A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

so there is ambiguity with this maneuver. Note that the do not overlap maneuver tool rule does not stop this maneuver from having two possible sets of positions. So why should it stop all the rest of the maneuvers just because they overlap the tool?

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

Wait, where do you overlap oh with a small ship? Show me at the end of that move WHERE you overlap. Do that and I concede you are right.

ok lemme vassal it later. at work now.

ok my bad, I think I used a wrong expression. I do not mean ambiguity

what I mean is that a 0 1 0 maneuver is possible for small ships using either side. It is not affected by the overlap tool rule. Hence one can notch the tool to either side of the ship and have more options for movement at this maneuver, unlike other maneuvers

I am actually wondering why this is allowed as an exception. if ffg wants to reduce the possible movements for ships then it would also make sense to restrict this exception too? (with another rule or something)

Why would FFG want to restrict the possible moves? They use ship bases for that. If a medium ship wanted to do that move they would need to be going speed 3 and only 1 click at the first node.

It is a restricting move as it is but it adds options that people ignore.

And most ships have fewer or no clicks at the first node the faster they go. Point taken. I rest my case. Thanks a bunch

Bigger ships are a bit harder to do this with but here you go.

How the ships move with the tool is one of the hardest parts of the game for me. It's still not clear what the differences are. If anyone cares to make a thread about it

How the ships move with the tool is one of the hardest parts of the game for me. It's still not clear what the differences are. If anyone cares to make a thread about it

Check my post right above yours. I show the differences of inside movement and outside movement with a small and medium ship. I used vassal because I can overlap and have a maneuver tool to show the diffrences

Here is another very simple example.

1) Corvette, beginning of its move

2) Corvette moving at speed 4 with ruler on its left - - crashes into an asteroid!

3) Corvette moving at speed 4 with ruler on its right - - safely.

4) The end positions overlaying each other to show the difference.

Both of these moves are legal, and they aren't complex. Even with only 1 of the 4 ruler segments bent, it should be obvious that there are two different but legal end positions.

If considering all legal move options isn't part of your usual approach I suggest you practice it. Little differences can really add up.

Here is another very simple example.

1) Corvette, beginning of its move

2) Corvette moving at speed 4 with ruler on its left - - crashes into an asteroid!

3) Corvette moving at speed 4 with ruler on its right - - safely.

4) The end positions overlaying each other to show the difference.

Both of these moves are legal, and they aren't complex. Even with only 1 of the 4 ruler segments bent, it should be obvious that there are two different but legal end positions.

If considering all legal move options isn't part of your usual approach I suggest you practice it. Little differences can really add up.

Good job! I did not think about showing the "Why"

As shown in the 3rd picture, the inside move stops the ship from hitting the asteroids! Giving it an obstruction from that angle and no damage without having to change speed.

When I played Matt on vassal I did a LOT of inside moves. They are my favorite!

OH Matt also shows what 1 click will do. WIth my CR90 I showed what several clicks would look like.

Pertinent Rules:

RRG, Page 11, Ship Movement

• A ship must be placed in its final position on the same side of the maneuver tool on which it started its maneuver.

• A ship cannot overlap the maneuver tool when the ship is placed in its final position. If it would overlap the maneuver tool, reset the ship’s position, insert the maneuver tool into the opposite side of the ship, and move the ship.

• If a ship would not overlap the maneuver tool regardless of which side of the ship the tool is placed on, the ship’s owner can choose which side to place the tool on.

RRG, Page 7, Maneuver Tool

• If the maneuver tool cannot be placed on the play area because it would overlap a ship or squadron, the player should hold the maneuver tool above the play area and estimate the final position of the moving ship

You can choose which side the tool is on, but your ship must not overlap the tool. I dare say this is to stop too tight of a maneuver, especially when double-clicks are involved.

You cannot overlap the tool. It does not state in the maneuver rules that its okay to do it if you are estimating. There is only a single caveat to that:


RRG, Page 8, Overlap:

• If a ship must execute a maneuver at a reduced speed due to overlapping another ship, it is allowed to overlap the maneuver tool in its final position.

Consider this a bit of additional yaw you couldn't normally get, because you were grinding on your opponent who was grinding back, and you kind of ballet'd.

I contend that if you intentionally plot a maneuver that is 'too tight' where you would overlap the tool, but as you have to estimate your position because you cannot place the tool on the table (which should be solved in tournament play by marking ship/squadron positions until you can place the tool on the table) - and place your ship there regardless... (Its easy to tell when its possible or not)... You are Cheating.

If you are performing an otherwise legal maneuver, according to the rules above (Placing ship on same side of tool, not overlapping tool, but have to estimate)... Then that's Perfectly Legal. Just don't abuse the swishiness of the situation and be forgiving to your opponent in all estimated measurements.

The rule is a rule, so it's as important as any of the other rules. In tournament play, it absolutely must be adhered to.

Adhere to it normally. Letting rules go for the sake of a "casual" play just invites sloppy play and it is a very slippery slope that does not end.

Can't wait for Madine with CR90s! I'll be doing inside speed 3 90 degree turns all day!!

Ohhhh the Rediculous maneuvers you could do if you could overlap a tool or switch side. A straight maneuver would no longer be a straight maneuver. Id just play 4 VSD barrel rolling left or right as needed at speed 1. Good luck flanking that.

Adhere to it normally. Letting rules go for the sake of a "casual" play just invites sloppy play and it is a very slippery slope that does not end.

I concur. Once it's clear that adhering to the rules in some circumstances is optional, it can be difficult to come to an actual consensus on what is or isn't fudgeable. Because the unofficial official rules are generally not spoken aloud (because the kind of people who shrug their way through some of the rules aren't generally the kind of people who firmly establish what their alternate ruleset is), this has in my experience usually led to players getting upset with one another at some point down the line when player A thinks he's doing something okay but player B does not.

Hey, you can play in the comfort of your own home with any rules you like. Maybe you play that dice give you shots from a BB gun to the opposing ship, smash it to bits to destroy it! You can play that the entire floor of your living room is the play area! You can play with your toys any way you like, but at that point you are no longer playing Armada.

The problem happens when you take your "living room rules" out into the wild and roll the dice on whether your opponent cares or not (even in casual play).

Movement is probably one of the most fundamental and critical skill vectors in the game, under no circumstances would I (or anyone I play with) let people play them in a game violating the very simple and basic movement tool rules. I can't even conceive of why there would be an issue or a question? Take the time to map out the potential moves if you ignore the basic overlap and side-to-side rules vs. legal moves and you start to see that each ship at each speed will have a tremendous number of end points based on the same start point meaning you may as well "guestimate" where it ends up! For a game where you can miss out on shooting a devastating salvo by a LITTERAL millimeter and a ship can be either destroyed or not from flying off the edge in a difference of a couple of degree angle or a couple of millimeters this is absurd.

Once again, play with your toys however you like. But if you plan on actually playing Armada it is critical to follow fundamental rules!

Speed control and proper movement account for my success with DtO. When those fail, I fail.

Speed control and proper movement account for my success with DtO. When those fail, I fail.

I realize you enjoy plugging Dodonna the Oppressor, but you have to realize this is a stretch.

"Ah yes, my fleets that win tournaments also use the maneuver tool when they move! Let me tell you all about them!"

Speed control and proper movement account for my success with DtO. When those fail, I fail.

I realize you enjoy plugging Dodonna the Oppressor, but you have to realize this is a stretch.

"Ah yes, my fleets that win tournaments also use the maneuver tool when they move! Let me tell you all about them!"

Snipe, what's your point here?

A fast-moving list, like DtO (*twitch/shudder*) relies on good movement. Knowing the ins and outs of movement help in using a list of that type, which needs to dodge the arcs of big heavy-hitting ships like Christmas-tree ISDs.

Why do you have to read that in a negative light for which you have to take Lyr to task?

Speed control and proper movement account for my success with DtO. When those fail, I fail.

I realize you enjoy plugging Dodonna the Oppressor, but you have to realize this is a stretch.

"Ah yes, my fleets that win tournaments also use the maneuver tool when they move! Let me tell you all about them!"

Did you know that 9 out of 10 commands I use are usually Navigate commands? This is due to using the maneuver tool to get the best possible positioning to insure maximum damage or even to escape a bad arc (Imperial front arcs, MC80 side arcs)

You know the best part. I sneak into the most annoying of spots at speed 4 with MC30's! Considering that they were considered bad at one point die to their maneuver template, I think that is an accomplishment.

My game against ArmadaJim at Tacoma regionals came down to me being out of position and conducting bad maneuvers. While some say that my mist relies on Intel Officer, it more relies on getting the best possible position to use TRC's. If I don't maneuver properly, I fail and will take far more damage and losses than the fleet can safely handle.

It's a stretch is all. Demolisher 5 activation fleets also rely heavily on good use of the maneuver tool to avoid the worst of what the enemy could throw at them and they're similarly fragile when they don't time their activations and maneuver well. I just don't see how it's particularly applicable to the subject other than the fact that we're discussing the use of the maneuver tool. If everyone who had a fleet build they were fond of that relies on Navigate commands and good use of the maneuver tool chimed in, this thread would get buried quickly. Hell, my Adepticon-winning fleet also issues Navigate commands about 80%-90% of the time and it meets the same criteria, but... I mean so do all kinds of other fleets. I don't understand why Lyraeus feels his specific build merits special mention.

Well DeMSU has a pretty large advantage. They only need decent positioning. Engine Techs on Demo allow you to rush in and conduct a triple tap. DtO however has to do a similar move but it does not have the capacity to kill a large ship in one go. I need a large hammer and I need to strip a token to be able to speed along the death of a ship so I can focus down the next one.

I am not looking to trade if I do t have ever to. In fact trading is usually bad for me. So positioning is vital. The list is also not that fragile if maneuvered properly. In fact I take opponents Advanced Gunnery objective often because of my ability to give few to little double shots. This means that I stay at long range where it is safe and the jump in and hammer a strong blow in. This requires a lot of maneuvering practice and a feel for where you will end up.

My other point is that my games take about a little over an hour to finish. This leave me with more time to cool my head and prep for the next game mentally. Once again, by maneuvering and understanding all moves and what they will give me.

Just make an Fleet commander or Officer upgrade card, that allows you to place the ship, at the end of its movement, on either side of the tool, regardless of which side the tool was placed, before the move began.

That would make some interesting posibilities.

It's a stretch is all. Demolisher 5 activation fleets also rely heavily on good use of the maneuver tool to avoid the worst of what the enemy could throw at them and they're similarly fragile when they don't time their activations and maneuver well. I just don't see how it's particularly applicable to the subject other than the fact that we're discussing the use of the maneuver tool. If everyone who had a fleet build they were fond of that relies on Navigate commands and good use of the maneuver tool chimed in, this thread would get buried quickly. Hell, my Adepticon-winning fleet also issues Navigate commands about 80%-90% of the time and it meets the same criteria, but... I mean so do all kinds of other fleets. I don't understand why Lyraeus feels his specific build merits special mention.

in what situations do you more frequently find yourself having to make use of this exception/tactic?

I have not practiced with this rule yet since I overlooked it before and wanna get some tips

Ohhh good question Muelmuel!

I use it to sneak into tight spots where I might otherwise be blocked. This is when you use a couple of clicks.

I have also used it to keep my speed up but to stay in a safe range of thinks like ISD's and such.

I have used it to prep my next turn better by moving at speed bit staying in range of 1-2 ships so I don't get overwhelmed.

I have used it to not ram myself becuase an outside maneuver might do that.

Tips on use? Hmmmm. Make sure you are using a navigate most times. If you are not, it is fine but that click at 1 will give more of a difference, like I showed in my picture last page. This is important.

Matt showed in his picture the difference when doing an outside and inside move, the outside move hit the asteroids but the inside move missed. This is important because that can happen a lot!

All fleets require good movement and maneuvering.

People who move their ships, exposing them to the least amount of incoming fire / or exposing them to hazards, win more games, it is pretty elementary.

All fleets require good movement and maneuvering.

People who move their ships, exposing them to the least amount of incoming fire / or exposing them to hazards, win more games, it is pretty elementary.

Correct. It is elementary, yet even while doing so, there are many builds and such that mitigate movement by just decreasing the amount of fire that can be thrown at you (i.e, destroying things, tractor beams, etc). Movement mitigation will become even more relevant once you have the Interdictor.

Still, having a thorough understanding of how to maneuver makes DtO work. Though I learned the skills needed from piloting VSD's, ISD's, and Nebulon's which require more finesse than most other ships.

Speed control and proper movement account for my success with DtO. When those fail, I fail.

I realize you enjoy plugging Dodonna the Oppressor, but you have to realize this is a stretch.

"Ah yes, my fleets that win tournaments also use the maneuver tool when they move! Let me tell you all about them!"

*Fist bump*