago in elimination rounds and then get runner up, the name of the game was damage mitigation. I could mitigate 3 damage a turn while most other falcons could only mitigate 2. That means I was also trying to stay at range 2 or 3 of other falcons. When playing against other double droids especially against one of the brothers the trick was to consistently fight at range 1 to push damage through and make r2d2 flip up crits.

Against normal builds the game was to try and make them chase me. If you're chasing a falcon or out rider you're playing right into there strength. I'll never forget playing an a wing procket swarm where I set my falcon up to joust the swarm and the guy didn't think I was gonna turn away and boost. Once I turned it was gonna be near impossible to get his rockets off.

When Dash came out range now mattered even more because of the range 1 donut hole. Dash v han was all about getting to places where han couldn't shoot you range 1. Dash v Dash if you didn't have iniative you had to fly fast and try to put yourself in unpredictable places so the other one can't reach range 1. Or if you had iniative against Dash you'd try to make him barrel roll so he loses potential offensive modifiers. Also as an aside push the limit Dash isn't that good imo because it makes you super predictable. Lone wolf Dash is where it's at. Lone wolf Dash won Gencon too. When playing Dash especially with only 1 action and no boost you're dial selection becomes very important especially with all the ps9 stuff out there but Dash is also 1 of the best blockers in the game so throw some anti pursuits on him and go to work.

I guess the Tldr is that against really good players it feels like a chess match and not a dice off. I think there are a ton of people out there who do just stick to the outsides and orbit the map but I wouldn't consider them good players. Range control is so important in turret v turret matches and also knowing when to use the rocks for cover. The people saying maneuvers don't matter with them probably have never placed very high with them outside of store championships.

Thanks for this insightful and well-thought-out response. All of what you're saying is true, though it seems to me that the Falcon example you've brought up is a very specific one. So, let's say damage mitigation is equal between both, then what good is range control? I totally agree with you over Dash, though he isn't really a PWT.

Then again, great response!

So let's say it's double droids vs double droids. Usually you're always going to take an evade action, guess 0 with 3p0, and recover a shield with r2d2, thus mitigating gunner and 3 damage per turn. So in that match up you want to control the range so that when you lose shields you don't take hull. That's the ideal situation because then r2d2 has no adverse effects. Now the ball is in your opponents court because for him to damage you he has to close to range 1. If I'm able to put damage cards on him when I take the shields then I can stay safe at range 2 and 3 and make him flip crits over. When I get a good crit I'll go in for the kill. Some times this puts the player in a position where he has to do something other than evade. Sometimes he has to boost to range 1 just to try and push damage through or maybe he focuses instead of evades. These are risky because you sacrifice defense. One of the best wins I had was boosting my falcon into range 1 of another falcon to try and get the kill. I had to roll perfectly to get the damage through and if I didn't kill him he'd certainly kill me on the return shot. I was able to get 2 hits and 2 crits and finish him off.

Gonna disagree with the OP and alot of the posters here. Some of the most intense matches I've ever had were turret v turret matches where yes maneuvers mattered.

I have had plenty of intense matches with PWTs involved too, the problem or boring ones I've had are the mirrors.

Ever had Dash v Dash, Han v Han, JM v JM, at the end of a game where the two ships are essentially clones? Dodging or outflying means nothing the only thing you can do is hope your opponent makes a mistake flying onto an obstacle or off the board as the only thing you can do is get lucky on dice.

I like turrets, just wish they had windows and/or arc relevance so that out flying your opponent mattered.

Don't give them a reason to have a 3rd Falcon expansion...

Personally, not a fan of the idea. Feels like a gimmick. These aren't WW2 tanks here, they're spaceships capable of, you know... space flight. I'm pretty sure PWTs are well past the point of people needing to complain endlessly about them. Turrets have been a part of the game since before 90% of everyone here even started playing so... Kinda tired of the steady hum of the whine-turbines around here.

I got something to say to the constant PWT complainers. Grow up. Are PWTs really pissing you off that bad? Then go play something else. Seriously. You want to ***** about your opponent being 'auto-win' because they brought X unit, Warmachine would love you to come and play! Try on 40k for size, it sounds like it fits. Or maybe MTG is more your style?

Honestly, if you can't write and fly a list to beat PWTs then you really are a total noob. L2P noobs.

I remember Y-wings released simultaneously with the Core set, what's the deal with the 10%?

The rebels have 8 ships that can fire out of arc, it is getting a little ridiculous.

The Imperials so far only have the Decimator and Gozanti, we should get some Imperial Dengars and IG-88s!

Personally, not a fan of the idea. Feels like a gimmick. These aren't WW2 tanks here, they're spaceships capable of, you know... space flight. I'm pretty sure PWTs are well past the point of people needing to complain endlessly about them. Turrets have been a part of the game since before 90% of everyone here even started playing so... Kinda tired of the steady hum of the whine-turbines around here.

I got something to say to the constant PWT complainers. Grow up. Are PWTs really pissing you off that bad? Then go play something else. Seriously. You want to ***** about your opponent being 'auto-win' because they brought X unit, Warmachine would love you to come and play! Try on 40k for size, it sounds like it fits. Or maybe MTG is more your style?

Honestly, if you can't write and fly a list to beat PWTs then you really are a total noob. L2P noobs.

I remember Y-wings released simultaneously with the Core set, what's the deal with the 10%?

The rebels have 8 ships that can fire out of arc, it is getting a little ridiculous.

The Imperials so far only have the Decimator and Gozanti.

If all factions played the same it would be silly to have different factions... just for cosmetics/lore...

Personally, not a fan of the idea. Feels like a gimmick. These aren't WW2 tanks here, they're spaceships capable of, you know... space flight. I'm pretty sure PWTs are well past the point of people needing to complain endlessly about them. Turrets have been a part of the game since before 90% of everyone here even started playing so... Kinda tired of the steady hum of the whine-turbines around here.

I got something to say to the constant PWT complainers. Grow up. Are PWTs really pissing you off that bad? Then go play something else. Seriously. You want to ***** about your opponent being 'auto-win' because they brought X unit, Warmachine would love you to come and play! Try on 40k for size, it sounds like it fits. Or maybe MTG is more your style?

Honestly, if you cwDarkcloak and fly a list to beat PWTs then you really are a total noob. L2P noobs.

You sound like a **** unable to understand that the point has nothing to do with beatable or unbeatable turrets but that turrets are boring without limitations.

Take 2 duelling Jumpmasters as an example. There is no point to flying anymore, no matter where each of us flies or moves, the ships are the same distance apart and the game just becomes a roll off, whoever gets the luckier dice wins. If you think that's fun, why are you here and not playing a game like Snakes and Ladders?

Actually I see the point entirely. This is just more turbine squeal. Why am I not playing Snakes and Ladders? Because, friend, I grew up a long time ago and now it takes something a bit more involved than that to keep me occupied. If you think "duelling jumpmasters" are always going to be the same distance apart and that X-Wing devolves into a dice-fest whenever PWTs hit the table then you, sir, are the problem.

But then again I look at your huge post count and am awed by your firm grasp of the game, spelling ability, and obvious veteran status. Nameless dude whose identity I can't even be bother to scroll up one click to ascertain has said it best! He doth decree! Maybe it's a she, who cares?

PWT hate is JUVENILE. Over exuberant obsession with anything having to do with TOYS is by definition juvenile. Go cry to your mommy, noob.

I wasn't going to get involved, but Darkcloak, you are out of line. Calling someone a noob and discussing their post count? What the hell is that about? Someone isn't a Veteran or a noob based on thread post count! That is an absolutely ridiculous thing to even bring up. And even if it was true, who cares? Does your opinion count more because you are a "Veteran"? Of course not! He's entitled to his opinion, and you're entitled to yours, but neither one of you are " right" or "wrong". Just to say, "I disagree, and your opinion is stupid and whining" is not helpful to the discussion and rude. Grow up! And I don't mean age. Being rude to a noob is a great way to chase new players away and ruin the community. And to be honest, Darkcloak, the evidence is against your opinion. One of the developers recently stated that he wished PWTs had been differently handled and now we get a new mobile arc mechanic. It seems to me FFG is not in love with PWT anymore.

So you like endless pages of people complaining forever about the same things? Yeah. I'm not a very nice person, but you know what? That's what happens when you go and call people *****. I complained originally about hardcore PWT haters being whiny babies, and lo and behold along comes a PWT hater to tell me I'm what's wrong with X-Wing. Point in case I'd say.

Sure I can be abrasive, but you know what? Who cares. Don't like the things I say? Well... again who cares? Don't click like, or maybe even... attack my argument and start a debate! So what was the argument again? Ah yes PWTs and the new mobile arc.

Did anyone read the Fly Casual article? They flat out bring up mobile arcs as a player invented solution to PWT hate. So Wave 9, years later, FFG is finally going to "fix" PWTs? They wish they had implemented it better? Um, hello folks the reason they wish it had been handled better was to avoid this totally childish player response, not because it was a bad game mechanic. So there, that's my take on PWTs. It was a thing since day one, we should all have to learn how to handle it like big boys and girls. Stop crying and start flying. Plain and simple. FFG is well on their way, we all love X-Wing. So can the PWT hate. You don't like them? Fine, don't fly them. If you have a proper argument to make, make it. The analogy of the dueling JM5Ks? Two player face off again each other with PWTs and alpha strikes. So who is playing the game here? Who is actually affected by this? You the observer? If two other people playing X-Wing affects you somehow, then why? The meta? Can that too! People complain that now the tournament scene is dominated by Palp Aces and Wolf Packs, but before that there was another dominating archetype was there not? There is always going to be a dominant list type within the framework of any competitive scene and I think if you look back X-WIng is no different. We just have the rare fortune of having those dominant lists change and evolve over time as new waves are released. Someone pointed out that Imp Aces was actually a list that has been evolving since wave 4 or 5 and only now is coming into it's own as a real contender. That is entirely correct and if you care to strip away all the fanboy fanaticism you'll see that PWTs are no different in their evolution as a dominating archetype as well.

So, onto the mobile fire arc. Well for one it's obviously a very reactive decision on FFGs part and I think it was made entirely in response to the childlike behavior of those who wish to see PWTs removed from the game or nerfed so hard as to be unplayable. This is no way to run a game. Pandering to ones audience is always a bad idea and I hope FFG doesn't think it's going to be a good idea to hang off our every word. Just look at the tripe I write, goodness! Another thing that bothers me is the actual workings of the mobile fire arc token itself. Is that going to stay put during play? How much are you going to nudge your ship whilst fidgeting with that thing? If it slides too easily or not enough? I can hear the arguments now. No dude, I moved it this way last turn you just don't remember! Ugh. And then there are the possibilities of this mechanic being adapted for use on other ships and the idea that FFG could very well abandon PWTs as a mechanic in future waves. All that being said however... It could be a fun challenge to fly it properly. The Shadowcaster in particular represents a pretty thematic choice for the mobile arc mechanic. As I understand it the pilot operates the turret from the cockpit. Given that this ship exists some time before ANH it's reasonable to assume that the targeting capabilities of such a pilot operated turret are pretty dependent on the skill of the actual pilot and not the computer. Dash Rendar also has a fancy turret that he can shoot, but he exists in a time a few generations ahead of the Rebels show and so we can assume that since that cheeky bugger had his ship chrome plated, he'd probably spend a few bucks on a nice targeting computer mod too. So for this reason, I actually like the Shadowcaster and it's mobile arc. What really bothers me isn't the arc, it's the PWT hate revival it seems to have started.

End chapter 1.

Should we call people names? Well, haha, no not unless we expect them to call us names back, or bop us on the nose. But hey! That's life. Here is another question. Should new players be allowed to adopt negative attitudes about game mechanics and other players based on their preference for said mechanics? Well, no not unless they expect to not have anyone play X-Wing with them!

Thankfully the Falcon doesn't have a mobile firing arc.

Turrets have been part of the game since the beginning and the PWT almost as long. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong because there are probably people who dislike your playstyle just as much. A real turret will have plenty of freedom and speed so being able to fire in any direct is perfectly reasonable. That those attacks may be "out of arc" and trigger other things is something that sets those abilities apart; how much less useful would Autothrusters be if it only could be used at R3 because attacks would always be in arc?

I love PWTs!

They let my six year old daughter fly around and always blow up my Tie fighters, no matter the move she chose...

The mobile firing arc really doesn't make sense for the Shadow caster, UNLESS, you can fire secondary weapons out of it. And I mean basically anything that's not a turret. The Falcon, Outrider, and Dauntless all make use of the Primary weapon or cannon upgrade being able to fire in 360 degrees, but I believe the shadow caster will be a bigger version of Nera except it will be able to fire missiles, and possibly bombs/debris as well as torpedoes. That is the only reason the mobile firing arc makes sense to me, otherwise they would have announced the mobile firing arc change to turrets in HOTR with the new falcon.

The mobile firing arc really doesn't make sense for the Shadow caster, UNLESS, you can fire secondary weapons out of it. And I mean basically anything that's not a turret. The Falcon, Outrider, and Dauntless all make use of the Primary weapon or cannon upgrade being able to fire in 360 degrees, but I believe the shadow caster will be a bigger version of Nera except it will be able to fire missiles, and possibly bombs/debris as well as torpedoes. That is the only reason the mobile firing arc makes sense to me, otherwise they would have announced the mobile firing arc change to turrets in HOTR with the new falcon.

The ahadowcaster cant equip any secondary weapons. The mobile arc (from what we've seen so far) is basically just an auxilliary arc that you can rotate in different directions. Its in no way replacing PWTs, its just a new different mechanic

considering it doesnt have any secondary weapons at all, turret or otherwise, i doubt its going to allow firing torpedoes out a different arc than your main one.

I imagine its just to vastly improve its main gun's firing arcs, without making it a turret. The main reason i hate turrets is they take a heavy aspect of the game and dumb it down to "dont hit a rock, shoot something!" - this at least makes you think about which arc you think you will need to shoot out of. Limit a feature, dont remove it. Turrets remove that aspect of the game and this mobile turret just minimizes it.

Im still waiting for something else to be released about that mobile arc though. As of right now, its just a 3die ship with a half-turret weapon thats still priced like the current full-turret guys we got. Is that going to be enough to justify the lack of upgrades since it will most likely deny "out of arc" stuff? (or enable "in your arc" at different angles)

Falcon isnt as bad as say the Imp Firespray, but its still got the same issue: upgrades that dont function well together and a tad overpriced. Its also an old ship though, and im surprised they took as long as they did to re-release the Falcon since its one of three most iconic starwars ships, if not THE most iconic (yeah, i know xwings should have that title but i know a LOT more Falcon fans than Xwing fans). And of course, thats assuming the Rebels does something to make the falcon awesome again (right now i dont see it)