So the topic of discussion is page 10 from the LTP:

"The ship's starting position and final position must be on the same side of the maneuver tool. In addition, the maneuver tool cannot be placed in such a way that the ship would overlap the tool when placed in its final position. If the ship would overlap it, the tool must be placed on the other side of the ship's base before it is moved."

As a casual player my group aims to follow all rules, though we have not yet spotted and enforced this one. It is a critically important one as it makes the possible moves for ships more specific.

As a general observation, for a turn, ships can make tighter turns along the inside of the tool, but travel further towards the direction of the turn when along the outside of the tool.

So how strictly have you seen this enforced in competitive play? Does it affect the game significantly?

How should I factor this in my gameplay?

(IMO this is an unnecessarily complicated rule and removing it would allow greater maneuver flexibility for games)

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

This is actually a rule that gets overlooked a LOT! Actually in the 2 regionals I have attended, people have questioned this several times.

Small ships that are going speed 3 to 4 actually get the most benefit from doing this. Though the last click has to be straight when using the inside of the tool. Still if you plot it on a board it will show you 2 different end positions.

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

Take your maneuver tool and do a mock CR90 move. At speed 4 it will be 0, 1, 1 and 0. Plot that on a board with it notched on either side of the ship. Make sure to end on the same side your started on. That is what he is likely talking about (well my interpretation)

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

I meant the latter. Yes in casual anything can be done, but this is a direct violation of this rule, and im looking to play by rules as much as possible

On another note, i also wonder how often this rule has been overlooked by others and how much it is actually enforced in competitions.

Again IMO I think this is a very stumbling and unnecessary rule myself, but ill follow if need be. or maybe petition ffg to errata it

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

I meant the latter. Yes in casual anything can be done, but this is a direct violation of this rule, and im looking to play by rules as much as possible

On another note, i also wonder how often this rule has been overlooked by others and how much it is actually enforced in competitions.

Again IMO I think this is a very stumbling and unnecessary rule myself, but ill follow if need be. or maybe petition ffg to errata it

Wait. . . Why does there need to be an errata? I am confused. It is perfectly legal to use the inside of the tool to move as long as you don't break the 2 guidelines. So you end on the same side and you don't overlap the tool.

No, the rule is necessary and good. It is enforced at every tournament I've been to - you cannot end movement overlapping the tool.

My question on this topic is what happens when you collide with another ship - you go back to a clear notch. If that location forces you to overlap the tool, is it a legitimate move?

I say yes, at least one other player I have engaged with says no. He required me to notch on the other side of the ship, which made life interesting indeed.

I think it's a pretty solid rule set that is strictly followed in competitive play as far as what I've experienced.

No, the rule is necessary and good. It is enforced at every tournament I've been to - you cannot end movement overlapping the tool.

My question on this topic is what happens when you collide with another ship - you go back to a clear notch. If that location forces you to overlap the tool, is it a legitimate move?

I say yes, at least one other player I have engaged with says no. He required me to notch on the other side of the ship, which made life interesting indeed.

They cover this under Overlapping. You are ONLY allowed to overlap the tool if you rammed.

Edit: wow. . . 7,000 posts. . . I need a life.

No, the rule is necessary and good. It is enforced at every tournament I've been to - you cannot end movement overlapping the tool.

My question on this topic is what happens when you collide with another ship - you go back to a clear notch. If that location forces you to overlap the tool, is it a legitimate move?

I say yes, at least one other player I have engaged with says no. He required me to notch on the other side of the ship, which made life interesting indeed.

You're absolutely right. That is the singular exception to when you can overlap the maneuver tool. It's in the rules somewhere, but I don't have them handy.

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

Take your maneuver tool and do a mock CR90 move. At speed 4 it will be 0, 1, 1 and 0. Plot that on a board with it notched on either side of the ship. Make sure to end on the same side your started on. That is what he is likely talking about (well my interpretation)

take two maneuver tools(if u have). click each segment all the way left as much as u can. notch both on a ship base, one on either side of the base. Notice that the final position would be different for each maneuver tool. FFG avoids this by page 10 of LTP, saying u cannot overlap the maneuver tool.

doublepost

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

Take your maneuver tool and do a mock CR90 move. At speed 4 it will be 0, 1, 1 and 0. Plot that on a board with it notched on either side of the ship. Make sure to end on the same side your started on. That is what he is likely talking about (well my interpretation)

take two maneuver tools(if u have). click each segment all the way left as much as u can. notch both on a ship base, one on either side of the base. Notice that the final position would be different for each maneuver tool. FFG avoids this by page 10 of LTP, saying u cannot overlap the maneuver tool.

That is illegal. It is set under Ship Movement in the RRG. I would not allow this in casual play at all. My initial example is legal however

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

Are you saying that (for example) you start the maneuver notched on the ship's right, but then after moving the ship you're notched on the ship's left?

If so that radically alters the movement possibilities of the ships and HUGELY affects the game.

If all you're saying is that you start on the left and stay on the left, but just estimate the final position if you overlap the tool - then that's just flying casual. Wouldn't do it in a tourney but for casual games that's totally fine.

Take your maneuver tool and do a mock CR90 move. At speed 4 it will be 0, 1, 1 and 0. Plot that on a board with it notched on either side of the ship. Make sure to end on the same side your started on. That is what he is likely talking about (well my interpretation)

take two maneuver tools(if u have). click each segment all the way left as much as u can. notch both on a ship base, one on either side of the base. Notice that the final position would be different for each maneuver tool. FFG avoids this by page 10 of LTP, saying u cannot overlap the maneuver tool.

That is illegal. It is set under Ship Movement in the RRG. I would not allow this in casual play at all. My initial example is legal however

hahaha no no im not saying to do this during gameplay, but to test outside ganes. this is just an example to the quotes above about understanding the final positions when trying either side

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

Yeah, it's only a little different, but boy, those movement margins get real thin sometimes.

I had a local player tell me that i couldn't make that maneuver (left side of my Demo curving to the right) because it would overlap the maneuver tool. I tried to explain to him that a small base ship can do this maneuver, and he insisted that it couldn't (I think he was very confused about how the term "overlap" was used in context) I ended up selecting a different maneuver anyway, but I wanted to pick that one just so we could call over a judge (or dictionary) to have overlap explained. The worst part is that I know he TOs Armada for a different store. :/

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

Yeah, it's only a little different, but boy, those movement margins get real thin sometimes.

I had a local player tell me that i couldn't make that maneuver (left side of my Demo curving to the right) because it would overlap the maneuver tool. I tried to explain to him that a small base ship can do this maneuver, and he insisted that it couldn't (I think he was very confused about how the term "overlap" was used in context) I ended up selecting a different maneuver anyway, but I wanted to pick that one just so we could call over a judge (or dictionary) to have overlap explained. The worst part is that I know he TOs Armada for a different store. :/

I explain the steps in that case. I state the guidelines for a ship move which are;

You start and end on the same side,

You don't overlap.

I ask if that makes sense, if not, then on to step 2!

After that I show them that if the end segment is straight that I can fit the small base into that section (hover it over so that you don't accidentally notch in a bad move)

Of they still are not convinced I call the judge becuase there are MANY situations where I want the freedom to move properly.

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

so there is ambiguity with this maneuver. Note that the do not overlap maneuver tool rule does not stop this maneuver from having two possible sets of positions. So why should it stop all the rest of the maneuvers just because they overlap the tool?

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

Wait, where do you overlap oh with a small ship? Show me at the end of that move WHERE you overlap. Do that and I concede you are right.

This rule works exactly as intended. There is no ambiguity whatsoever. Cannot overlap tool. Period.

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

so there is ambiguity with this maneuver. Note that the do not overlap maneuver tool rule does not stop this maneuver from having two possible sets of positions. So why should it stop all the rest of the maneuvers just because they overlap the tool?

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

Wait, where do you overlap oh with a small ship? Show me at the end of that move WHERE you overlap. Do that and I concede you are right.

ok lemme vassal it later. at work now.

I explain the steps in that case. I state the guidelines for a ship move which are;

You start and end on the same side,

You don't overlap.

I ask if that makes sense, if not, then on to step 2!

After that I show them that if the end segment is straight that I can fit the small base into that section (hover it over so that you don't accidentally notch in a bad move)

Of they still are not convinced I call the judge becuase there are MANY situations where I want the freedom to move properly.

Yeah, I tried to explain it to him several times. Like I said, I think that the issue here was an understanding of what overlap meant.

Since I elected to do a different maneuver anyway, I just dropped it. Had I wanted to do that maneuver though, you can bet I wouldn't have hesitated to call the TO.

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

so there is ambiguity with this maneuver. Note that the do not overlap maneuver tool rule does not stop this maneuver from having two possible sets of positions. So why should it stop all the rest of the maneuvers just because they overlap the tool?

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

Wait, where do you overlap oh with a small ship? Show me at the end of that move WHERE you overlap. Do that and I concede you are right.

ok lemme vassal it later. at work now.

what I mean is that a 0 1 0 maneuver is possible for small ships using either side. It is not affected by the overlap tool rule. Hence one can notch the tool to either side of the ship and have more options for movement at this maneuver, unlike other maneuvers

I am actually wondering why this is allowed as an exception. if ffg wants to reduce the possible movements for ships then it would also make sense to restrict this exception too? (with another rule or something)

otherwise if i set the final segment of my maneuver tool straight(that is, yaw at the end equals 0) when maneuvering I actually increase the number of possible positions I could end up in by allowing myself to use either side of the ship base in tool placement

A small ship can make a 0 1 0 maneuver from either side of their base. They won't overlap the maneuver tool because their base is exactly the length of a maneuver tool joint.

It is amazing to use btw. You actually get a different end point which can help one fit into some amazingly tight spaces.

so there is ambiguity with this maneuver. Note that the do not overlap maneuver tool rule does not stop this maneuver from having two possible sets of positions. So why should it stop all the rest of the maneuvers just because they overlap the tool?

btw. im nitpicking at rules, not u. no offenses, i just want to discuss this. fire away

Wait, where do you overlap oh with a small ship? Show me at the end of that move WHERE you overlap. Do that and I concede you are right.

ok lemme vassal it later. at work now.

ok my bad, I think I used a wrong expression. I do not mean ambiguity

what I mean is that a 0 1 0 maneuver is possible for small ships using either side. It is not affected by the overlap tool rule. Hence one can notch the tool to either side of the ship and have more options for movement at this maneuver, unlike other maneuvers

I am actually wondering why this is allowed as an exception. if ffg wants to reduce the possible movements for ships then it would also make sense to restrict this exception too? (with another rule or something)

Why would FFG want to restrict the possible moves? They use ship bases for that. If a medium ship wanted to do that move they would need to be going speed 3 and only 1 click at the first node.

It is a restricting move as it is but it adds options that people ignore.