A RL from today's game with a friend: another ship bumped into a Lambda. During the combat phase Lambda got the "Stunned pilot" crit. The card says:

"After you execute a maneuver, if you are touching another ship or overlapping an obstacle token, suffer 1 damage."

Now, the question is: if Lambda executed the red full stop maneuver, would it count as touching the ship that bumped into it the previous round and thus suffer damage or would executing the maneuver remove the touching status (despite not really moving at all)?

I do not like the ruling -- IMO, "touching" should only be a result of an overlap in the current turn -- but per extensive conversation with Alex Davy, "touching" persists until one of the ships "moves away" ... so the Lambda would take damage.

Thanks for the quick answer. I knew that moving away certainly clears "touching". What I wasn't sure about is whether it isn't enough to just execute a maneuver. Full stop is a maneuver and it is executed, so I thought it could be a rare case when ships in physical contact with each other do not count as touching per game rules. BTW is it in a FAQ somewhere? I'd like to be able to prove it if the same issue arises again at some point in the future...

Not moving carries "touching" forward.

While I completely agree that the Stop maneuver should maintain all touches it is also ruled that being blocked back to your starting position also maintains touching. All of this should be in the FAQ somewhere...

the card actually reads

After you execute a

the card actually reads

After you execute a

maneuver that causes you

to overlap either another

ship or an obstacle token,

suffer 1 damage.

You could almost argue that you are only touching the ship in the next round, not "overlapping" it.

FAQ Text (4.1.1)

Damage suffered from Stunned Pilot is in addition to

any damage suffered from overlapping an obstacle.

If a ship with Stunned Pilot assigned to it executes a

maneuver in which the maneuver template overlaps

a ship or obstacle token, but the ship’s final position

does not overlap a ship or obstacle token, the effect of

Stunned Pilot does not resolve.

You could argue that you are only touching, and you'd be correct because you are still touching after executing a stop manoeuvre that doesn't clear the other ship or an obstacle

FAQ: Touching and Stationary Maneuvers

• If two ships are touching, they remain touching until one of the ships moves (executes a maneuver, decloaks, or performs an action) in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.

So, executing a stop manoeuvre while you have the Stunned Pilot card, you don't get to suffer 1 damage because you're "touching" not "overlapping". The overlap only happens once, and the card says "when you execute a manoeuvre that causes you to overlap...", not "if you are touching..."

I agree with that analysis. As a TO, I'd accept it.

(I still say "touching" should only exist as a result of "overlapping" in the current turn, though. I'm not saying it is that way, only that it would be much, much cleaner, and should be that way.)

The only repercussion that carries over from remaining "touching" is the inability to attack the ship you're still touching. And maybe any ability that requires touching to be active. Other than that, it really has little relevance.

If you perform a manoeuvre each round that causes an overlap that keeps putting you back to the same position, then that's another story.

the card actually reads

After you execute a

maneuver that causes you

to overlap either another

ship or an obstacle token,

suffer 1 damage.

You could almost argue that you are only touching the ship in the next round, not "overlapping" it.

FAQ Text (4.1.1)

Damage suffered from Stunned Pilot is in addition to

any damage suffered from overlapping an obstacle.

If a ship with Stunned Pilot assigned to it executes a

maneuver in which the maneuver template overlaps

a ship or obstacle token, but the ship’s final position

does not overlap a ship or obstacle token, the effect of

Stunned Pilot does not resolve.

You could argue that you are only touching, and you'd be correct because you are still touching after executing a stop manoeuvre that doesn't clear the other ship or an obstacle

FAQ: Touching and Stationary Maneuvers

If a ship begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [0] maneuver (or executes a maneuver that does not move the ship away), the ships are considered touching. Ships that are touching remain touching until either ship moves away (so that the bases are no longer physically adjacent).

Rulebook: Touching

Two ships are touching if one ship overlapped the other ship while executing a maneuver and their bases are touching as a result. A ship cannot attack another ship that it is touching.

• If two ships are touching, they remain touching until one of the ships moves (executes a maneuver, decloaks, or performs an action) in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.

So, executing a stop manoeuvre while you have the Stunned Pilot card, you don't get to suffer 1 damage because you're "touching" not "overlapping". The overlap only happens once, and the card says "when you execute a manoeuvre that causes you to overlap...", not "if you are touching..."

By that definition, Touching can't exist without an overlap having happened. The definition reads that touching implies overlap happened. So a 0 move that maintains your touching status, still implies you've overlapped.

I just had something similar happen last night in a game. I had a YV-666 Slaver with Anti Pursuit Lasers and moved and bumped another YV-666 (Bossk). When it was Bossk's turn, he did a red stop. We ruled that after Bossk did the Red Stop, it triggered APL from my ship. It sounds like we played that correctly then right?

Indeed. Another case when it makes a difference. A rare situation but it does happen nonetheless. In my case it was particularly important as it was a Palp Lambda with only 1 hp remaining. Whether or not it could full stop safely did make quite a difference.

I just had something similar happen last night in a game. I had a YV-666 Slaver with Anti Pursuit Lasers and moved and bumped another YV-666 (Bossk). When it was Bossk's turn, he did a red stop. We ruled that after Bossk did the Red Stop, it triggered APL from my ship. It sounds like we played that correctly then right?

the card actually reads

After you execute a

maneuver that causes you

to overlap either another

ship or an obstacle token,

suffer 1 damage.

You could almost argue that you are only touching the ship in the next round, not "overlapping" it.

FAQ Text (4.1.1)

Damage suffered from Stunned Pilot is in addition to

any damage suffered from overlapping an obstacle.

If a ship with Stunned Pilot assigned to it executes a

maneuver in which the maneuver template overlaps

a ship or obstacle token, but the ship’s final position

does not overlap a ship or obstacle token, the effect of

Stunned Pilot does not resolve.

You could argue that you are only touching, and you'd be correct because you are still touching after executing a stop manoeuvre that doesn't clear the other ship or an obstacle

FAQ: Touching and Stationary Maneuvers

If a ship begins its activation touching another ship and executes a [0] maneuver (or executes a maneuver that does not move the ship away), the ships are considered touching. Ships that are touching remain touching until either ship moves away (so that the bases are no longer physically adjacent).

Rulebook: Touching

Two ships are touching if one ship overlapped the other ship while executing a maneuver and their bases are touching as a result. A ship cannot attack another ship that it is touching.

• If two ships are touching, they remain touching until one of the ships moves (executes a maneuver, decloaks, or performs an action) in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact.

So, executing a stop manoeuvre while you have the Stunned Pilot card, you don't get to suffer 1 damage because you're "touching" not "overlapping". The overlap only happens once, and the card says "when you execute a manoeuvre that causes you to overlap...", not "if you are touching..."

By that definition, Touching can't exist without an overlap having happened. The definition reads that touching implies overlap happened. So a 0 move that maintains your touching status, still implies you've overlapped.

An overlap is defined as one ship's base overlapping another ship's base after a manoeuvre. If the ship performed a stop manoeuvre, it did not overlap the other ship's base, but still maintains the touching status.

Anti pursuit laser shouldn't trigger in that event either, as there's been no overlap, only a maintained touching status.

I can see that. Just kinda confusing about the "touching" portion because in the current FAQ, it says...

Anti-Pursuit Lasers

"The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers only resolves if an enemy ship is touching the ship equipped with AntiPursuit Lasers after executing its maneuver.

The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers does not resolve if only the maneuver template overlaps a ship equipped with Anti-Pursuit Lasers."

I can see that. Just kinda confusing about the "touching" portion because in the current FAQ, it says...

Anti-Pursuit Lasers

"The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers only resolves if an enemy ship is touching the ship equipped with AntiPursuit Lasers after executing its maneuver.

The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers does not resolve if only the maneuver template overlaps a ship equipped with Anti-Pursuit Lasers."

That's a somewhat clunky clarification of the fact that "overlap", between ships, never means anything but the base. Obstacles have an effect when your maneuver template overlaps them, but ship bases don't.

I can see that. Just kinda confusing about the "touching" portion because in the current FAQ, it says...

Anti-Pursuit Lasers

"The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers only resolves if an enemy ship is touching the ship equipped with AntiPursuit Lasers after executing its maneuver.

The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers does not resolve if only the maneuver template overlaps a ship equipped with Anti-Pursuit Lasers."

That's a somewhat clunky clarification of the fact that "overlap", between ships, never means anything but the base. Obstacles have an effect when your maneuver template overlaps them, but ship bases don't.

No it only means that if many ship are on blockade and that you would overlap more then one Ship, you will suffer the Anti Pursuit Lasers effect only if your final valid position still touch the ship with the Anti Pursuit Lasers.

Example:

Ship A, B and C are lined up like this with C having Anti Pursuit Laser.

A-B-C

A do a front maneuver that end up between B and C so it over lap the two ships, but A have to back up in front of B, so it end up not touching C at all and will not suffer the effect.

"The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers only resolves if an enemy ship is touching the ship equipped with AntiPursuit Lasers after executing its maneuver.

The effect of Anti-Pursuit Lasers does not resolve if only the maneuver template overlaps a ship equipped with Anti-Pursuit Lasers."

That's a somewhat clunky clarification of the fact that "overlap", between ships, never means anything but the base. Obstacles have an effect when your maneuver template overlaps them, but ship bases don't.

No it only means that if many ship are on blockade and that you would overlap more then one Ship, you will suffer the Anti Pursuit Lasers effect only if your final valid position still touch the ship with the Anti Pursuit Lasers.

I guess when it comes down to it, No ship can "Overlap" another ship base in its final position...

if a Maneuver would result in a ship base being overlapped, it does meet the requirement to trigger certain cards, BUT the process is actually to not leave the ship base overlapped, instead you "bump" and remain touching (preventing one from shooting a touched ship).

But in essence, an overlap is only a potential result the never reflects the final position of the ship.

as per the text, the maneuver caused you to overlap.... then you brought the ship back along that template until a suitable final resting position is found. That final resting position is no longer an overlap at the commencement of the following round/activation.

I guess when it comes down to it, No ship can "Overlap" another ship base in its final position...

if a Maneuver would result in a ship base being overlapped, it does meet the requirement to trigger certain cards, BUT the process is actually to not leave the ship base overlapped, instead you "bump" and remain touching (preventing one from shooting a touched ship).

But in essence, an overlap is only a potential result the never reflects the final position of the ship.

as per the text, the maneuver caused you to overlap.... then you brought the ship back along that template until a suitable final resting position is found. That final resting position is no longer an overlap at the commencement of the following round/activation.

Correct. An overlap only occurs if you can't put your ship's base down flat on the playing surface because it rests on top of another ship's base. If you can place it flat, but it is touching the other base (a rare occurrence, but it does happen), it is not considered to be "touching" under the rules definition. It's "adjacent", so there are no penalties that apply to it.

Touching can only occur after an overlap, but the status can persist to the following round due to the stop manoeuvre. If there's no template, there's no overlap, therefore no triggers for abilities that require you to overlap.

If you were to try a 1-speed manoeuvre that failed to clear the other ship and brought you back to your starting point, you are still touching, but because your "final position" would have been overlapping another ship, then all the overlap triggers that apply would come into play. You overlapped and are still touching.

Check the difference in the card text on Captain Oicunn and the Dauntless title.

Capt. Oicunn: After executing a manuever, each enemy ship you are touching suffers 1 damage.

Dauntless: After you execute a manuever that causes you to overlap another ship, you may perform 1 free action. Then receive one stress token.

Hypothetically, if the VT-49 overlapped another ship, Captain Oicunn's ability would trigger. If he had the Dauntless title, that would trigger also. If the VT-49 were somehow able to perform a [0] stop manoeuvre in the following round and remain touching, Captain Oicunn's ability would trigger again, but the Dauntless title would not, because he hasn't overlapped again, but he is still touching.

Having your ship remain "touching" from a stop manoeuvre does not automatically mean you overlapped.

Actually, touching can persist in other situations than the stop maneuver. Imagine two ships touching due to overlap with each other. Next round, each ship tries to "move away," but can't, due to overlap with a different ship. Now the two original ships did not overlap this turn, did not stop, and yet are still touching because neither moved away.

The rules are a mess. I'm really surprised they weren't cleaned up in TFA Core, with the other excellent clean-up in that release.

Actually, touching can persist in other situations than the stop maneuver. Imagine two ships touching due to overlap with each other. Next round, each ship tries to "move away," but can't, due to overlap with a different ship. Now the two original ships did not overlap this turn, did not stop, and yet are still touching because neither moved away.

The rules are a mess. I'm really surprised they weren't cleaned up in TFA Core, with the other excellent clean-up in that release.

Actually I think this is one area that was cleaned up a bit, but it still confuses some if they try and apply the rulings from the previous set. In the first rulebook, "touching" was not a defined state as it is now.

If a ship's manoeuvre (other than a stop) is insufficient to clear another ship, the overlap still occurs even if the ship slides back down the template to it's starting position. This would still result in an overlap and leave the ship touching because the final position would have been on top of another ship's base.

I find this the most confusing part and I'd love to know why this ruling was made this way or even why it was necessary:

"Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped)."

So you can also be touching but not touching. Indeed if two ships capable of stopping were touching, parallel and facing the same direction and both did a stop, well then they wouldn't be touching.

I'd be fine with touching being any situation you are simply in base contact (pretty easy to define!) so why this exception?

So you can also be touching but not touching. Indeed if two ships capable of stopping were touching, parallel and facing the same direction and both did a stop, well then they wouldn't be touching.

I'd be fine with touching being any situation you are simply in base contact (pretty easy to define!) so why this exception?

It's not (just) for ships that can all-stop.

Last round of my Regionals this weekend, my opponent and I had setup two of our ships directly across from one another, and my opponent's ship K-turned in front of mine, blocking it. Next turn both ships performed straight-1 maneuvers. They were parallel, facing the same direction, and had performed maneuvers of the same speed, but no overlap had occurred so I got to shoot at him.

It also stops people being cute and denying their opponents shots by barrel rolling into physical contact.

I find this the most confusing part and I'd love to know why this ruling was made this way or even why it was necessary:

"Sometimes a round will end with two ships touching each other, parallel, and facing the same direction. After both ships execute a maneuver of the same speed or perform the same boost or barrel roll action, they are not touching even if their bases are still in physical contact (unless they overlapped)."

So you can also be touching but not touching. Indeed if two ships capable of stopping were touching, parallel and facing the same direction and both did a stop, well then they wouldn't be touching.

I'd be fine with touching being any situation you are simply in base contact (pretty easy to define!) so why this exception?

In the first rulebook, it was confusing. There was no "touching" as such. You overlapped another ship and then moved back until you were touching or in base contact, but "touching" was not a defined game term. Then there were questions like "what if two ships are one in front of the other but haven't overlapped, are they subject to the overlap rule when they perform the same manoeuvre?" or "If my ships start the round in formation touching each other and perform the same manoeuvre, did they overlap?". And this is what the FAQ entry was trying to address. Unfortunately, there are a few FAQ entries that were written before the new rulebook, that now seem a little confusing when used with the new rulebook.

Under the new rulebook, they have defined "touching" and "overlap" as proper game terms and things are a little clearer. You now have an "overlap" situation that will leave the ships "touching", both are defined game states that can trigger certain rules and certain abilities.

It's not (just) for ships that can all-stop.

Last round of my Regionals this weekend, my opponent and I had setup two of our ships directly across from one another, and my opponent's ship K-turned in front of mine, blocking it. Next turn both ships performed straight-1 maneuvers. They were parallel, facing the same direction, and had performed maneuvers of the same speed, but no overlap had occurred so I got to shoot at him.

It also stops people being cute and denying their opponents shots by barrel rolling into physical contact.

Yeah I get that. The point being that you can have the same situation (an all-stop maneuver on a ship that is touching) and be considered both touching and not touching. Although I'm not sure that actually works "If two ships are touching, they remain touching until one of the ships moves (executes a maneuver, decloaks, or performs an action) in a way that results in their bases no longer being in physical contact." This would be the only way you could end up with both criteria being true.

Although I've always wondered about that. If you make a move or move as an action and your ship just perfectly fits (rare, but it happens) into contact, is that a bump or not? I assume by the new wording, it is not.

In the first rulebook, it was confusing. There was no "touching" as such. You overlapped another ship and then moved back until you were touching or in base contact, but "touching" was not a defined game term. Then there were questions like "what if two ships are one in front of the other but haven't overlapped, are they subject to the overlap rule when they perform the same manoeuvre?" or "If my ships start the round in formation touching each other and perform the same manoeuvre, did they overlap?". And this is what the FAQ entry was trying to address. Unfortunately, there are a few FAQ entries that were written before the new rulebook, that now seem a little confusing when used with the new rulebook.

Under the new rulebook, they have defined "touching" and "overlap" as proper game terms and things are a little clearer. You now have an "overlap" situation that will leave the ships "touching", both are defined game states that can trigger certain rules and certain abilities.

Well, it is in the rules reference quite explicitly. There must be a reason for the exception.

The rule could be:

a) ships are only touching if they overlap

b) ships are touching if they're in contact at the end of their move.

Even with the old rulebook these were applied to different situations.