I' apologize if this has already been addressed. I did a quick search and was unable to find anything on this topic.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on using multiple tools on a project in a workshop environment. I'm in a campaign where the GM and I had a debate on the topic. For example. if I'm in my workshop, and I've built a variable output torch (welding specialist tool), and I've built a multi material 3d printer (specialist tool), as well as having simple tools. All the tools I made have safety features. so a combined roll would have 2 success and 3 advantage. My argument was that in carpentry, you have you simple kit with hammer, nails, a saw, pliers, etc. You can do most things with those tools, but they're not as accurate or efficient. If you then buy a table saw, a miter saw, and a power drill, you gain the benefit of each of the tools on your work (if they're used). His stance is that specialist tools are a set of tools and you would only receive the benefits from 1 set of tools. The workshop encumbrance threshold limits the number of tools you can have, but he feels that allowing them to stack would be game breaking.

I checked the book, but was unable to find anywhere that directly says they do or don't stack. I'm in 2 games in which they do stack and one that they don't. He's allowing me to make a case, but I'll obviously defer to his decision.

Thoughts?

IMO, the term “specialist tools” can be as broad or as narrow as your GM decides. That one term could include every single tool in your workshop, or it could include only a single tool plus all the various associated attachments, etc….

I don’t think there’s anything in RAW about this, so I’d say that this would be a good point for you and your GM to have a discussion and see what kind of consensus you can reach.

Unlimited stacking would add up to weird results.

Personally I would rule that you can benefit from one simple tool, one specialist tool and one precise instrument.

And if your GM is really generous that workshop counts not already as a specialist tool AND a simple tool, which by all means it should as bacta tanks are mentioned as part of the equipment for all medical workshops, med bays and infirmaries and are covered as specialist tool as well.

In general I am not a big fan of the whole +1 approach to tools in the system in general and usually prefer an approach which simply requires to have the right tools to enable making a check and this eliminating the whole need to hand out silly boni for having a personal supreme screwdriver with safety measures. But hey, game silly things are part of the system, so better embrace the silliness and build the freaking best screwdrivers, plasma welders and scanner dishes in the galaxy. ^-^

edit: Those gadgets and tools are not limited to crafting, but any general skill, from perception over stealth to negotiation, deception or cool. And we have already plenty of gear with plenty of extra dice, extra skill levels, upgrades, boost dice, setback removal, etc

So maybe, based on how the system works in other areas the maximum useable should simple be determined by your encumbrance rating? Like it is in the rest of the game. You can really, really stack those boni when you think about it. Heck my perception checks gain two ranks, lose two setback dice based on my gear as well. And that is just from one 2000 credit attachment, I did not even try to stack multiple items.

I am curious.. which book and section do the rules for the Specialist Tool(s) come from? I don't recall them off the top of my head and would like to read a bit more about them myself.

So as a GM if I asked you since I have an armory with 4 pistols that have Accuracy dice and I'm attacked in my armory can all the Accuracy dice stack for my combat check?

My answer would be no. It's a narrative process and I don't think it's the tool that makes the great item, it's the artisan/tech and the roll represents a cumulative end result. Measure twice, cut once, to coin a woodworking phrase.

You're describing the workshop in the book. You've essentially filled a workshop with good tools, so benefits from the specialist tool, benefit from the workshop, done.

I am curious.. which book and section do the rules for the Specialist Tool(s) come from? I don't recall them off the top of my head and would like to read a bit more about them myself.

Craftable item.

So as a GM if I asked you since I have an armory with 4 pistols that have Accuracy dice and I'm attacked in my armory can all the Accuracy dice stack for my combat check?

The more interesting question would be: If I have 4 attachments which all give me accuracy dice … do they stack? ;-)

Now you may say attachments are limited by hardpoints and this would us bring back to the question: What are the limitations of those tools? Encumbrance rating of you? Or your workshop? One of each? Just one? Ask you GM, pick one, stick with it OR ask Sam.

I have the feeling that he will suggest one of each too, but I have been wrong about his rulings before, so better just ask him "directly".

As I am running an engineer who is a walking, talking toolbox I badly want to argue that every power prybar, sonic screwdriver and pinkny flange adds a blue die on top of the workshop. But I think there eventually has to be a point of diminishing returns. As a GM, I would probably grant a fully kitted out tech with a workshop at their disposal perhaps three blue die - one for the generic tool kit, one for the specialized tools, one for the workshop.

I am curious.. which book and section do the rules for the Specialist Tool(s) come from? I don't recall them off the top of my head and would like to read a bit more about them myself.

Craftable item.

Could you be a little more detailed? I'd like to actually read the rules on how these work and what they offer... as I said.. a book and the section within it I should take a look at would be helpful.

I' apologize if this has already been addressed. I did a quick search and was unable to find anything on this topic.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on using multiple tools on a project in a workshop environment. I'm in a campaign where the GM and I had a debate on the topic. For example. if I'm in my workshop, and I've built a variable output torch (welding specialist tool), and I've built a multi material 3d printer (specialist tool), as well as having simple tools. All the tools I made have safety features. so a combined roll would have 2 success and 3 advantage. My argument was that in carpentry, you have you simple kit with hammer, nails, a saw, pliers, etc. You can do most things with those tools, but they're not as accurate or efficient. If you then buy a table saw, a miter saw, and a power drill, you gain the benefit of each of the tools on your work (if they're used). His stance is that specialist tools are a set of tools and you would only receive the benefits from 1 set of tools. The workshop encumbrance threshold limits the number of tools you can have, but he feels that allowing them to stack would be game breaking.

I checked the book, but was unable to find anywhere that directly says they do or don't stack. I'm in 2 games in which they do stack and one that they don't. He's allowing me to make a case, but I'll obviously defer to his decision.

Thoughts?

The better question is if you have any assistance. If this is by yourself, then there should be some severe time limitations to your actions. Heck, even programming and using the 3D printer would require a couple checks to make sure you can use it right. At least, that's how I do it.

IMO, the term “specialist tools” can be as broad or as narrow as your GM decides. That one term could include every single tool in your workshop, or it could include only a single tool plus all the various associated attachments, etc….

I don’t think there’s anything in RAW about this, so I’d say that this would be a good point for you and your GM to have a discussion and see what kind of consensus you can reach.

This is a good use of materials and equipment from the various books which I endorse within reason.

That being said, it represents a commitment of time, energy, and resources to get those specialist gear. If the GM didn't want the player to have that, then it shouldn't have been allowed.

Shikage - its in special modifications page 84.

Thanks guys. I of course would like to be able to use all my fancy tools, but I understand why he is concerned about it. I'll suggest the "one of each" approach, or perhaps even just doing a bonus die for each rather than automatic successes/advantage

2P51 - not the best analogy. I didn't make 3 cutting torches, and can move around the workshop over the course of several hours using the best tools for each part of the job. For me, the narrative is a lot more interesting when you have specific/custom equipment that you can use and make it a part of your crafting process, rather than saying "I use my specialized tools". Also, I definitely agree that craftsman are the source of great work," but you'll have a hard time finding me a craftsman who doesnt take pride in his tools and shop, or delight in the cool things they can do with them.

My main gripe about doing it with just 1 tool (set) is it makes it much much less likely that you'll construct anything more useful that what you can buy off the street. For example, a heavy blaster pistol using the blaster pistol template requires 5 advantage just to make something as good as what you can buy. I've done a fair bit of test rolling for fun. I almost never fail, but I rarely come out with more than 5 advantage, and the extra successes aren't particularly helpful by reducing the time it takes to make something that is just going to go back in the bin anyway.

As an example, I wanted to craft a new laser pistol for a crew mate. We had a 3 day trip back to Nar Shaddaa and I rolled 6 success... So my character, according to the roll, with the intention of making a masterpiece and 3 days to kill, spent less than an hour making a pistol that was worse than the 2 he parted out.. Not exactly a satisfying narrative. A failure would have been more rewarding in that it would at least make sense.

Sarone - I would happily increase the time taken to complete production if it means a better product.

Anyway, thanks for the input guys. I'll link this thread, and maybe we can come to a compromise of some sort.

There is a talent in SM that let's you swap successes for advantages, by suffering Strain. It's called Eye for Detail.

Now, since that exists, making a tool that can do the same would be a no-no, at least in my book. But this was my first idea for how to change how tools work, instead of just adding a boost die, or some auto-successes or -advantages.

As for the OP's question, considering the above, I would probably recommend the 1 of each tool-set route. It makes sense that more tools can provide more of a bonus than less tools. But sure, there has to be a limit. I would also consider this only to apply for when crafting in workshops.

Having a workshop means you're tied to that, you can't take it along, so it's site specific. Also, it counts as a tool kit, or right tools for the job, out of the box. So there's a boost. Since it's a place, with an encumbrance capacity, it makes sense to fill that with tools, to boost the workshop: Add in the 3D printer (specialist tool) and the gyroscopic hyperlight hypotorch (precision tool) and you're good to go: one boost, one auto-success and remove two setback dice. That would be a total of 17 encumbrance, out of 25 for the basic workshop. I guess the encumbrance capacity is meant for other stuff, like parts for instance, but it kind of makes sense that you spend that encumbrance to make the tools integrated into the workshop, so you don't have to carry them around. And just to repeat it: the workshop doesn't move (unless it's on your ship, and even then, you're tied to the place when crafting.

Also, if you want to craft anywhere, you need a speeder or someone really strong to carry all that crap around for you ...

Also, you could make it so that using more tools add more crafting time. Particularly if you want to go beyond 1 of each set of tools and having more bonuses stack. More tools doesn't make everything go quicker, as tools needs to be adjusted, activated, prepared and require programming, scanning and so on... if you really want to go that route. I wouldn't.

You are correct in that it can be rough to create things above and beyond but I also think that was their intention. You really need to focus in on crafting to really bust things out that will wow folks and if you want to out and out break the crafting rules you get the gambler specialty but I wouldn't worry about that too much till you get all your crafting stuff up and running.

So, with your pistol example it sounds like you just needed more of the o'll monies. Budget 3 or 4 of what ever you intend on making your masterpiece so you can leverage the extra blue dice. didn't get enough advantage for autofire? buy 3 blue dice and roll again! At every opportunity lower the difficulty of your next roll. 4 advantage lets you do it perminantly and 2 (or 3?) lets you do it for your next roll. Hell some times it's usefull to junk a good roll to lower the diff and get you 4 blue for the next one. Always have someone help you, +1 blue die for the guy your making the gun for helping is always a bonus. My tech makes everyone help for their mods and items so the 'understand them better'.

I have looked a lot at the crafting and I totally feel your pain but in the end you can get a lot of extra blue dice from specialties (4 all told +1 for a helper) and even turn up to 3 success to 3 advantage.

As for crafted tools stacking upgrades, advantage, and auto success ... hmm, that is a tough one. Of course as a crafter I would love to get my hands on all the bonuses I can and how you are looking at things makes sense. But from a game and gm view I'd either go with a flat no or put a limit. You have to keep in mind you are kinda talking about /potentially/ having an auto advantage and upgrade for 1 encumbrance and 50 credits. Say your shack holds 20 encumbrance (I don't recall off the top of my head) and you kinda see where that could get out of control. Myself, if I were running things I'd be happy with 2 or /maybe/ 3 if you talk nice to me and bring all the pizza stacking. At 4 you basicly get to auto lower difficulty permnantly and I don't think that really represents the learning side of things well.

You need to keep in mind that while /you/ may have the best and most innocent intentions that GM's balance to the extreme because, well, people tend to take advantage. Not all but it happens enough that it makes us a little gun shy about some things.

Thanks guys. I of course would like to be able to use all my fancy tools, but I understand why he is concerned about it. I'll suggest the "one of each" approach, or perhaps even just doing a bonus die for each rather than automatic successes/advantage

2P51 - not the best analogy. I didn't make 3 cutting torches, and can move around the workshop over the course of several hours using the best tools for each part of the job. For me, the narrative is a lot more interesting when you have specific/custom equipment that you can use and make it a part of your crafting process, rather than saying "I use my specialized tools". Also, I definitely agree that craftsman are the source of great work," but you'll have a hard time finding me a craftsman who doesnt take pride in his tools and shop, or delight in the cool things they can do with them.

My main gripe about doing it with just 1 tool (set) is it makes it much much less likely that you'll construct anything more useful that what you can buy off the street. For example, a heavy blaster pistol using the blaster pistol template requires 5 advantage just to make something as good as what you can buy. I've done a fair bit of test rolling for fun. I almost never fail, but I rarely come out with more than 5 advantage, and the extra successes aren't particularly helpful by reducing the time it takes to make something that is just going to go back in the bin anyway.

As an example, I wanted to craft a new laser pistol for a crew mate. We had a 3 day trip back to Nar Shaddaa and I rolled 6 success... So my character, according to the roll, with the intention of making a masterpiece and 3 days to kill, spent less than an hour making a pistol that was worse than the 2 he parted out.. Not exactly a satisfying narrative. A failure would have been more rewarding in that it would at least make sense.

Sarone - I would happily increase the time taken to complete production if it means a better product.

Anyway, thanks for the input guys. I'll link this thread, and maybe we can come to a compromise of some sort.

Using spare successes is what Eye for Detail is for.

I'd like to know your basic Mechanics dice pool and what spec. It seems to me without abusing and loop-holing the rules, a PC that wants to focus on being a great crafter can jump into the Droid Tech tree and with Improved Speaks Binary applied to a minion R2, a couple ranks of Eye for Detail, and a set of Specialist Tools, that player can have 3 Boost dice without trying to loophole and abuse the use of multiple tools on a single check. Should be plenty of Advantages with a good dice pool and no creative rule bending.

We don't have droids in our game so I forgot about having the droid help you! Nice!

I told my players they needed the right tools to do a skullduggery check and they lost their ****. I let them flip a destiny token.

I am not folding again on upcoming Computer checks. A datapad is not enough to do slicing. They are going to need data spikes or slicing tools next time it comes up!

Modder/Cyberneticist, 4y 1g

had 4 int and did dedication int

Remember that a triumph during crafting allows you to choose to decrease the difficulty of a crafting check, PERMANENTLY, for that template, so eventually given a sufficiently (large)amount of time you can drop a template to a simple check. This means that with a good enough mechanic and the eye for detail talent you can roll obscene amounts of advantage on even the most difficult items. The devs have been interviewed on the order 66 podcast and it appears the major limiting factor is time.

If it says that it takew 120 hrs then you need 120 hrs of time in game to do this,Note this isnt 5 days of game time , this is time in game where you wre in your workshop working on the item, this could be an average of only 2-4 hrs of work time per game day you are at base.

So the amount of time is controlled by the GM, but stacking a lot of boost die might not be the best idea, the intention ith crsfting was that the average mechanic can make an equivalrnt item for half the cost, depending on the roll it could be a little better or a little worse than what you could buy for double the cost. If you got lucky and rolled 2 triumphs, you could make somethung significantly better, example if you were making padded armor (250 credits) and rolled 2 success you could give it either the superior quslity or cortosis for free, not bad for 250 credits.

Allowing lots of boost significantly increases the likelihood of advantage so as a gm id have a good look at what coukd stack.

I would suggest listening to the order 66 podcast episode 74 as it had a question and answer session with the lead devloper of Special Modifications and does a deep dove into the book where they talk through a lot of things. Although thisntopic is not covered

As some others have said, this game is supposed to be played fast, loose, and focused on the story instead of statistics.

If you want a +1 screwdriver and a +2 hammer and a +3 hacksaw, go play D&D. But otherwise I'm not going to itemize your workshop and give you modifiers for every little thing. Do you have the right tools for the job? That's a bonus. Do you have an assistant? That's another bonus.

Bro, do you even munchkin?

You are wanting to use three over the top tool kits to make one thing? I can see how making things takes more than one tool to do a job, but after I read the mech section, I don't really think that is what the developers had in mind; using multiple tool kits to stack your bonuses up. One example was a Bacta Tank...a freaking Bacta Tank... Those are huge and expensive. Are you now going to use a super med scanner and beefed up medbacks and get four boost, 3 successes and three Advatages before you even roll? That doesn't sound right to me.

You said you had a jigsaw and a welder and a printer, and want to stack those bonuses for using all three things to make one item? I don't see how using three separate tools can really keep passing along the bonuses when you only use one at a time and for a short while. Can you give a narrative how your super bandsaw can really pass along a bonus Success and a bonus Advantage?

I cut the wood so super good, it is flawless, I get a 1S and a 1A automatically!! Seems kind of lame to me bro.

I understand that in these games we want to create the best possible characters, but it seems to me you are on the other end of the spectrum and min maxing your character and her tools to make the epic Scotty type of character. A 5 in Intel, really? My GM probably wouldn't let us have a one sided character like that, and I'm ok with that.

You said your other GMs allow you to stack your tool bonuses? Is that all you play is the super mechanic in all your games? I know this sounds dickish, not intending to really, but really, you just play the same character over and over?

My GM is really liberal with the boost and setback dice, but no one in our group pushes the boundaries with crazy gear either. As a player, I would not enjoy seeing a fellow player try this though, and "debate" with our GM. When our GM says/rules X", we move on. We don't question her, or badger her.

Again, not trying to sound mean or belittling here. As my final thought, just because the rules don't say that you "can't" does not inherently mean that you can...or should.

Modder/Cyberneticist, 4y 1g

had 4 int and did dedication int

Droid Tech has the additional ranks of Eye for Detail and combined with Improved Speaks Binary, that's 3 Boost dice with the droid assisting and your tool kit. Flip a DP and roll 5 yellows. I think that's pretty sufficient for some pretty outstanding results potentially. It's not supposed to make you a guaranteed high end weapon factory, we are rolling dice so chance is part of the game.

As some others have said, this game is supposed to be played fast, loose, and focused on the story instead of statistics.

If you want a +1 screwdriver and a +2 hammer and a +3 hacksaw, go play D&D. But otherwise I'm not going to itemize your workshop and give you modifiers for every little thing. Do you have the right tools for the job? That's a bonus. Do you have an assistant? That's another bonus.

so do you allow any items to modify rolls as the descriptions say? Scanner goggles, medpacks, bacta tanks.. etc?