When Chaos was first presented in the Warhammer world, it was a bit more ephemeral and (consequently to me) more interesting.

Over the years, it's developed more and more it's just being monsters and impossibly large dudes in plate armour.

I have the Chaos book for 2nd edition and there was nothing in it that really convinced me that there was a true pull to Chaos. I guess it's a mater of perspective, but I can't see how any reaonable character would ever be attracted to the lure of Choas. Everybody walks into the game knowing it's bad. Turning to Chaos generally means that you end up getitng random muttations and no real power. All I'm saying is that there is very little lure to the 'dark side'.

Here, FFG has a wonderful chance to amend that. They can give Chaos not just a lure again but find a way to return to the Enemy Within concept that the write into every book, but outside of NPC's, fail to deliver.

With the Fatigue and Stress situation they could create some sort of longer term corruption that could infect characters. They could also just write the books so that Chaos actually gives attractive and subtle bonuses to P.C. in times of need. I could see Chaos Action cards being forcably put into a character's deck. Action cards that tack on like: May be played after a Action card is resolved to add +2 to Normal damage but roll a <P>, on a Chaos Star, you gain a Corruption token or a mutatation. Whatever, the point being, give the players a reason to see/feel the lure of Chaos. They can ignore those cards throughout the entire game, but don't tell me a juicy card like that wouldn't give them pause once or twice.

Thoughts?

I was a bit surprised that there wasn't a deck of "Mutation" or "Corruption" cards in the Core Set, but I'm assuming that's something that will just be introduced at a later time.

That aside, I see the merit in much of what you've said.

I haven't received my box yet and therefore haven't read the rules.

However, couldn't corruption perhaps be introduced along the same lines as insanity?

I was also kinda put down when I found out there are no mutations... But then again there isn't any real "bad"-stuff. Necromancy and chaos magic are missing so I'm willing to bet my money on them coming quite soon as an expansion.

That being said I also think that chaos in WFRP2 lacked any real threath. It was just bad guys doing annoying stuff. I believe that this has more to do with need to avoid heavy topics than interest. The games are intented for younger people too and I've the expression that some discrety is demanded. I still managed to spot some hint about the darker side of Warhammer - beastmen ja greenskins(!) are said to raid farmers to "satisfy their primitive, violent urges"! Which is kinda what I think those Slaaneshian "warbands" are doing...

There's real possibility for corruption too as FFG already made it with Arkham Horror. But as the corebooks indicate that the games should be about "heroic character opposing chaos" I sadly doubt that these things will be left for fans to build.

doc_cthulhu said:

Agree. Even before the core set was released the videos talk about the PC's destined as heroes. I don't think we will see chaos influence for a long time.

nub5 said:

Do I smell a fan project!?

You should check out the 1st edition Realms of Chaos books. Those were totally rocking and awesome for Chaos, with mutation and gift charts, many of which were exceedingly powerful. The problem, was that as you got more and more mutations your chances of turning into a Spawn went up.

Sarim Rune said:

I agree with everything you said except the above statement, i in fact had several of my players fall to the dark side, and the power gain was rediculious in second edition imo the chance of falling into a corrupt chaos spawn (which did very amusingly happen to a chaos characters brother, another player due to miscasts!!)Vs The chaos rewards, magic, careers and alot of the mutations were horrific and put them on a power level well worth the risk!

As for what your statement was about i wholeheartiedly agree, chaos should be alluring, it should offer get rewards at high risk and corupt npc's should be in place to lure the characters in without them realising, for me this is one of the most important aspects of the setting and something i will be sorely dissapointed if not included as a strong and viable option!!

I do also can understand why this is not included in the core set, as it deserves at least one book/expansion to cover half of the possiblities availible, despite FFG saying wfrp is about heros now i cannot see how they could simply remove such an important part of the background, only time will tell i guess but i would be suprised and as mentioned above extremely dissapointed if its not covered properly as this would not be warhammer without it!

It's always been my experience that Chaos is deemed at bad. Not as Star War's the Force 'bad' where it leads to great power, but bad is in nothing ever good comes from it. I've never had a player ever say, "yeah, since me up for an extra arm!"

In general, I think people are predesposed to avoiding abnormality.

In all my games, players fight Chaos like the heroes of light and never, ever view it as a good or potentially helpful thing. Maybe it's just my player base, I dunno. My last game had an Initiate of Sigmar and a Vampire Hunter, so that game was never going to view chaos as anything but pure evil.

I'm going to house rule it, but I hope and pray to the forsaken gods that when FFG publishes the chaos supplement, that they will include some sort of rules to help guide players to the path of Chaos. They can resist it all they want, but I want the path to be there, available at any time. Not unlike the Ravenloft 'power checks' (except based more on corruption of war, rot, sex and magic).

I have found in my games it tends to be the wizards that take the darker route, but this makes sense as what is being a wizard.. controlling vast dangerous random power in fact the very thing that is chaos, and slowly slowly the power takes them away from the sanctuary of there order and the prying eyes of other wizards there minor corruptions go unnoticed, it might start with a minor mutation, an extra set of toes, or maybe it started with a ritual they were developing. The most remembered character was a master celestral wizard who become corrupt, turning to tzeentch to help him recover part of his soul that was stolen in an earlier plot when he was just a journeyman, eventually he was killed by a cabal of hunters sent to track him down, but he had attained much power by this point, having become a fully fledged chaos follower, i think he had a flaming body, poisonious blood extra toes, an extra magic level, a goats head, access to powerful magics (both tzeentch and celestral but using the later i added extra chaos die per magic char he used to show there was danger with such great power) He also went out of his way and on a mission to learn suppress mutation to help him in towns and villages where he went, eventually he had to flee the empire and his cult to the boarderprinces. The rest of the party were darker inclined but nowhere near as evil as him but where to afriad to oppose him, it lend to a very interesting party and campaign that lasted over two years, starting doing good and ending so dark.

That's very cool crimsonsun. =)

For wizard's the mechanics are built in. In fact, in my above campaign, but by total fluke, the Celestial wizard managed to get Marked by a Daemon. She hide it from the group and then fought extremely hard against any corruption. I even gave her an extra die to use when she cast magic, if she wanted, but she never used it. When the rest of the group found it, they decided, instead of burning her, to keep her secret but to find a way to get rid of the Mark.

So yeah...goodie toe shoes in my game...

But in the world, nobody in inviolate. Even priests of Sigmar. But other than the GM doing massive work to manipulate the player or forcing random mutations on the characters, I see no reason why a chaos hater would ever turn to Chaos. however, when you read the background and stories, those who fight evil are those who often fall into evil. When a wizard falls to chaos, that's practically expected. But the best stories are when a priest of Sigmar falls to Chaos. Generally because they have so much more to lose...

Sarim Rune said:

I think alot of it would come down to the players in question, as if they are to good inclined they will never fall to chaos or the darkside, even if given mutations like you mentioned above or if for example they were forced into contact with warpstone, or a multitude of other ways.

As for priests turning i just had an idea, imagine a priests followers falling foul of a hidious disease, the players go on a series of quests finding mythical reagants and healers but these only slow the process not stop it... then the priest is contacted by a unknown agent offering relief from the sickness free of charge, thus starts the spiral decline towards darkness...

crimsonsun said:

If you want to do a storyline with turning priests to Chaos, I would have thought the obvious way to go was to have members of a Chaos Cult infiltrate the religious order as initiates/priests and slowly corrupt their doctrine

But players, who do not want to turn to evil, will murder any evil NPC the moment they figure it all out, or work to unravel the plot and make things right. There is no rule to spread corruption to them slowly, insidiously. There is no way to promote that turning to Chaos is appealing.

The whole, "take care when you're fighting monsters not to become one in the process."

Hence my suggestion to allow a player to do better but take some sort of Corruption point. It's in the hands of the player to accept that, but it shows that the power of Chaos is always there. Always willing to aid them in a time of need...so long as they mark on the dotted line.

My goal would be to at every turn encourage the player to take a darker path. As it stands, it seems only NPC's are stupid enough to form a cult and worship gods that will ultimately destroy them. So there needs to be boons to take that path, that appeal to both the player (rules) and their character (well crafted story).

Even a goody-two-shoes character has his weaker moments every once in a while. They fight tirelessly for some thing or other, yet their efforts just don't seem to make difference. And then some random stranger approaches him, offering crucial help and not asking anything in return. For now...

Or an exposed cultist could try to strike a bargain to fight alongside the character against the forces of evil (who just happen to be worshippers of another Ruinous Power). The classic "enemy of my enemy" thing.

No corruption ever takes root without providing a considerable (and needed) boon first. The dark powers must provide their target with a viable reason to challenge his beliefs. For starters, just a hint of a doubt is enough.

If you want to corrupt your characters, give the Ruinous Powers a hand. Engineer a situation of a dire need, and *then* hint at the possibilities. If nothing else, it should at least be an interesting scene to roleplay.

Ferozstein said:

This is exactly what i was trying to suggest, they never need even meet the NPC in question, it could be letters at first, then if the pc's ignore that or try to hunt them down, perhaps there mentor/family memeber or any character close to the pc's is affected, they either turn to the dark side or lose there nearest and dearest.

That made me think of another interesting plot idea... How about the pc's mentor is a secret worshiper of the chaos gods, and is setting the pc's against his enemies, you could even start throwing in mechanical rewards to the players but not telling them the reason hidden blessings for there performance, and once they started getting used to the power and became throughly corrupt then there master shows his true self. The party may kill him, for the betrayal but his work would be done, the party would be left with two choices accept there fate, or try to fight it always being dogged by those which they wish to be like.

But i do understand your point of having a mechanical system of corrupting players, the benefits were def there in the old system, and in my eyes its VERY important for the way i like to run things they come back, maybe it would be helpful to have a 'rules system' reflecting the slow decline, but it would have to be optional at least as this is not what many people want for there campaign, and i wonder how they would go about introducing such a system. It is currently impossible to tell what is going to be realised for third edition but second edition did cover the benefits well the rewards of chaos were extremely powerful, as were some of the careers so if they cover that with maybe a boost to the roleplay ideas to corrupt your party and some optional mechanics about exposure/corruption i will be more than happy with my investment into third edition.

As a side note i think the same should be covered for those wishing to seek eternal life and undeath via nercromancy and/or vampirism as this should also be a viable option with benefits flaws as in the previous system (the necromancy route was not covered but vampirism was and rewarded very well) It would be nice to see vampire options as well as being able to turn into a liche in the third edition just my thoughts.

In short, just don't hang a big "CHAOS" sign over what you're trying to accomplish. Be subtle. Be patient. Be devious. Like the dark powers themselves.

As for the mechanical side: well, you don't give your soul to the devil just like that, you sell it - and probably for a pretty hefty price. Chaos is like the Dark Side of the Force or the One Ring - evil, yet tempting, always there and offering huge possibilities for those who may need them. The 2nd edition handled that pretty well indeed, and for now I'd suggest just adapting those rules (particularly rewards and careers) to 3rd ed, until we get a proper Chaos supplement. The hardest thing I think would be magic, as the new system works in a completely different way. Perhaps channeling Dhar could add expertise dice to your roll, but with any Sigmar's comets rolled counting as Chaos stars?

The Chaos Gods are apotheoses of biological forces that all living, thinking creatures are subject to.

We all kill to live. We all eventually die and fall to rot. We all have things that we want and enjoy (one thing especially, biologically speaking). We all have the capacity and imperative to change and plot, to arrange the world according to our intelligence.

Whenever you touch upon these things in your life, the Ruinous Powers are there. Khorne was present every time any man killed another. Nurgle lives when flesh deliquesces into maggots and slime. Tzeentch's hand rests on your shoulder every time you use magic, and he hears every shout of "Eureka" when a truly new idea is had or put into practice. And the tome of blessings explicitly says that Slaanesh watches all our private desires, and this is why the priests of Sigmar preach abstinence and frugality: "those addicted to the pleasures of life may find their obsession

The Chaos Gods, At My Table at least, are a magical influence symbolically connected to all these things, and to anyone who kills, dies, wants or changes. Which isn't to say these actions are inherently evil in some way: they are a part of us, and they are what ruins us, and that's just the way the world works. To paraphrase Batman, they proceed from the radiant darkness that exists at the core of our identity.

...Which all is to say, I may start using the tokens from Chaos in the Old World to track these influences on my players. Gain a Khorne token when you kill another person, two if it was avoidable or done in rage. Gain a Tzeentch token every time you learn a new spell, or keep or learn a secret. Remove tokens via contrition, or austerity, or generosity, or anything contrary to the base impulse that netted you the influence. Have more tokens than your willpower, and I can make your character do something sinful at a bad time once per session (or else...take a wound? A stress token? Another chaos marker? It's not fully fleshed out). Have more than your toughness, and you'll begin to itch or throb somewhere dramatically appropriate: the beginning of a mutation. Watch out for long term healing of critical wounds: you may not like what you find under those bandages. Oh, and don't roll any chaos stars.

Again, that's all AMT: the dudes I play with expect a lot of story-gaming stuff, so this kind of thing won't go amiss. I understand that this kind of approach won't be for everybody. And anyway, what's wrong with just playing adventurous folks having adventures? Isn't the risk of permanent gibbering insanity enough?

Ferozstein said:

I don't add expertise dice as that is very powerful, rather the route that I am taking for wizards is this:

• You're in an area with high magical influence: add +1 fortune
• You're in an area corrupted by dhar: add +2 fortune; one chaos star result opens up the "Dark Magic" skill, and all miscast results are doubled (double damage, double duration, increase liklihood of drawing an insanity, etc)
• Once you have Dark Magic Skill you can draw upon dhar to fuel your spell to add +1 fortune to your casting roll. Every time you use Dhar & you roll a chaos star, add a checkmark to your Dark Magic skill. The next time you must resist an insanity, you receive a number of misfortune dice equal to the number of tickmarks. Once you gain a permanent insanity, the tick marks reset.

So it has a subtle increase in power without too negative effect initially, but it grows worse the more you rely on dhar.

Anyway, that's my first take on the subject until something official comes down. It can be pretty easily extended to combat too, in order to draw powerful warriors into the embrace of Chaos as well (i.e. you can add fortune dice by calling on the dark powers, or add a point of damage, etc.)

Sarim Rune said:

There few different types of corrupted or "lured-to-the-Chaos-side" people in the world. First two do not always considere the possibility of mutations. Chaos promises power, but why would you be the one that gains mutations. I mean - for many mutations and ugly marks are just bad side-effects that you didnt want. Old World folk are not as wise as we GM and Players are...

1) Many are lured for different kind of ambition for power, wealth, lust or something similar. Forces of Chaos promise this and people are weak. What ever comes, just give what I want. And so people sell their souls... Some may embraise the touch of Chaos (what ever comes), others not, but they do not considere the side-effects.

2) Many come to contact with the Chaos almost by accident. When they are their weakest, you are easiest to corrupt. Dying from the disease? Well, what if you pray for Nurgle. Might not be most nicest master, but you live? These people probably do not want side-effects, but they will eventually gain them with insanities.

3) And then there are those folk (mostly northern Marauders: Norse, Hung, Kurgan) that just grow to this culture. Chaos and mutations are normal to them. Other fates are the strange and weak... And those side-effects (mutations), well they are just mark of a great warrior blessed by the Gods. Whats wrong with that?

Currently WFRP2 Tome of Corruption is the best book in my opinion. But I do also recommend LIBER CHAOTICA. That is great source to this kind of ideas. But for WFRP3 I'm sure there is going to be huge box about Chaos and mutations.

jackdays said:

These are my thoughts entirely, and im really hoping we see the bumper chaos box set some point in 2010 as it is vitial to my games.

Chaos are not Evil!

You don`t get corrupted or mutated by simple thinking sinful thoughts, or commit evil acts like slaughtering a village. No not at all. Chaos is a tangible force in the world, much like a parasite or a disease. In the old 1st edition of WHRP, you got corrupted and gained mutations, by casting chaotic spells, touching warpstone, using chaos artifacts, or spending time in chaos temples where chaos energy resided. You never got corrupted by doing evil deeds, because simply chaos don`t hold any possession over your souls, that is Morr`s domain!!!

It`s better to percieve Chaos as radiation, that in larger or small doses will affect you. Joining a chaos cult doesn`t corrupt you by the fact of your desicion. But rather the slow exposure to chaos magic and chaos rituals will corrupt you. Even preaching about the chaos gods will not inflict anything serious, other than perhaps a one way ticket to a burning pyre. Almost all chaos cults in the old world posses some ability or artifact that slowly or fast corrupt their initiates.

forbidden and dark knowledge can corrupt your mind, because it will contain residues of chaos magic in it. And demon blood can do the same, (my players always make sure to clean their weapons after a deamon fight).

I don`t agree that moral desicions alone can corrupt a person into becoming a creature of chaos or gain mutations that way. Even in the old warhammer that was never the case. Castle Wittgenstein didn`t become a festering hellhole because of a moraly evil lord, no. It happend because its master was an astronom that happend to come upon a comet crater containing a weird glowing stone, which he brought home.

You should avoid reducing chaos to be just about moral decisions, because Chaos is not a about morality. By taking such a turn you risk telling that by staying on the path of goodness nothing bad will happen to you (in the terms of corruption and mutation), and surly chaos would be reduced in power if it all boils down to moral fibre. Chaos is an unatural force in the world, its not fair, it corrupts whatever it touches. In the same way as tumour or cancer, chaos is neither evil, fair or benign.

Um, no one said that committing evil deeds leads to mutation. What we're talking about is how someone can come around to make the decision to become involved with Chaos powers (which is indeed a moral decision, though a very specific one). That decision alone does not result in physical mutation either, but it's a sign of corruption nonetheless - as there is more than one kind of corruption, not only having tentacles grow from your armpits. What's more, once you take that first step on the road to Chaos you don't really have the chance to go back - you may either stay where you are, or continue and become more and more corrupted, this time in multiple ways.

The baron von Wittgenstein was unfortunate in that he didn't get to make that decision - he randomly stumbled onto a chunk of warpstone, exposing himself to radiation. While it's true that it can happen to anyone unlucky enough, it's hardly as interesting, roleplaying wise, as a conscious choice between taking advantage of Chaos powers (which of course comes with a price) or not.

Ferozstein said:

He he, I think I might have read through this thread too fast, and made to many errors. I am reasured by your correction here. thank you.

I totaly agree that a moral choice that leads you to become involved with chaos, will corrupt you when exposed to its taint. Interestingly enough Dark Heresy do have game rules and mechanism that deal with the more intangible effects of corruption that opposed to mutation is a very tangilbe one. And It is a shame that WHFRP don`t have that same or similar rules when governing corruption. And yes once taken the first steps on the path to Chaos, you are doomed, there is no redemption. once corruption or mutations sets in, you basically change your race to mutant (in the case of mutation).

I agree that a random victim of chaos is not as interesting or much of a roleplaying opportunity as opposed to a conscious choice. An excellent example of a temptation was the Doomstones campaign. although not the best WHFRP adventure written, it clearly shows the temptation of chaos, and the sometimes the clear consequences of using the doomstones. In the party`s possession is those powerful magical stones, that can help the party in a tight situation, But its always a double-edged sword, every time the stones are used, there is a risk of corrupting the user, as well as creating harmful side-effects.

The Doomstones campaign is worth a study for everyone interested in the temptations and powers of chaos. Even though it contain a lot of dungeon crawls (was originally designed for AD&D), it offers an excellent way of introducing chaos tainted artifacts (orginally the stones where made by dwarves).

But be carefully by introducing powerful chaos artifacts to the players, in any group, there is always one player that are willing to take the risk of using such an item. For some the short time investment in power outbalance any long term risk there is connected to obtain power relatively fast. After all the player are unlikely to play his character for 30-40 years. most think they will probably play this character for 1 year or 2, before creating another character.