Hi!

I was thinking this would be my new go-to rebel flagship for wave 4:

AF2A

+ Paragon

+ Tactical expert

+ Spinal turbolasers

99 points (I think)

Assuming spinal turbolasers does what we think it does, this ship has 3 red and one blue dice coming out of all 4 hull zones. If it is firing on a ship that has already been attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' command.

It also has 2 blue anti-squadron dice for shredding TIEs, and can command 2 squadrons in an emergency.

Nothing tournament-dominating I am sure, but with the very forgiving movement on the AF2 combined with the luxury of spamming manoeuvre commands for most of the game, this IMO is now the most flexible all-round ship we have.

Hi!

I was thinking this would be my new go-to rebel flagship for wave 4:

AF2A

Assuming spinal turbolasers does what we think it does, this ship has 3 red and one blue dice coming out of all 4 hull zones. If it is firing on a ship that has already been attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' .

Can you explain this bit? I thought paragon only worked if you got a double ark shot off the whale and I'm not sure what the focus fire bit is?

Hi!

I was thinking this would be my new go-to rebel flagship for wave 4:

AF2A

Assuming spinal turbolasers does what we think it does, this ship has 3 red and one blue dice coming out of all 4 hull zones. If it is firing on a ship that has already been attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' .

Can you explain this bit? I thought paragon only worked if you got a double ark shot off the whale and I'm not sure what the focus fire bit is?

That is Defiance. I mean he is mixing paragon up with Defiance from the Home One Expansion.

Hi!

I was thinking this would be my new go-to rebel flagship for wave 4:

AF2A

Assuming spinal turbolasers does what we think it does, this ship has 3 red and one blue dice coming out of all 4 hull zones. If it is firing on a ship that has already been attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' .

Can you explain this bit? I thought paragon only worked if you got a double ark shot off the whale and I'm not sure what the focus fire bit is?

That is Defiance. I mean he is mixing paragon up with Defiance from the Home One Expansion.

What I think he is talking about is doing a concentrate fire command to add a die of any color, since Paragon adds a black. I think it looks like a cool setup.

+ Paragon

If it is firing on a ship that has already been Paragon has already attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' command.

FTFY. Paragon only triggers against a ship that Paragon itself has already attacked that turn. That's why it's crappy: It would be a fine ship if it could proc on both attacks, but because it by definition can't, it's a piece of junk.

True, it would only be the one attack for the black die. I do like the idea of spinal mounts potentially making all arcs throwing the same amount of red dice.

+ Paragon

If it is firing on a ship that has already been Paragon has already attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' command.

FTFY. Paragon only triggers against a ship that Paragon itself has already attacked that turn. That's why it's crappy: It would be a fine ship if it could proc on both attacks, but because it by definition can't, it's a piece of junk.

I don't think it's a 'piece of junk.'

The AFMK2 has really nice manoeuvre options and fire arcs. It is very easy to line up a double arc-shot. Hence, on the first shot from the front arc you can fire 3 red and one blue. On the second shot from the side arc, you can fire 3 red, one blue and a black (paragon title) and add a second black with the focus fire order.

If you just spam manoeuvre commands with this ship you can use the manoeuvre command to line up a double arc shot if you need to, and if you don't, swap it out for a focus fire command for an extra black due to the tactical expert.

Instead of theoryhammer-rejecting this, please get out a VSD and an AFMk2 and push them around a table for a bit, and see for yourself how powerful the contingencies of manoeuvre/firepower are with this combination. In particular, pay attention to what happens when you overshoot the enemy and get one more turn of firing from your side/rear arcs into theirs. That's the moneyshot.

I have run this ship before in games and always been pleased with it, but spinal turrets will make it just that little bit more of an all-round powerhouse.

+ Paragon

If it is firing on a ship that has already been Paragon has already attacked that turn, it can add a black dice at red range and then another of any colour using it's guaranteed 'focus fire' command.

FTFY. Paragon only triggers against a ship that Paragon itself has already attacked that turn. That's why it's crappy: It would be a fine ship if it could proc on both attacks, but because it by definition can't, it's a piece of junk.

It wouldn't be the first ship to be described that way

If nothing else it would be a hell of a way to steer people away from Advanced Gunnery though. No one's going to give you the chance to shoot 6 red, 2 black, 2 blue out of any arc at a single target per turn.

It sounds like a pretty fun ship to swoop around with, might have to try it out at some stage.

I think it would be a fun way to run an Assault Frigate provided you're good with double-arcing. You can (hopefully) double arc on the way in and then shoot past to double arc on your way out. Crix Madine is gonna love it.

Side note: the above posters are correct that Paragon only triggers on itself. If a card says "you" it means "the ship this card is on." Paragon isn't as good as it initially appears.

Spinal Turbolasers are sounded like the new "it" card for wave 4.

Spinal Turbolasers are sounded like the new "it" card for wave 4.

People are talking it up a lot, but I can't help but think about how you almost never see enhanced armament even though Ackbar exists. We'll see I guess.

Spinal Turbolasers are sounded like the new "it" card for wave 4.

I agree, at least until the Quad Turbolaser one is revealed, cause that one seems interesting. I doubt it gives out accuracies, as we already have H9s.

Still of the opinion AF2s are one of the top ships in the game, and the idea of adding Spinal T.lasers just makes it even more so.

Combined with General Madine's added maneuverability, getting a double arc could come round with deadly regularity using this load out.

Spinal Turbolasers are sounded like the new "it" card for wave 4.

People are talking it up a lot, but I can't help but think about how you almost never see enhanced armament even though Ackbar exists. We'll see I guess.

We'll have to wait and see specifics, of course, but when it comes to Enhanced Armament I almost never see it with Ackbar because Ackbar himself already adds 2 red dice and at that point the player wants to improve the quality of his attack (with XI7 Turbolasers, usually) than the quantity of his dice.

Otherwise I do still see Enhanced Armament on Assault Frigates outside of Ackbar fleets.

Spinal Turbolasers are sounded like the new "it" card for wave 4.

I agree, at least until the Quad Turbolaser one is revealed, cause that one seems interesting. I doubt it gives out accuracies, as we already have H9s.

It seems to me from reading the text that the Quad Turbolasers provide some kind of dice-adding or dice-modifying effect that triggers when a red accuracy is in the pool. I see this as an indirect buff to Sensor Teams (given how unreliable red accuracy results are), but we'll have to wait and see what it does exactly before we determine if it's worth using.

Still of the opinion AF2s are one of the top ships in the game, and the idea of adding Spinal T.lasers just makes it even more so.

Combined with General Madine's added maneuverability, getting a double arc could come round with deadly regularity using this load out.

Provided the Spinal Turbolasers work as most of us are expecting them to (+1 red in front and rear), I definitely agree that Cryx Madine will love him some of those Spinal Turbolaser Assault Frigates. The Spinal Turbolasers may even see the return of the Assault Frigate MkIIA, as they would be a better fit there than on the MkIIB. That alone would be an achievement, I think.

I would think spinal mounts would be able to fire from the front, and maybe the rear only. I had expected this to be a title for the liberty.

As someone who actually likes Paragon (and anyone who doesn't just flies like a wuss with their AFs, because it's super easy to double arc with them if you are willing to get dirty), I would suggest:

AF2B, Paragon, Spinal Turbolasers

Why?

1. With Paragon, you want to get close. If you get close, you risk dying. If you are going to risk dying, you want to be as cheap and as tough as possible. Lose the tactical expert for that reason, and go with the B to reduce your points. The one blue die isn't going to make a difference for this ship; the power comes from the double arc.
2. AF2A and Paragon is not good. You are paying 9 points to get double blue AA on a ship that wants to double tap ships. Okay, so what else do we get? A single blue die. Not worth it.

So if I were running Paragon, that is what I would run in wave 4.

Instead of theoryhammer-rejecting this, please get out a VSD and an AFMk2 and push them around a table for a bit, and see for yourself how powerful the contingencies of manoeuvre/firepower are with this combination.

You assume I haven't tried it, but you couldn't be more wrong. Paragon is my own personal bugbear: It was the first thing I tried to make work when I started the game, and every so often I pull it out again to check and make sure it's still bad.

It really is.

I never see AF2's without dice modification of some kind right now, whether EA, TRC, or XI7. Let's compare AF2's with a double arc shot, one with TRC and one with Spinal Armaments (as we expect them to be, one out the front and rear). I'll ignore EA because its impact will be virtually identical in this case.

TRCs on average add a little over 1 extra damage over the course of both shots (assuming you're not burning your evade, which would give you a little over 2). Spinal Turbolasers will give you +.75 on average. There is no impact either way on the black die. So there's no reason I can see that Paragon's utility will increase as a result of Spinal Armaments--TRC would still be better damage output. You're still relying on fickle red dice, and in trade you get one single black die, unenhanced by any of the crit effects that make them so scary in the first place.

If you've found a way to get Paragon to be worth those 5 points, more power to you. In my experience, there is always something better that I would rather be doing with those 5 points.

If you've found a way to get Paragon to be worth those 5 points, more power to you. In my experience, there is always something better that I would rather be doing with those 5 points.

It's been more than worth 5 points for me, but I will say this:

1 - You have to fly it aggressively.

2 - There's a huge amount of synergy with objectives, because if you have both a yellow and blue someone wouldn't want to play, and your red is advanced gunnery and you have Paragon (but no MC80), people will sometimes take it as the lesser of the evils.

I wouldn't take Paragon in a list where I didn't intend for it to be the smasher / advanced gunnery platform. But in the right list, it's great, because it becomes a damned if you do / damned if you don't option. Again, you also have to be willing to get in close and mix it up.

I've taken Paragon out for a little spin lately, and it has been good. af2b, and, paragon (an a would have been great, but lack the points).

It's only role is to tank, to draw fire away from my trc90s and mc30, and for jl to hide behind sometimes.

It does that job well. With paragon my double arcs suddenly mean something. On top of trc double arcs and mc30 double arcs.

Spinal + af2a sounds like an exciting addition

Yeah for 5 points it not Defiance, but its pretty good. Of course it doesnt synergise with Ackbar.

Tactical expert is prettysolid on this build too - you can run Nav to set up the double arcs and then kick out the CF at the right moment.

Paragoncan be disproportionately great if you have first player, or as a big threat (at long range) to coordinate with your other ships. The trick is to have more than one good threat in position so escaing paragons double tap means your ship at risk can escape.

Instead of theoryhammer-rejecting this, please get out a VSD and an AFMk2 and push them around a table for a bit, and see for yourself how powerful the contingencies of manoeuvre/firepower are with this combination.

You assume I haven't tried it, but you couldn't be more wrong. Paragon is my own personal bugbear: It was the first thing I tried to make work when I started the game, and every so often I pull it out again to check and make sure it's still bad.

It really is.

I never see AF2's without dice modification of some kind right now, whether EA, TRC, or XI7. Let's compare AF2's with a double arc shot, one with TRC and one with Spinal Armaments (as we expect them to be, one out the front and rear). I'll ignore EA because its impact will be virtually identical in this case.

TRCs on average add a little over 1 extra damage over the course of both shots (assuming you're not burning your evade, which would give you a little over 2). Spinal Turbolasers will give you +.75 on average. There is no impact either way on the black die. So there's no reason I can see that Paragon's utility will increase as a result of Spinal Armaments--TRC would still be better damage output. You're still relying on fickle red dice, and in trade you get one single black die, unenhanced by any of the crit effects that make them so scary in the first place.

If you've found a way to get Paragon to be worth those 5 points, more power to you. In my experience, there is always something better that I would rather be doing with those 5 points.

Ok, you tried it a whole ago. It didn't work then.

You know what else people tried a while ago and said didn't work? Devastator.

Devastator is quickly turning into my MVP.

I've seen Paragon become a monster in the right scenario. With some of the new cards hitting in Waves 3 and 4 we could be seeing a number of old ships get some new life. There are a number of entirely new cars coming on both the Liberty and Interdictor and most of them have not been spoiled yet.

Instead of theoryhammer-rejecting this, please get out a VSD and an AFMk2 and push them around a table for a bit, and see for yourself how powerful the contingencies of manoeuvre/firepower are with this combination.

You assume I haven't tried it, but you couldn't be more wrong. Paragon is my own personal bugbear: It was the first thing I tried to make work when I started the game, and every so often I pull it out again to check and make sure it's still bad.

It really is.

I never see AF2's without dice modification of some kind right now, whether EA, TRC, or XI7. Let's compare AF2's with a double arc shot, one with TRC and one with Spinal Armaments (as we expect them to be, one out the front and rear). I'll ignore EA because its impact will be virtually identical in this case.

TRCs on average add a little over 1 extra damage over the course of both shots (assuming you're not burning your evade, which would give you a little over 2). Spinal Turbolasers will give you +.75 on average. There is no impact either way on the black die. So there's no reason I can see that Paragon's utility will increase as a result of Spinal Armaments--TRC would still be better damage output. You're still relying on fickle red dice, and in trade you get one single black die, unenhanced by any of the crit effects that make them so scary in the first place.

If you've found a way to get Paragon to be worth those 5 points, more power to you. In my experience, there is always something better that I would rather be doing with those 5 points.

Ok, you tried it a whole ago. It didn't work then.

You know what else people tried a while ago and said didn't work? Devastator.

Devastator is quickly turning into my MVP.

I've seen Paragon become a monster in the right scenario. With some of the new cards hitting in Waves 3 and 4 we could be seeing a number of old ships get some new life. There are a number of entirely new cars coming on both the Liberty and Interdictor and most of them have not been spoiled yet.

This x100

My post wave three AF2 go to will be a carrier. AF2b Gallant Haven, Torynn Farr, Flight Controllers, Expanded Hangers, and ECM. Keep in mind the blue dice rerolls will apply to squads who use blue dice to attack ships

I quite like comboing Paragon with Raymus, so you roll your first attack get whatever, then roll 2nd attack + Black. Then you can add a black and reroll your first black if you get a bad roll.