Question 1: Halberd vs Spear. Why does a mediocre Halberd when the Spear is better in every way and cheaper to boot.

I know there are some weapons in this game that are simply just better than others weapons, but it seems to be balanced out by how much they cost (giving a reason why the weaker weapons exist, they're cheaper). This doesnt seem to apply to the Spear though.

When used as a two-handed weapon the spear is better than the halberd. The spear has the FAST quality, has 4 encumbrance instead of 5, can be thrown up to close range, and has the same damage rating and crit rating as the halberd.

Halberd can be used as a spear, but even then its not quite as good (it can't be thrown).

The spear is simply better in every single way AND to top it off, its cheaper (only costs 20s instead of 75s). Am I missing something or is Spear just superior to Halberd in every single way?

Question 2: I'm ok with quarterstaffs being an off-hand defensive weapons but shouldn't characters to be able to wield a quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon if they wish?

And an extra note for those who dont understand how quarterstaff can be an off-hand defensive weapon:

To view the quarterstaff as a defensive one-handed (off-hand) weapon may be a somewhat new concept to some people based on their experience with other roleplaying games, where quarterstaffs usually are regarded as two-handed weapons. But wizards wielding quarterstaffs in one hand is very much in line with warhammer.

For those who have a hard time visualizing how it would look using a staff in the off-hand to parry incoming attacks i can highly recommend taking a look at Gandalf fighting in the Lord of the ring movies (i remember especially Gandalf fighting this way in the 3rd movie against orcs while defending Gondor, with staff in left hand and sword in right).

For those who say... "well thats all fine and dandy, but this is warhammer and not lord of the rings"... well, then you neednt look very far either... Just take a look at the huge gallery of old warhammer pictures featuring mages on the battlefield. A very common theme is mages wielding a sword (sicle, dagger etc) in their main hand and wielding a staff in their off-hand. There are also alot of old warhammer miniatures that feature wizards using this weapon combo (a simple googling of pics using words like "warhammer" and "wizard" will easily show several of these pictures for anyone who gives it a try).

For question 1, RAW the spear is better. Maybe they forgot to say that a polearm halberd (as opposed to a spear halberd) can be used to treat Close targets as Engaged.. ?

Question 2, you can wield it two-handed; but you may notice that the 2-handed quality simply makes you have to use it that way for full effect. There are penalties if you try to use one with 1 hand. There is no penalty to use a quarterstaff either 1-handed or 2-handed.

It may be the case that you can't use actions that require a two-handed weapon with a Spear. That's about all I can think of.

Don't have books with me but what weapon group is the halberd in?

I will probably be altering some of the weapon values/abilities in my game, I would suggest others do the same - the spear really is head and shoulders above every other weapon at this time.

pumpkin said:

Polearm

Polearm. Whereas the spear is in the "Spear" weapon group.

Yep, got books now.

I will simply be removing the "can use spear two handed for +1 damage" option, to better balance it.

Its also compares well against a hand weapon, but I have offset that by allowing a WS specialisation to be "ordinary" which then applies equally to hand weapons and daggers. This follows the description of what group means, even though in the specialisation list for WS hand weapon rather than ordinary is listed as a specialisation.

Halberd can be used 6,2 two handed or changed to spear grip for 5,2,fast (probably still two handed though).

I think that better balances spear against the other options.

I feel 5/2 fast for 5s is far superior to 5/3 for what 15s?

Even without the 2h option...

I am thinking maybe 4/2 for spear.

Did anyone play Mordheim when the rules were horribly spear biased and powergamers used to equip all their models with dual wield spears?

Kaptain O said:

never was as sad as to dual weild a spear, but alot of my warband were equiped with them, they were/are the best weapon in the game.

Kaptain O said:

Yep, reconsidered this a bit and I am going to make a one handed spear a 4/3 fast weapon (effectively no better than a dagger), two handed it becomes 5/3 fast (same as hand weapon but fast).

The halberd remains as is but using the amended spear stats, so can be used as a 6/2 polearm or a 5/3 fast spear (both two handed).

The rules always look a little wonky when only viewing the mechanical stats. However, consider this - spear vs hand weapon, spear cannot be sheathed it must always be carried in the hand.

How about Spears going 4/2 Fast and Pierce 1, slightly better in certain times but good old sword would be better over all. In addition quite a few cards wont work with a spear. Just from the toolkit (dont have box with me) Insulting Blow and Acrobatic strike.

alakazam said:

Very true.

And good luck trying to hide a spear under a cloak to sneak it into a place undetected.

...Unless it is a collapse-able spear... Hmmm.... Do you think with Skullduggery a Rogue character could make a spear that can be dis-assembled? Woo hoo.

alakazam said:

Yeah, only problem is.. I can't seem to find anything that makes the halberd better than the spear (as stated in the original post). All of the Halberds stats are equal to or worse that the spear, halberd is probably even bigger than the spear (so definetly not concealable), and its more expensive...

Am I missing something?

I'm amazed that the differences aren't as simple as: spear is lighter, so it is faster to use, while the halberd is heavier, thus slower, but it's a GIANT FRIGGIN AXE so it does more damage.

Oh well.

But there are differences.

Halberd is more versatile - need to do more damage, use 'halbard' stance. Need to be quicker, switch to 'spear' stance. This is a notable enough mechanical difference for it to be a considered choice by a player.

If you want an even bigger difference, you could easily make a GM call on it; have it gain a fortune die against mounted opponents - thats what it was mainly used for historically (rake a horses flanks, unseat a rider, etc...), it was the 'swiss army knife' of weapons.

Sorry, double posted accidentally, see post below.

alakazam said:

Ehm... sorry but you're wrong. Halberd DOES NOT do more damage that the Spear... thats the problem!

A thing you might have missed is that Spear actually should have the word "Special" as one of its qualities, since it has a special rule besides being a Fast weapon.

The spear stats are the stats it has when used with two hands. The spear description on p 75 states:

" It can be wielded two-handed, increasing its damage rating by 1".
This means that when you use the spear with two hands... it has the same DR and CR as the halberd but on top of that it is Fast too

Halberd: DR 6, CR 2, Two-Handed

Spear: DR 6, CR 2, Fast

If you use Halberd as a spear, it gets the same stats as a spear but isn't throwable, so its still not as good.

If you use Halberd one-handed without changing grip the comparison with Spear used one-handed becomes:

Halberd: DR 4, CR 2, +1 additional challenge die, +1 additional recharge token

Spear: DR 5, CR2, Fast

Spear is simply just better. And on top of it all, its cheaper and has less encumbrance too. The spear is simply superior to the halberd in every single way.

I'll just note that as soon as there's a single Action Cards that requires a Polearm, the halberd will be a more versatile weapon. It may be even now, because a Spear wielded in two hands may not be eligible for the Thunderous Blow Action Card.

Freiduin said:

So you're saying that a spear is better because you can disarm yourself with it? If you're gonna throw it away, I'd rather hand you a halberd if I'm in your party. Don't want you gimping us in a fight.

Freiduin said:

Achilles and I give this a thumbs up.

In my games I will probably take away the Fast ability on the Spear when used in one hand and change the special rule for using in two hands from +1 damage to Fast. This way the Halberd hits harder normally, but the spear can be wielded with a shield and is cheaper. They both can be used as a two-handed spear w/ the Fast ability.

I don't know if this is balanced, but I will try it out.

Katsue said:

That doesn't really cut it though does it? Looking at the basic stats for the weapon the Spear seems overpowered compared to the Halberd which shouldn't really be the case.

Now I get the impression (I don't profess to know a great deal about medieval warfare) that halberds and other polearms were only really of superior use when many of them were arrayed together on the battle field, but given the current rules and the fact that the fluff suggests that watchmen might well be armed with halberds (presumably as a deterrent to someone committing a crime) but all the criminal needs to do is arm himself with a spear to already get "one up" on the watchman! ..

The sergeants of musket regiments had halberds, the point was that someone could hurt a cavalry man if they got amongst the musketeers - so they were somewhat useful singularly.

I overlooked the two-handed spear rule - I agree, thats just retarded!

I will the two-hand rule and additionaly give a Halberd a fortune die against mounted opponents.

The Halberd was the broken weapon of v2, now it looks like the Spear has userped its position...

alakazam said:

That should have been " drop the two-hand rule"

...and I just noticed the edit feature, sorry for double post.