Tractor beam and illegal/impossible boost/barrel roll

By Ariano, in X-Wing Rules Questions

Posted at

Reference

Tractor beam token card says:
The first time a small ship receives a tractor beam token each round, the opposing player may choose one of the following effects:
- Perform a barrel roll using the [1 straight] maneuver template. The opposing player selects the direction of the barrel roll and the final position of the ship.
-Perform a boost using the [1 straight] maneuver template.
This is not an action or a maneuver, and can cause the ship to overlap obstacles (but not other ships). The ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps.
Barrel roll
  1. A ship cannot barrel roll if it would overlap another ship or an obstacle token, or if the maneuver template would overlap an obstacle token.
  2. A ship cannot barrel roll if this would cause the ship to flee the battlefield.
  3. When a player declares a barrel roll action for his ship, he must also declare whether the ship is barrel rolling to the left or the right before placing the maneuver template on the play area.
  4. If a player declares a barrel roll action for his ship and cannot complete the action in the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely.
  5. Performing a barrel roll does not count as executing a maneuver.
Boost
  1. A ship cannot boost if it would overlap another ship or an obstacle token, or if the maneuver template would overlap an obstacle token.
  2. A ship cannot boost if this would cause the ship to flee the battlefield.
  3. When a player declares a boost action for his ship, he must also declare which direction he is boosting before determining if he can complete the boost into that direction.
  4. If a player declares a boost action for his ship and cannot complete the action using the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely.
  5. Performing a boost does not count as executing a maneuver.
Question
The player controlling the tractor beam manages to put the first tractor beam token on a small base ship, then chooses one effect.
According to the interaction between tractor beam token and barrel roll/boost, it is without any doubt clear than the affected ship cannot overlap other ship nor escape the battlefield by the effect caused by the tractor beam token.
The player chooses as effect barrel roll to one side, let's say, the right. After declaring it, it is observed that unfortunately the ship cannot perform the desired barrel roll to the right (due to overlap with other ship or escaping the battlefield).
Point 4 on barrel roll says "if a player declares a barrel roll action for his ship and cannot complete the action in the desired direction, he may choose a different direction or a different action entirely."
Therefore I will say that:
1.- the player controlling the tractor beam can choose to force a barrel roll to the other side, here the left as the rules of barrel roll clearly allow it (caveat here, the barrel roll rules refer to barrel roll action on point 4 also for changing the side of the barrel roll), however
2.- the player controlling the tractor beam cannot choose to force a boost since:
2.1.- barrel roll rules allow for a different action, but the effect from the tractor beam token is not an action
2.2.- tractor beam token allows for one effect, here the player controlling it took the decision of this one effect to be a barrel roll, therefore the player cannot choose a second, different effect.
3.- the same will apply if the effect chosen was boost to start with and after declaration it turned out to be illegal. A change to barrel roll should not be possible due to points 2.1 and 2.2 above changing barrel roll rules by boost rules which are worded the same.
What do you think?
Possible to change the side (left versus right) of the barrel roll but impossible to change from barrel roll to boost or vice-versa ???
Thanks

Posted at

You can do whichever one you first announce you are doing that you can legally pull off. If you try to barrel roll them right and can't you can change it to a boost instead.

Posted at

@Goseki1: Sorry, but which is your basis in the rules for that conclusion ?

Posted at

The same rules as the actual boost/rolls. You declare, attempt, if it fails you can change direction or action.

This would work the same. Nowhere does it say if you move them with a tractor, it fails (due to a ship or board edge) you then lose the ability to move them at all.

Posted at

I'm not sure and FFG hasn't said anything about it as far as I know. I think that most people will play it like they do actions and allow an illegal choice to be rechosen but I am unaware of anything in the rules that indicate that that's the correct interpretation.

Posted at

That is precisely the key of the question. The current rules as written of both barrel roll and boost allow you to repeat/change the action (note the emphasis) as those rules, as written presuppose that the player doing the action is the player controlling the ship.

However, tractor beam token does not causes an action but an effect which is stated clearly not to be an action (nor a maneuver, but that part is irrelevant for the discussion).

My question goes a bit deeper, basically, the rule for actions (if the action that you declared does not work / is illegal, you just declare another one until you declare one that is legal) applies to effects ?

My gut feeling is YES, but as fas as I can see there nothing in the rules as written to support this.

Sorry, I do not intend to offend or bother you, but things like this or even some with a more obvious solution have made its way in the FAQ. This game is everything about wording sometimes...

Hope you see my conundrum now.

Posted at

I'm not sure and FFG hasn't said anything about it as far as I know. I think that most people will play it like they do actions and allow an illegal choice to be rechosen but I am unaware of anything in the rules that indicate that that's the correct interpretation.

Thanks a lot !

The analogy with actions should work well because you are entitled to one action during your action step like you are entitled to one effect for the tractor beam token, but still an official clarification seems to be missing.

Posted at

Given all the RAW problems with tractoring somebody onto an obstacle, I think we can assume the FAQ answer, when/if it comes, is going to conform to the well-established "don't overthink it" precedent.

For a more rules-based precedent: do we have a ruling that establishes what happens when your first choice for decloaking is blocked? That's also a non-action boost or barrel roll situation. (Don't have time to grep the FAQ for this right now, or I'd do it myself.)

Posted at

@digitalbusker:

Decloak, actually it is on the page 8 of the rules reference, under cloak. it says that if a ship cannot decloak in the desired direction, it can choose another one or choose not to decloak and further than if the ship cannot decloak in any direction, then it cannot decloak.

I think all those rulings were, more or less, given in email and here, in the forum, an then incorporated in the rules reference of the new core set instead of in the FAQ.

So, the analogy here seems for me to be strong enough to be confident that similar thing will apply to tractor beam token when they clarify all the issues with it; maybe in the Core Set 3.0 ???

Thanks guys and sorry if I bothered you.

Posted at

The answer lies in the first sentence of the reference card.

"... you may choose one of ..."

If the first thing you chose cannot be performed because it would be illegal, then you haven't chosen anything yet, so you can still choose the other option. If ALL options aren't possible, and you can't do ANY of them, then you can't move the ship with the tractor beam.

It's been very clear in the past that if some option chosen cannot be used, then the player is not locked into that one and only choice and now it's just a case of bad luck. They have always been able to try something else.

Posted at

The answer lies in the first sentence of the reference card.

"... you may choose one of ..."

If the first thing you chose cannot be performed because it would be illegal, then you haven't chosen anything yet,

So the choice happens after you measure and place the ship? That is a very strange theory.

Posted at

The answer lies in the first sentence of the reference card.

"... you may choose one of ..."

If the first thing you chose cannot be performed because it would be illegal, then you haven't chosen anything yet,

So the choice happens after you measure and place the ship? That is a very strange theory.

Posted at

The answer lies in the first sentence of the reference card."... you may choose one of ..."If the first thing you chose cannot be performed because it would be illegal, then you haven't chosen anything yet,

So the choice happens after you measure and place the ship? That is a very strange theory.
No, this game is pretty clear that things that aren't allowed to happen just retroactively don't happen.

That is odd and I haven't seen it explained. Care to share the basis?

Posted at

Concerning Actions:

Rules Reference, page 24, when defining Game Round says (emphasis added):

2. Activation Phase: In ascending order of
pilot skill, each ship reveals its dial, executes its
maneuvers, and may perform one action.
Rules Reference, page 3, when defining Actions, says (emphasis added):
The active ship can perform one standard action
during the “Perform Action” step of the Activation
phase.
(Related Topics: Acquire a Target Lock, Barrel Roll, Boost, Cloak)

In this section concerning Actions nothing is said about repeating/changing an action after it is discovered to be illegal.

However every single standard action states clearly and unambiguously that you can change to a different action if the one you are performing does not work.

See, please, Rules Reference:

  1. Acquire a target lock, page 3, bullet point 3: If a player declares an acquire a target lock action for his ship and the enemy ship he wants to lock is not at range, he may choose a different ship to lock or a different action entirely.
  2. Barrel roll, page 6, bullet point 4: If a player declares a barrel roll action for his ship and cannot complete the action in the desired direction, he may choose a different
    direction or a different action entirely.
  3. Boost, page 7, bullet point 4, same wording as barrel roll
  4. Cloak, page 8, bullet point 6, same wording as barrel roll
Similar wording and explanations for Boost and Barrel Roll can be found on page 5 of the *** v.4.1.2 under Performing a Barrel Roll / Boost and for Acquiring a Target Lock on page 4.
So, for actions, it seems that this change of action when the chosen one was not possible is intended to be part of the core rules of the game.

In more general terms, page 17 of the FAQ v.4.1.2 says under movement:

Q: A ship executes a maneuver in which its template or final position overlaps an obstacle or mine token. Due to avoiding collisions with other ships, it ends up stopping before reaching the obstacle or mine token. Does it still suffer the effects of moving through or overlapping that obstacle or mine token?
A: No.

Here you can see that even if your ship "conceptually" overlapped the obstacle or the mine but as that "intermediate" position is illegal, only the real final position counts and the obstacle or mine are ignored.

Similar will be the case of a Barrel Roll or Boost taking you out of the battlefield.

So, even if the point is not worded the way digitalbusker put it; I think that FFG thinking and ruling goes along that line.

But it is not a choice that happens after you measure as Rapture has written. You declare one thing first and try it first and only if that thing is not possible, only in that case, you can change to another one. It is not that you take a look first and decide after; you commit to something first and only if this something does not work, can you change your decision.