So I am in no ways the inventor of this style of list, that goes to Clontrooper5 of course but I do think I have learned enough about it and made it my own style that I can write a somewhat long winded guide on what the actual style is, how to use it, and why it is so effective. Many people refer to it as DeMSU, Demolisher + Multiple small units. It also has been getting a little of a reputation as being Cheese, overpowered, and the dreaded, netlist that takes no skill. I think these are all way overblown and while a fully decked out Demolisher titled gladiator is a force to be feared I don't think it is the end all be all overpowered wins all tournaments list. It has its weaknesses and if you don't know how to utilize the very fragile Raiders it won't matter.

First I want to go into the concepts of the list and what makes it so powerful, then I will give my defense of the Clonisher(DeMSU) list.

The Fleet:

I have come around to my current list below after lots of testing. It has 2 Gladiators that pack the most punch, Demo kitted out in what has been dubbed the Clonisher build with OE, ET, Expanded Launchers, Intel, and Demo of course. I also run a 2nd Gladiator with APT's, Intel, OE, and ET's. I have 3 Raiders, 2 with OE and APTs. I finish it off with 4 basic TIEs. Objectives are key and I may add later how to approach each but a lot has to do with your opponents fleet. A skilled player will give you nothing but bad options so you have to figure out which one will hurt you the least and could actually let you score some extra points. I will say in general never never never select superior positions. It is terrible for this list in the hands of a skilled player, absolutely terrible.

I almost always lead off with Screed in his generic Raider at the bottom middle of my deployment zone. Typically he is set to speed 1. This lets me see where they will deploy first and to what side of the board. After that its either my 4 ties dropping down or another Raider if I need to wait and see where a heavy bomber force is being deployed. I then have the flexibility to try and get a picture of where my opponent will be going and how to cut them off. I almost always deploy Demo last as it's critical Demo is in a good spot that I will explain below. The best way I can explain it is that Demo is the dagger that strikes out and deals a critical blow. The Raiders are the bed of nails that the wounded enemy falls into after being crippled by Demo. I want to explain each ship and its role.

Demo:

She is the big hitter obviously and gives you the punch in this list. What she is not is some uber imbalanced ship that will let you win most of your games. If you don't position her in the right spot you will waste it. If you move her out too far ahead or move it out too slow you will waste it. Every game I am thinking, do I want Demo to cut off a ship, or do I want to flank one and then come up behind the enemy line/formation. You have to look at your opponents fleet and early deployments to anticipate if they are going to try and fly around you, fly through you, or just sit and turtle. Once you devise your plan you need to anticipate if you will make your first strike at the end of turn 1, turn 2, or even turn 3. This gives you the insight on your opening commands. Navigate commands are your friend and when in doubt just do a navigate command with Demo. I typically deploy at speed 2 and my first 2 commands are navigates. However if I am going up against an ISD or an MC80 I may put a concentrate fire command as my 2nd as you will need the extra dice to have a low chance to take them out in just 3 attacks. At the same time its critical you get your opening speed right so you arrive where you want to be and don't fly off the board or into a powerful side arc the next turn. The big thing is, pick your target, plan where you will intercept the target, and also plan your escape path.

2nd Gladiator and the 2 Killer Raiders:

If Demo is the dagger slashing out, the other 3 ships are the nails. The key with these ships is to cut off any escape and finish off any other ships. The key with these ships is they will often be facing some very bad arcs. How do you get a 4 hit point Raider with only 2 shields to survive an ISD or MC80's worst arcs? Well don't ever let them shoot at you other than at long range, and only because after that shot they will be moving into your close range. What I think is the most critical part about this list is making your opponent move into you. I pretty much spam navigates on my Raiders and take a token the opening round after deploying at speed 2. This lets me slow down or speed up and make sure I don't ever move a Raider into medium or close range of a big arc before it can shoot. I repeat never move into medium or closer range with a Raider unless it will shoot before the enemy ship. You must get used to measuring your opponents ranges and then move your Raider into a position where the enemy ship will be forced to move into your optimal firing range after they shoot at your Raider. If you do this wrong you will have a dead Raider and your big activation advantage will crumble and the list can start to fall apart. Lastly I can't stress enough how important it is to double arc. Basic I know but getting off that extra APT hit is crucial and those Raiders hit like a truck with a concentrate fire command double arced. Dishing out 6 damage from the front and 3 from the side with 2 additional face up hits to the hull is killer.

Screed's Raider

I use Screed in just a generic Raider to try and save points. Basically he is there to activate first often and stay behind the lines in a spot where the enemy is likely to try and break through. Even without OE and APT's he can still dish out some damage to a wounded ship who has managed to get past the wall in front. Be very careful to keep him out of harms way as a key part of the strategy is being able to aggressively re-roll black dice. Having the assurance of being able to turn 2 blanks into at least a hit/crit is extremely powerful and lets you get 8-11 damage rolls out of Demo.

Fighter Screen

(We who are about to die salute you!)

The generic TIE fighters in this list are here for a very basic reason. They are here to die. There main role is to just tie up enemy bombers for a turn or 2 preventing shots on Demo so it can get in the critical goal. Every time an enemy fighter shoots at your TIE that is a victory for you. Deploy them so they are able to assist and screen for Demo. Try to spread them out so no one intel ship can make them all heavy. I don't think my TIE pilots know how to land as they typically never make it out of my games alive.

Now that I have explained some basic aspects of the fleet I want to give my defense of the Clonisher and by that I mean it is not a one trick pony and actually takes a large amount of skill to play correctly.

The Defense.

This is a very very fragile list. You are using 5 small based ships with 4 or 5 hull, at most 3 shield with minimum defensive options, and all of your ships only kill at close range....I repeat close range. This is what makes this list take skill and is very less forgiving. You have to anticipate your opponents movements and position to be in the right place at the right time. If you fail to do that you will have Raiders blowing up and your opponent flying away into the sunset. Flying two ISD's or Rieeken with aces gives you a lot more mistake room compared to a DeMSU. This is the ultimate boom or bust type of list. That being said that is what makes this list so fun. To me this list rewards you for anticipating your opponents move and punishes you for making mistakes. I had an opponent this past weekend actually ask me "Do you ever feel cheep running Raiders?". I promptly replied "Nope". It is a play style that takes the fight to the enemy and puts lots of pressure on both players. I don't think there are any cheep strategies in this game as each has its strengths and weaknesses and ultimately the player who played better typically wins.

Comments on Counters:

A lot has been made of Rieeken and he is a good counter to some of the aspects of the fleet. What Rieeken takes away is the ability to activate last then activate first and destroy a ship removing it from the board. This renders the TRIPLE TAP strategy mute as the ship is still around to shoot, still around to block. When you combine this with an MC80 that is already hard to take out with a triple tap your Demo will often be toast at close range to an MC80's side arc. Goodbye 98 points! You can't play against Rieeken the same way as you would any other Admiral.

First if you are playing against Rieeken then you really don't need to be second player. If you have the choice often it is in your advantage to just be 2nd player and make them pic from your objectives. Why p lay into their hand and pick a crappy objective. Don't be locked into having to play first player and thinking if you cant activate last and attack first you are doomed! You still have one big advantage that you have a ship that can move then shoot. Going second gives you even more activations after they are done activating. Against a 2 or 3 ship list that is huge. Even against a 5 ship Rieeken list you will still get last activation letting you use Demo to move up and kill something after it has activated. In the AAR below I faced a 5 ships TRC 90 list with Rieeken. Demo can one shot TRC-90's pretty easy so I chose to go 2nd giving me last activation.

One Rieeken list that you still need to go first against is a toilet bowl swirling list that flies around the board edges using rebel aces to bomb you. You still need to go first in order to catch up with the rear ship with Demo and/or use your other ships to block the conga line. It's key you use your 2nd Gladiator and other Raiders to cut off escape on the side of the board and also cut off escape to the middle if they dive south. Their fighters can't defend the top of the line and the rear at the same time. Use Demo to chase, others to block.

One effective way to go at this list is to Speed up and charge right at it. Basically, force the person using it to make hard decisions. Activate Demo first, lose 2 Raiders to an MC30 or ISD. If you try to slow roll this list you will likely get crushed. That being said if you see your opponent deploy at speed 3 and charging right into you plan ahead and slow your Raiders to speed 1 opening turn. Let them dash out and overextend for Demo to take advantage. an Ozzel list or someone banking Nav commands and tokens could make this difficult on the counter to that.

Against a list that has more activations than you changes your strategy. That is why going 2nd can be a good thing providing they are not also a DeMSU. Prioritize taking out one of their small ships with Demo to even the activation advantage. I have yet to play a mirror match so I can't speak to this but my guess is deploy with Demo in the rear and make sure everyone has a flanking support.

Maybe it was that comment made by someone this weekend that made me want to even right this overblown rambling post but hopefully 1 or 2 people will find this useful.

Fighter Screen

We had the Arizona Regional at Imperial Outpost in North Phoenix. It is a really good store with lots of space and they do a great job of hosting us with lunch provided from Boston market + they had a winter and a spring kit they added to the prize pool. For whatever reason the Phoenix area is dominated by X-Wing and we have had a tough time getting a lot of Armada players to come out. Several players that made the prior 4 store championships didn't even bother showing for the Regional which was a big disappointment but either way the 10 we had all had a great time.

I have been debating for a while if I would use my regional bye or just play the first round. After a lot of consideration I decided to roll the dice and play the first round in hope of getting better than a 8-2 129 MOV win. I figure the goal is to get the most amount of points and I want 3 games of Armada so lets battle.

A quick side note that we had a diverse set of fleets. Rieeken was the rebel admiral of choice with 4 of the 10 players running him. 3 were 2 ship + rebel aces variety and the other was a very interesting 5 TRC90's plus rebel aces list. We had 1 Mon Mothma 3 TRC90's + 2 MC30T's. The Imperial lists were my own with Screed, 1 Screed with 2 Glad's + ISD1, A Motti with an ISD, VSD, and fighters, 1 Tarkin with 3 Glads + a Fireball and the most interesting was 3 VSD's with tractor beams and 8 YT-666's.

My own list is one I have been tinkering with for a while. I got into Armada in December of last year and I favor a more aggressive, come at you fleet and prefer the capital ships over heavy fighters. I saw Clon's fleet dominate the World Cup Tournament and it was a style of play I love. I adapted portions of it for my own fleet and have ran several variations over the past couple of tournaments. Everyone knows the basic ideas but the key is learning how to fly it.

My List:

Points: 386/400

Commander: Admiral Screed

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Minefields

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)
Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Intel Officer ( 7 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
[ flagship ] Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Admiral Screed ( 26 points)
4 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 32 points)

I personally like the flexibility of 2 Glads with Engine Tech's. They give me great range to be able to jump out in front and block conga lines and also let me use the last/first activation advantage. I like the 4 TIEs as they give me just enough time to delay heavy fighters and the extra 2 deployments usually let me place Demo last.

The Games

F inally to the Games! 4 of the 10 people used Bye's and I was teamed up against a very nice player named Adam. Adam had played some Armada but this was his first tournament. He was running an ISD1 with Screed, Avenger, 2 Glad's with Insidious and Demolisher and 3 Tie Interceptors and Dengar. I chose first player and picked Advanced Gunnery from his objectives. He already had Gunnery Teams on his ISD so he used Demo for the objective and I chose Screed's Raider for mine.

(I already activated one of my raiders moving it forward next to the Debri field) We deployed across from each other. I had Demo (Orange/Grey) on my left flank ready to make its run on the ISD when it moved it. I noticed he deployed at speed 3 so I could let it come in to me. He had Insidious and Demolisher off to the right but I knew they would be delayed in catching up and wouldn't be able to save the ISD. I had 1 raider and my other Glad to intercept and prevent them from getting behind my line.

Turn 2

I realized turn 2 that I didn't need to run out Demo and his ISD would come to me. I was more concerned about making sure his Demo didn't break through my line so I moved my 2nd Glad up in a double arc position to activate first the 3rd round and take it out. My Demo on the left flank moved up into the side arc of the ISD and put some good damage on it and I moved 1 raider close to the ISD to be the sacrifice.

Turn 3

At the start of round 3 I activated my right Glad and took out Demo. I managed to move forward and just get out of close range to Insidious and keeping a shot away from my rear arc. He activated his ISD and unloaded on my raider blocking him but due to no accuracies being rolled the Raider survived on 1 hull. My raider then activated having double arced the ISD and deleted it with some big rolls. His Insidious had no good shots and was forced to move right into range of my raider with 1 hull.

Turn 4:

My raider finished off Insidious and that was game. I lost 2 TIEs and the final score was something around 456-16. Adam was a very nice guy and it was bad luck for him to have drawn me in the first round. My gamble did pay off as I was now in first place with no other playing scoring above an 8-2. I was put into the pool of 6 players at 8-2 or better.

Round 2

I got drawn to play against Sam who had flown in from California to attend our Regional. He was rocking 3 Glad's loaded out with OE, APT's and Engine Tech's with Demo and Tarkin. He had Vader, 4 Firespray's Rymer, and 2 Jumpmasters. I chose first player and selected Hyperspace assault from his objectives. He placed Demo alone aside and deployed per below on the left side with the tokens all in between us.

Turn 1:

I knew I needed to go slow on this one moving up and keeping good arcs on his tokens to give him no good options on where to deploy Demo. I moved my 2 glads out with the fighter escort and positioned my raiders to move in behind to cover the rear.

Turn 2:

At the start of turn 2 he chose not to deploy Demo. He lowered Tarkin's Glad on the left to speed 0 and Demo was just out of range to make a 4 speed assault so I chose to keep demo back. He moved his left jumpmaster forward and tied up my ties and then proceeded to make a bombing run with Rymer and some of the Firesprays. He was rolling pretty good and most of Demo's front shields were gone. I noticed I had an opportunity to move my 2nd Gladiator forward and get just outside of close range to his right Glad letting it move into range of my Glad so I moved it forward. This let me keep Demo back to still keep a good arc on one of the tokens and move up my raiders to cover the others.

Turn 3:

So I forgot to take a picture right as he deployed his Demo just to the right of my Demolisher pointed right at my ship. He had a very small area to deploy and gave my center raider a double arc shot on the rear of his Demo. I activated my Raider and got off some good rolls and 2 APT's doomed his Demo and it blew up without getting to fire a shot. He now had no good options and had to move his right Glad off to the right but still within range of my Glad and my right Raider so it met its demise. I moved Demo up to get off shots on Tarkin's Glad before she blew up to his Fireball.

Turn 4:

I just had close range on my Glad and activated killing Tarkins Glad sealing the game. His fireball was unable to finish off any Raiders so I secured something around a 300 point MOV and a 9-1.

I was in first with 19 points, Jesse managed to secure a 10-0 and was now sitting at 18 points and John Grasser was at 17 points.

Round 3:

Jesse was running a very interesting Rieeken list with 5 CR90's, 4 with TRC's and Janaies Light. He also was running 6 sqauads with Han, Dutch, Wedge, Tycho, Jan, and Dash. He had a 12 point bid so I got to choose if I would be first or 2nd player. I had practiced going 2nd with this list quite a bit so I was comfortable giving up first player advantage and making the Rieeken player pick from my objectives so I chose 2nd Player. He picked minefields and I had the plan. I setup the mines to basically force him to funnel into my ships and leave him with no options of escape.

Turn 1:

He deployed going to the left with all 4 of his CR90's going speed 3. Rieeken was going to be a spectator and fly around the mine field off to the right. I deployed so I could cut off any run to the right or a dive to the left. I had 1 Raider on my left flank and then Demo that you can't see in this picture. He increased speed on all 4 of his TRC-90's and dove down to double arc my ships and make a run to the left next to the Minefield. I moved my ships to intercept and realized I had just enough space to increase Demo to speed 3 and engine tech to get off a shot at his leftmost ship.

I moved up Demo and get off a hot roll of 10 damage to blow up his right CR-90 at the end of round 1. I knew I had him in a trap as I now had 2 extra activations after he was done and his ships were going speed 4 and my ships were in a great position to sit back and let them move into short range.

Turn 2:

He activated his top left CR-90 first and was just missing a double arc on my Demo unfortunately for him so it did minimal damage and was forced to move forward within short range of my 2nd Glad waiting below. I then activated Demo and moved along side of his top right CR-90 and Zombiefied it up with Demo's attack. It then activated doing minimal damage and moved forward. His last TRC-90 activated and did a little damage to my right raider but was also forced to move forward within close range of my raider. I activated my ships and finished off both of his CR-90's that had moved within close range.

(3 Zombie TRC-90's) His squads did some damage and killed my fighters but it wasn't enough to put serious hurt on any of my ships.

Turn 3:

Now the race was on to trap Rieeken in the right corner.

My Raiders chewed up his squads and he made a run with them. I proceeded to race around the corner but we chose to call the game and end it there. I secured an 8-2 around 200 or so MOV giving me the Regional win.

All in all with some nice luck and some good matchups I was able to take home the Regional. John Grasser got 2nd place and since he was already committed to Nationals I handed down the bye to him. He was running 2 AF's with Rieeken and Rebel Aces and I would of liked to have gotten a chance to play him as this was his 4th Regional he has been to I believe. We had a good time and Imperial Outpost was a great host.

I'll post above some more insight into the strategy used with this list as its far more than just Raiders and Demo. You have to run this list right or it just gets blown up quite easily if you make mistakes. Hopefully a couple of people will read it haha.

Great read! I had also planned on coming to Arizona regionals from CA but my friends wife scheduled a surprise 30th birthday for him that I was forbidden to my miss by my own ball and chain. Sounds like it was a blast, and I totally missed out. Next time, hopefully.

While I do love the 2nd Glad, our area has been going a minimum 23 bid at least for this type of list.

How is winning regionals a defence of the idea that this list is overpowered?

(its not overpowered, but the question stands...)

Good post!

thats basically how i play it so good job

also congrats on your win!

How is winning regionals a defence of the idea that this list is overpowered?

(its not overpowered, but the question stands...)

because i came in the bottom 4 at my regional with 2x the people in it...

How is winning regionals a defence of the idea that this list is overpowered?

(its not overpowered, but the question stands...)

because i came in the bottom 4 at my regional with 2x the people in it...

Now thats a defence right there!

How is winning regionals a defence of the idea that this list is overpowered?

(its not overpowered, but the question stands...)

Are people saying it's overpowered?

While I do love the 2nd Glad, our area has been going a minimum 23 bid at least for this type of list.

True some areas have rather high bids but I decided I rather keep my bid reasonable (14 is now considered reasonable) and have a plan for going 2nd. I chose objectives that would give me a plan as 2nd player.

If they pick Most Wanted I would designate their Demo as the Most Wanted and all of my flanking Raiders would get an additional die at her. I would designate Screed is my Most Wanted tucked behind the lines. Dive Demo in and maybe you take out my Demo but I will have vengeance for twice the points.

Contested Outpost was there so I can slow roll staying tight on the station forcing them to come to me while I get points.

As I showed in my Game 3 of the regional when minefields was selected by an opponent running a high activation fleet like mine I setup the minefields to cut off half of the map limited the angles they can come at me and better trap them.

I think this list gets blasted as you have to be first player, if you don't get first player you will lose etc.. I was trying to show that if you have a plan for going second with your objectives you can still easily win.

PS There were 2 Rieeken lists using 2 capitals and rebel aces with over 20 point bids but they wanted to bid for first. Against their fleets I would have preferred to go first anyway since they want to fly around the edges.

How is winning regionals a defence of the idea that this list is overpowered?

(its not overpowered, but the question stands...)

I know that sounds weird but I meant more that it is overpowered hence, anyone can win with it. It has been a very popular style list per Schmitty's compiled data yet it is not dominating as much as I would expect an overpowered list to do. Motti and Rhymer as still having more success in all and Rieeken is the star on the Rebel side. I was mainly showing that to get the best out of the list you need to be able to use it right, it has high learning curve, and you can also win going second with it.

I am curious for Clon's full AAR but I know he said he had some really bad dice rolls with the Triple Tap not taking out medium based ships like usual and that flying it on the tabletop was a little different compared to Vassal. I'm sure it's something he would have corrected with more tabletop games under his belt but it shows that you need real world practice maneuvering those Raiders around to not get them killed easily.

Good post!

thats basically how i play it so good job

also congrats on your win!

Thank you Clon, You're articles on threat radius and making sure you have coverage with your firing arcs really helped me grasp how to maneuver my fleet as well.

I tried to do the Empire proud!

.

Good post!

thats basically how i play it so good job

also congrats on your win!

Thank you Clon, You're articles on threat radius and making sure you have coverage with your firing arcs really helped me grasp how to maneuver my fleet as well.

I tried to do the Empire proud!

Also I wouldn't expect much of an AAR, I was really bummed I did so bad and lost the will lol

While I do love the 2nd Glad, our area has been going a minimum 23 bid at least for this type of list.

True some areas have rather high bids but I decided I rather keep my bid reasonable (14 is now considered reasonable) and have a plan for going 2nd. I chose objectives that would give me a plan as 2nd player.

If they pick Most Wanted I would designate their Demo as the Most Wanted and all of my flanking Raiders would get an additional die at her. I would designate Screed is my Most Wanted tucked behind the lines. Dive Demo in and maybe you take out my Demo but I will have vengeance for twice the points.

Contested Outpost was there so I can slow roll staying tight on the station forcing them to come to me while I get points.

As I showed in my Game 3 of the regional when minefields was selected by an opponent running a high activation fleet like mine I setup the minefields to cut off half of the map limited the angles they can come at me and better trap them.

I think this list gets blasted as you have to be first player, if you don't get first player you will lose etc.. I was trying to show that if you have a plan for going second with your objectives you can still easily win.

PS There were 2 Rieeken lists using 2 capitals and rebel aces with over 20 point bids but they wanted to bid for first. Against their fleets I would have preferred to go first anyway since they want to fly around the edges.

Mm. thanks for the thoughts.

I've played against it outbidding it for first and the Demolisher doesn't hit nearly as hard. The objectives imo don't bother me that much, as I just go and kill off as many Raiders as I can while avoiding letting him easily set up a 2nd player Demo tap.

Killing Raiders is great cuz they really drop the power of the list if Demolisher is stymied, and after killing 2 the activation advantage is totally gone.

Also, since we are both bidding at least 14+ points, the first 14 points are totally cancelled in value.

.

Good post!

thats basically how i play it so good job

also congrats on your win!

Thank you Clon, You're articles on threat radius and making sure you have coverage with your firing arcs really helped me grasp how to maneuver my fleet as well.

I tried to do the Empire proud!

Good! That was created as a result of my clonisher experience so it's cool that it help you out

Also I wouldn't expect much of an AAR, I was really bummed I did so bad and lost the will lol

Yeah I could see how you wouldn't be motivated to do an AAR after that. You will have your vengeance soon enough I am sure!

Mm. thanks for the thoughts.

I've played against it outbidding it for first and the Demolisher doesn't hit nearly as hard. The objectives imo don't bother me that much, as I just go and kill off as many Raiders as I can while avoiding letting him easily set up a 2nd player Demo tap.

Killing Raiders is great cuz they really drop the power of the list if Demolisher is stymied, and after killing 2 the activation advantage is totally gone.

Also, since we are both bidding at least 14+ points, the first 14 points are totally cancelled in value.

I see your points but depending on the player they will try to prevent that as well so it will come down to execution. One thing to keep in mind is this list has 7 deployments and when going 2nd that would mean you need 8 deployments to get last deployment. Demo will likely be deployed somewhere where it can do some damage. Against small based ships one close range attack dealing 8 or more damage is all you need. Also Unless you have 6 activations you won't be activating last either.

A few more thoughts about playing against this list that I have seen piecemeal or incompletely scattered throughout the thread:

• More deployments is a good strategy, but another equally good strategy is a list that is somewhat deployment agnostic, by which I mean you don't initially care where Demolisher is. This can be the CR90 style lists where you are deployed at an angle/sideways and your future path is genuinely unknown, it can be by picking objectives that make it hell for the other guy to deploy this list (Superior Positions most notably).
• More activations is good, especially a lot more activations. I find 6 ships to be a sort of efficient frontier where there are real problems using Demolisher to triple tap or double tap and live.
• Corner Rhymerball (as we have seen at other events) is a real nightmare, because they stall out at speed zero and have two turns of Rhymerpunching before someone gets close, and/or when you get close you blunder into a bomberball with intel.

Other thoughts:

• If you have the right list, murdering the face off the raiders is a viable counter strategy. Demolisher can still do its thing if they are going first, but much less effectively.
• If you know you are playing this list and you know what your fleet wants to do, obstacle placement matters more than usual to create fields Demolisher doesn't want to blitz through easily.
• There are some interesting possibilities with Rebels using Rieekan Alpha (before it attacks) or Beta (after it attacks) striking Demolisher in ways that are unblockable in a single round timeframe, which is where Demolisher needs to do its damage. Consider, for instance, how Demolisher attacks a very tightly packed formation with Yavaris + an appropriate spread of bombers + Jan Ors.

A lot of this comes down to positioning, but good defensive positioning is the counter to this list.

Grats on the win man! Sorry I was so pissed after our game (Sam from game two), I'm just still kicking myself over the side I chose to deploy my demo at. Had I chosen your open side and not allowed myself to get killed by that stinkin raider the game could have gone totally differently. Ultimately I was out flown and the better pilot won the day. Congrats again dude!

First of all, thanks for the write-up. This is one of the most well articulated and well thought-out posts to have graced the forum. I really appreciate the time you took to type all of that up and your thought process on it.

I did find the word choice awkward at a number of points. Does Clonisher (or Demolisher) really need defending? From whom or what? For example, I haven't seen much in the way of claims on the forums that the unit takes no skill, and you did spend a great deal of time in your post articulating fairly well that it does indeed take skill, and that Clon's list does present its perils for razor-sharp play for both sides. I get that you experienced an off-putting and rude comment this weekend, and I'm sorry you had to experience that. In fact, I think the regional data backs up the fact that a decked out Demolisher requires skill. Otherwise, we'd see a lot the Demolisher lists tilting toward higher results than they have. So clearly some of that reflects player skill with the unit. This game definitely punishes bad play, and Demolisher is fragile enough that it just wilts if placed incorrectly.

I think "overpowered" is something that is best illustrated by the frequency by which the Demolisher itself gets taken apart from Clon's list itself. I forget what the current data is in Shmitty's regional thread, but it clearly shows up in a much higher percentage than any ship in the game, and that by itself is telling. That piece of data might not tell us exactly what is up, but it certainly cues us in that something is up. Perhaps a better way of framing it is not in terms of skill, but in terms of "return-on-investment" for points spent, which is meaningful vis-a-vis the other things that one could spend points on. From the looks of it, we've got a number of good upgrades in the next four ships that will affect how Demolisher plays, and it will be interesting to see how the meta plays out in their wake.

Good post and thanks for the read!

The list isn't overpowered and I doubt they will nerf Demo with two Waves announced and one inbound soon.

I'm not trying to take away from your win but from an Imp perspective they look liked the played their games out as bad as the possibly could have.

Game 1. I never understand why Imp lists try to fight DeMSU by flying straight into Screed black dice ships! Picture three makes the problem apparant. You will be taking 3v1 fights. You need to leaverage your ISDs speed and guns, split your forces and hunt Raiders. If I was him i would have split the fleet 2G and 1ISD, that way Demo can only chase one group leaving at least an ISD or Demo to be as aggresive as possible. But he will struggle to do that with 3 ships. 3 Ships is a mistake in this meta. I/G/R/R is far superior to I/G/G. If only for the deployments. You get deployments, more activations and therefore more options. The only three ship lists that do well are bomber lists.

Game 2. If he put one HS token on the far side of the board he could have deployed out of Hyperspace, leaving one ship alive and out of combat, to let his 2 Glads trade with the Rouges to kill the rest of the ships. Instead he places all the tokens close together, deploys point blank of black dice ship, as second player, in a double arc, of his weak arc and instantly dies? He just needed one ship alive somewhere on the board to make mince meat of small ships with the Rouges.

Game 3. Great mine deployment! Hehe he looks like he could have slipped into it along the edge of the board if he felt like running but clearly didn't. That would have been awkward Bloody minefields!

Clearly this result is the fault of an 'overpowered list'. Well played, in all honesty. Text book DeMSU and clearly demonstrating a higher understanding by selecting Second Player in a match when it made sense and going against the conventional 'Demo must go first' wisdom. Nice pictures and write up.

I want to know what happened to the person who tried to run 3 VSD.

I'm still very much a n00b and am trying to make the Wave 1 ships work for me (Amazon was having a sale a few weeks back - got a copy of every wave 1 ship plus what's in the core)

I want to know what happened to the person who tried to run 3 VSD.

As someone with two copies of the core set (and not likely to get many more ships soon), I'm trying to figure out how to make VSDs work tolerably well now that ISDs and MC80s are around.

Absolutely nothing happened hahaha. I played him round three and he cornered for a 5-5

So I'll add a few thoughts of my own to this discussion. First off, a DeMSU does take a lot of maneuvering skill to use correctly, as your raiders are very fragile. This means its not a list everyone can or should use. It's good, but not near unbeatable. I'll also add that Rieekan isn't as much as a counter as some people think. I played two Rieekan lists in my last regional and won 9-1, 8-2. You either target Rieekan first, or if you opponent anticipates this and keeps him father out, you use your activations to get end of round kills, especially on smaller ships like CR90s. Rieekan just calls for even more foresight when maneuvering, since you need to realize that you need a place to move if you go ahead with a Demolisher triple-tap.

I think a much greater threat to DeMSU lists are Rhymer balls; maybe that's just because I don't have as much practice handling them as I should, but in a tournament setting where a 5-5 just won't do you can't afford to let a Rhymer player sit in a corner. Figure out a way to pressure him into a fight, either with concentrating on his Rhymerball or judicious use of your token squadrons to buy you time for an attack run.

I think I've had my fun using a DeMSU for now. The activation shenanigans are great fun, and Demo hitting like a truck is very enjoyable, but I want to start playing to beat the Rhymerball, which seems to be the type of list rising to the top of the meta.

Clonisher eats rhymerballs, well thier carriers

Remember the world cup?

On Vassal .

I mean, how can I trust you ever again, Clon? You took a beautifully painted Clonisher... The Clonisher... and finished where you did...

Tsk tsk tsk...

Of course, I highly, highly doubt I'd have done any better, anyway...

On Vassal .

I mean, how can I trust you ever again, Clon? You took a beautifully painted Clonisher... The Clonisher... and finished where you did...

Tsk tsk tsk...

Of course, I highly, highly doubt I'd have done any better, anyway...

Also I received A Ton of Compliments on Clonisher So I pass on more gratitude to you for your efforts!!

Clonisher eats rhymerballs, well thier carriers

Remember the world cup?

I think we may have to do a game with me using a Rhymerball and you using your patented list...