Spent Accuracy icon dice are removed from your pool. You can spend them before rerolling everything else with Veteran Gunners, but those Accuracy dice are gone for good and do not get rerolled.

That's interesting, confusing and I don't have a clue where it says that in the rules.

Although I like that ruling.

I'm also not sure whether accuracies should be all spent together.

Page 5, RRG, Effect Use and Timing:

• An effect that modifies attack dice can only be resolved during the “Resolve Attacks Effects” step of an attack unless another timing is specified.

• If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

Page 7, RRG, Modifying Dice

Modifying Dice Dice can be modified in the following ways by game effects:

• Reroll: When a die is rerolled, the attacker picks it up and rolls it again. A die can be rerolled multiple times.

• Add: When a die is added, roll an unused die of the appropriate color into the attack pool.

• Change : When a die is changed, rotate it to display the indicated face.

• Spend: When a die or die icon is spent, remove that die from the attack pool.

• Cancel: When a die or die icon is canceled, remove it from the attack pool.

So, let us say we have a Ship with Veteran Gunners, A Concentrate Fire Token and Dial, and Screed...

It throws 2 Reds and 4 Blacks.

It gets ACC, BLANK, BLANK, BLANK, HIT, HIT/CRIT

Straight Away, the player elects to spend the ACC to lock down a Brace Token.

He then decides to add a Red Die with his Concentrate Fire Dial, and promptly rolls a Blank.

This has his Dice pool at BLANK, BLANK , BLANK, BLANK, HIT, HIT/CRIT

He now he decides to throw Veteran Gunners, as he still has some Modifying in his pocket...

Disaster! He only gains one hit, now at BLANK, HIT , BLANK, BLANK, HIT, HIT/CRIT

He picks up the Lone Red Blank, and throws it again with the Concentrate Fire Token ... He Gains an ACC, and promptly spends that to lock down the Redirect of the Enemy.

He then Spends the Blank Black Die to activate Screed, Turning the BLANK into a Hit/Crit

His Final Die Pool is HIT , HIT, HIT/CRIT, HIT/CRIT - and he's locked down 2 Defence tokens..........

Notes:

If there had only been 1 Red Die in the pool, and it rolled an ACC, and then he spent it - he could not add a Red with the Concentrate Fire token at that stage, as he would only be able to add a black.

Is there any once per or "while" restrictions on modify or spending dice?

Is there any once per or "while" restrictions on modify or spending dice?

For Accuracies? No.

Wow, I did not know you could spend accuracies, then re-roll the remaining dice with Vet Gunners. That's crazy.

Interesting how this trend has become about analizing the Modify dice step phase. Understanderable since the core discussion of making Vet. Gunners useful has become finding ways to set aside useful results so as to loose them during the reroll. I would like to undline the core senarios where vet. gunners shine.

1. Pure red dice volleys.

There are few reroll effects which are active at only red range. This short list currently as of the current play includes Vader, CF token, and comboing ship titles Defiance and Devastator with leading shots. Red dice are most in need of rerolls due to their often rubberbanding results.

2. Surprise! It's part of a combo.

With much of the cards of wave 4 still shrouded there is a chance of a possible combo. My own theorycrafting is leaning towards it being with Quad Turbolasers. What if the set die from the card is a acc.? This would lead players to consider rerolling the die for more damage. Though the discussion now goes back to if one of the other rerolls available at red range is stronger in this situation.

tl;dr: With all the deep looking into dice modifying its best to remind vet. gunners provides a much needed reroll at red range. Also you never know there maybe a combo with it lurking in wave 4.

Vykes is right, Vet Gunners is an all or nothing deal. You re-roll them all. Most of us are of quite the opposite opinion to the OP: Vet Gunners is **** near useless.

And yet at the regional game i attend vet gunner and the ability to reroll all would of been nice and changed the game from an 9-1 to a 6-4 and another game from a 10-0 /to a 7-3 or 6-4

Veteran Gunners may find a home on Assault Frigates, who have limited dice manipulation options.

the ability to spend acc before rerolling will make this card similar to Gunner from X-wing. breakthrough the defenses with first salvo and then damage with the second. Definitely to accompany red-dice throwers to fish for acc and damage.

And yet at the regional game i attend vet gunner and the ability to reroll all would of been nice and changed the game from an 9-1 to a 6-4 and another game from a 10-0 /to a 7-3 or 6-4

Ah, the ability to reroll all might have changed the game from a 9-1 to a 6-4. It also may have done absolutely nothing and been a wasted 5 points. That's the thing, we don't know. It's ficklereddice not, X-wing's Accuracy Corrector or the likes, it's just more of a chance.

I'll admit that it may have some utility on an ISD-I or an RAF, but that's not how this thread was framed. And unless my late-night coffee got laced with something and I'm just spouting something ridiculous, we're not going to be seeing Lord Vader commanding Rebel Assault Frigates on the average tabletop. Vet Gunners are not making Vader obsolete, they might find some use in making Ackbar base fleets smirk a bit more, but even then that's at the loss of Gunnery Teams or Flight Controllers in a carrier list. And that's also not to say that Vet-Gunners won't find their way into a Vader-led list. Frankly, I think it compliments it fairly well as 'the first reroll' while Vader can up those odds even more the second time around.

One of my problems is still opportunity cost, this operates differently from a similar yet easier to utilize 'ordnance experts'. The reason for me is that it's exhaustible. Putting aside all the speculation of pre-exhausted crit effects that may or may not be in the cards (har-har), it's a one use per-turn thing. If I wanted to set up some fun shot like a Paragon double arc (which for the record, is the exact situation in which I'd love to use Vet Gunners), I can only use it on one of the two shots. Comparatively, set that against Demolisher or just a typical GSD/RCVT with OE and they can use their best armaments on the front and flanks rather than one or the other. For a point more, it gets less opportunity. Maybe OE was a mistake and it should have been an exhaust, but that's a different discussion.

I don't see how these are in competition with Vader at all?

Rerolling all --even with the "ACC first" trick--is a lot less useful than rerolling failures .

Furthermore, Imperial ships already have a compelling pressure on the Offensive Team slot: ISD/VSDs want Gunnery Team, Glads/Raiders want Ordnance Experts.


Vader still has his niche roles. Some variants of Clonisher run him, as he provides a solid offense boost to the Glads and the Raiders (especially since those Evade tokens become pretty useless when you get in close anyways). Having Ordnance Expert on all five ships would cost 20 points, and you'd need another ~25 to fill your Admiral slot. So Vader comes in about 10pts cheaper than OE + other Admiral. Alternatively, Vader can be an interesting offensive boon in a Triple ISD or Quintuple VSD list, where you simply don't have a lot of points to play with after ships and admiral slot are purchased. Leading Shots cloaks Vader the most, but at least Vader allows for ISDs and VSDs to modify their long range shots.

Why not both?

Vader, VG, Leading Shots. Go for broke for doubles.

Why not both?

Vader, VG, Leading Shots. Go for broke for doubles.

For when you absolutely, positively like to reroll dice.

Hehe, try it on the table! It's fun.

4 Red 4 Blue, Roll, CF Red, VG if non doubles, Vader the non Doubles, Leading Shots the non doubles, TRC a non double.

Considering my bad luck with red dice, the VG may end up being my go-to weapons team. I have actually been known to roll no-one hit only on an Ackbar broadside. This will at least let me live under the illusion that I can be a red dice slinger.

There are niche applications for this card (e.g. those cases where no other form of dice modification is available, with AF2s being the obvious candidate if you aren't taking a gunnery team), but it's not good as a general issue even with the accuracy spending because of a point that was raised earlier by Mr. Wings:

Rerolling everything is worse than rerolling only failures.

Or, put differently, if you roll three red dice and get blank, blank, double hit, you can VG that sucker to get an average expected increase of .25 damage. On the flip side, with Vader, you would pick up only the two blanks and get an average expected increase of 1.5 damage.

VG is good to protect you against absolutely crap rolls, but that's all it really does. Is that worth 5 points? Maybe when you have no other options. If you have anything else (TRC, ordnance experts, leading shots, Vader, etc.) those will all dramatically outperform it.

This thread has taught me that Armada does not have a limit the the number of times a dice can be rerolled it seems. I know X-wing you can only reroll a dice once, but from the comments here, it appears Armada does not have this restriction. Correct?

Correct.

It is explicitly stated in the rules that a Die can be rerolled multiple times.

Page 7, RRG, "Modifying Dice"

Dice can be modified in the following ways by game effects:

• Reroll: When a die is rerolled, the attacker picks it up and rolls it again. A die can be rerolled multiple times.

Generally, its the trigger that stops you from doing it multiple times... A card or effect that is prefaced with the "When" or "While" word, means that it can only occur once for that trigger... This stops you from going:

"I spend a Defence Token and Reroll with Darth Vader... That was Crap. So I spend a Defense Token and reroll with Darth Vader..."

or

"I use Ordnacne Experts to reroll and reroll until I have nothing but HIT/CRIT showing".

Never noticed that part you put in italics. Thank you. Don't know how I missed that. Prob too used to X-wing where it is the excat opposite.

I bought the core set the day it came out and I'm still learning new things about the game.

Last weekend I had 2 Assault Frigates in an Ackbar led list that had a few horrible rolls, where the ability to roll all of the dice would have been great. However, that would have meant not having the gunnery teams, which would have cost me more shots than I needed to re-roll.

Last weekend I had 2 Assault Frigates in an Ackbar led list that had a few horrible rolls, where the ability to roll all of the dice would have been great. However, that would have meant not having the gunnery teams, which would have cost me more shots than I needed to re-roll.

I've been weaning myself off Gunnery Teams on AFMK-IIs...

... partly by sticking nothing there, partly by running MC80s...

One of the problems most are having here is actually coming from gunnery teams. The card needs to be taken down from its high horse and given a second look as it does provide negatives.

Using AFMK-II in wave 4 can pick up spinal armaments firing 3 red dice from any facing. With standardized firing arcs you can feel much better asured in pooring more attacks into a singal target maximizing your damage. The main problem here is the points cost of spinal + vet gunners is most likely more then XI7 + gunnery. Or you could try using Paragon more.

One of the problems most are having here is actually coming from gunnery teams. The card needs to be taken down from its high horse and given a second look as it does provide negatives.

Using AFMK-II in wave 4 can pick up spinal armaments firing 3 red dice from any facing. With standardized firing arcs you can feel much better asured in pooring more attacks into a singal target maximizing your damage. The main problem here is the points cost of spinal + vet gunners is most likely more then XI7 + gunnery. Or you could try using Paragon more.

One of the problems most are having here is actually coming from gunnery teams. The card needs to be taken down from its high horse and given a second look as it does provide negatives.

Using AFMK-II in wave 4 can pick up spinal armaments firing 3 red dice from any facing. With standardized firing arcs you can feel much better asured in pooring more attacks into a singal target maximizing your damage. The main problem here is the points cost of spinal + vet gunners is most likely more then XI7 + gunnery. Or you could try using Paragon more.

even then spinal+ gun teams just means you will ALWAYS have 2 'optimal" shots and if you double arc a ship Great! If not Doesn't matter because your throwing the same dice at someone else anyway. It will be like Turrets in x-wing

This "AF2 Turret" is not going to be a thing, I'm calling it now. How many people are scared of an unmodified AF2 side arc right now? That's all you're getting with this. We're seriously saying that AF2A's are going to suddenly be worth the extra 9 points + [spinal Armaments cost] because they're throwing three reds and a blue in any direction? I don't buy it at all.

Sure, it'll be very very easy to fly this and do okay with it, but it won't be particularly good . AF2 side arcs without XI7, TRC, or Ackbar are just not all that scary.

People are going to try this for a couple of games, remember why you see so few people running naked GT AF2's without any firepower improvements in Wave 2, and move on to putting Spinal Armaments somewhere they'll be useful, like Liberties or VSDs.

One of the problems most are having here is actually coming from gunnery teams. The card needs to be taken down from its high horse and given a second look as it does provide negatives.

Using AFMK-II in wave 4 can pick up spinal armaments firing 3 red dice from any facing. With standardized firing arcs you can feel much better asured in pooring more attacks into a singal target maximizing your damage. The main problem here is the points cost of spinal + vet gunners is most likely more then XI7 + gunnery. Or you could try using Paragon more.

even then spinal+ gun teams just means you will ALWAYS have 2 'optimal" shots and if you double arc a ship Great! If not Doesn't matter because your throwing the same dice at someone else anyway. It will be like Turrets in x-wing

Yes Spinal, Vet Gunners, and Madine mean that you should be able to always double arc things.

One of the problems most are having here is actually coming from gunnery teams. The card needs to be taken down from its high horse and given a second look as it does provide negatives.

Using AFMK-II in wave 4 can pick up spinal armaments firing 3 red dice from any facing. With standardized firing arcs you can feel much better asured in pooring more attacks into a singal target maximizing your damage. The main problem here is the points cost of spinal + vet gunners is most likely more then XI7 + gunnery. Or you could try using Paragon more.

even then spinal+ gun teams just means you will ALWAYS have 2 'optimal" shots and if you double arc a ship Great! If not Doesn't matter because your throwing the same dice at someone else anyway. It will be like Turrets in x-wing

This "AF2 Turret" is not going to be a thing, I'm calling it now. How many people are scared of an unmodified AF2 side arc right now? That's all you're getting with this. We're seriously saying that AF2A's are going to suddenly be worth the extra 9 points + [spinal Armaments cost] because they're throwing three reds and a blue in any direction? I don't buy it at all.

Sure, it'll be very very easy to fly this and do okay with it, but it won't be particularly good . AF2 side arcs without XI7, TRC, or Ackbar are just not all that scary.

People are going to try this for a couple of games, remember why you see so few people running naked GT AF2's without any firepower improvements in Wave 2, and move on to putting Spinal Armaments somewhere they'll be useful, like Liberties or VSDs.

im just saying gun teasm is BETTER with spinal then vet guns

im not saying its GOOD