So I have had a couple of Defenders since they originally came out, but have never used them due to points cost.
As Veterans is coming soon I want to get in the practice of flying them.
I'm hoping someone can give me advice on how best to outfit them, and fly them in the current meta (please no Veterans upgrades).
Advice, tactics, experience, etc would be greatly appreciated.
The Veterans upgrades are very, very strong, but if you're restricted to use them "stock", there are a few options I like.
I've had a fair amount of success with a "super-Defender", which is either of the named Defenders with HLC, Predator or Lone Wolf, and Hull Upgrade. Vessery doesn't need Predator, but Lone Wolf is still a nice insurance policy in case his Target Lock helper dies. He can do something like Outmaneuver instead if you like.
Here's a link to a post I wrote a little less than a year ago (so a different meta), but some of it might be useful still.
The main strength of them with the HLC is that they put out a really huge level of offense, and while they're not exactly tough, they're tough enough to knock some stuff out before it can finish them off, and they're fast enough to avoid a lot of short-range concentrated fire, which is their downfall in my experience.
My favorite way is to use ion cannon and line up a fairly straight on attack. If you land the ion shot then you can 4K behind your opponent that they will be helpless. The defender has three attack so don't be afraid to stay back in range 3 and lob shots in. You will hard to hit and also still able to do some damage. It's also got a ton of moves. People will expect the k turn all the time so use that against them and pull a red 1 and be unpredictable.
Edited by KnucklesamwichDefenders are going to be a whole different animal when Vets comes out. Right now trying to use them competitively is just gimping yourself and you may be burned out on them before they ever land. Most people that want to get practice with them now just proxy the cards and play casually. That is what I have been doing when I want to try them. Nobody has complained yet.
Practice with the proxies. There's no point without them.
If you play x7 learn to always be doing 3 speed or more moves!!! That extra evade is usually well worth it. Even bumping something if you have a shot isn't too bad.
You must also always be thinking two turns ahead: you must always allow yourself to reliably get your predictable single 4K. That means don't be looking at rocks r2 away. The 4K will place you exactly at the end of r2.
For tie D, practice placing the rocks and putting your tie D on the inside away from enemy ships: this will stop them from being focus fired easily. Your tie D should be the hardest ship to attack.
Adding a hull upgrade has proven to actually be useful.
yeah i really wouldnt bother with them without the vets.
Ive tried to use them for quite some time, theyre too expensive. Even with the Tie/D letting them fire both weapons im iffy on the price, but least the x7 makes them a little cheaper and harder to hit.
That and Ryad. Ryad will change things. She is going to be catching a LOT of people off guard "wait... she can 2K?!?!" lol
Defenders w/o vets i'd say are the most worthless TIE of them all. Vessery can do some damage but hes so expensive and lacks evade he can get picked off easy before he even shoots - happens to me way too often.
Right now I amrunning two onyx one with x7 and the other with D/ion cannon. They are with Fel amd it is fun and hard to put down. If you go for Fel then the defenders are gonna go crazy. It makes my opponents make a hard choice that has a hefty price no matter what.
I want to practice with the current dial vs the current meta. I figure if I can fly them decently with the known handicaps I should do well with the new upgrades from Veterans.
Right now this is the list I came up with.
Brath with Predator, Ion Pulse Missiles, HLC, Hull Upgrade.
Vessery with Lone Wolf, HLC, Stealth Device.
I figure if I can keep both ships at range 2 from each other, and range 2-3 from enemy ships I can keep pounding them with HLC, and if they get into range 1 then they still get 4 attacks against them.
I want to practice with the current dial vs the current meta. I figure if I can fly them decently with the known handicaps I should do well with the new upgrades from Veterans.
Right now this is the list I came up with.
Brath with Predator, Ion Pulse Missiles, HLC, Hull Upgrade.
Vessery with Lone Wolf, HLC, Stealth Device.
I figure if I can keep both ships at range 2 from each other, and range 2-3 from enemy ships I can keep pounding them with HLC, and if they get into range 1 then they still get 4 attacks against them.
That's the exact list I took to Regionals last year. It was good for me (I made it to the semifinals). The only change I'd make right now is to drop Vessery's Stealth Device for a Hull Upgrade. The prevalence of Crack Shot makes Stealth Device even more of an iffy proposition than it already is. I'd actually think about dropping the Ion Pulse Missiles for a 3 point Initiative bid as well. There's a lot of very solid PS8 aces in play right now that a 3 point bid will let you get the drop on, and there's not nearly as many big turrets to chase down (which is what the Ion Pulse Missile is best for).
Don't listen to the cowards above. It's a powerful ship, and while the meta is not as kind to them as it was a year or so ago, that squad is still dangerous to a lot of lists. Even if you don't win (and you might not, as the ship takes a bit of getting used to), you'll at least be experienced flying the ship title-less. I'm not yet 100% convinced the HLC Defender won't still have a use in the future.
Vessery really shouldnt be ran unless you have a targetlock buddy for him to use his pilot skill on. Or, he fires first, which isnt the case if hes coupled with Brath. You can remedy this if you put VI on him and just fire with him first, but then you lose juicy EPT powers defenders love oh so much.
In my experience though, Brath isnt worth it. Really expensive for a highly highly situational ability. I ran him 10-12 times and i never got his power off once, i either killed the target, only hit shields, or everything was already a crit anyway. Granted that last bit wont happen if using HLC.
Best way to abuse current defenders would be Vessery pretty much how you have him (i pref Mk2 engine mod because stressing a defender out is murder) and either a random POS pilot like a TIE Fighter with TL Mod or someone who likes to leave his targetlock on the target (Omega Leader, TIE Adv w/ sensor upgrade) or fires after Vessery. Quite common if you see a vessery to either have a shuttle flying around with the title for table-wide TL or Omega Leader.
You REALLY want vessery to get his free TL. Focus for his action, roll dice, before you do anything else to those dice you acquire your TL and may spend it if desired. Focus if needed/possible. That hurts.
Seeing a lot of hate for the poor Defenders (Pre Vets). Except you Bio. I can always count on you for good Defender reviews. I am trying out this list at my game night tonight.
THE WAMPA'S CRY (98)
Colonel Vessery - VI and HLC
Onyx Squadron Pilot - HLC
Wampa - Targeting Computer
You can't beat a 3 red/green dice ship with...wait for it.....yes the white K turn. So great. Use the predictability to your advantage. Most cases they can call the white K all they want, doesn't mean they can get into position quick enough to counter (And with two actions on deck a focus and a TL if your flying Vessery). I personally (depending on their opening moves) start off slow and then use the TIEs speed by flying past them. Some people don't like not to shoot every round (including me) but in some cases it is worth it to get a better position.
You can also 4 k then bump and 4 k again. If they try and block your K turn most of the time its as predictable as...you doing a 4 k turn haha. I used to run a Decimator with Vessary just to suck all the red dice away from my Defender. Its hard to compete in this meta ( I feel) with two ships any more. Used to run a Dengar and IG build with mild success but ultimately decided to jump on the three ship train.
Practice makes perfect my friend. I can never get burnt out on them. The better you get in judging the distance on your 4 white k turn and using that to your advantage, the more justified you'll feel in spending the points.
Edited by CooMasterCooShe is going to be catching a LOT of people off guard "wait... she can 2K?!?!" lol
Yeah, a lot of people are going to get thrown off by the fact that she can 2-5K and their all green moves.
I haven't thought a build with her through much, but using a green 2K to get behind someone at rage 1, focus, tractor beam and have Outmaneuver. 4 dice firing at -2 agility with a focus is going to ruin someone's day. But there are probably way better setups, the thought of putting someone down 2 green dice is just fun though.
Vader with two PS1 Defenders is a pretty strong list. People tend to always assume the Defenders will 4-K so play on those expectations.
Try this:
Vader with TIE/x1, Predator, Stealth Device, and Advanced Targeting Computer
Onyx Squd Pilot x2
You can also run Vessery with Vader as a Target Lock buddy.
Defenders are going to be a whole different animal when Vets comes out. Right now trying to use them competitively is just gimping yourself and you may be burned out on them before they ever land. Most people that want to get practice with them now just proxy the cards and play casually. That is what I have been doing when I want to try them. Nobody has complained yet.
Disagree. Getting a handle on their dial is very helpful before you are thrown into the fray with the Veterans stuff.
As for the thread, here's what I took last time to a tournament.
Vessery w/VI
Omega Leader w/Juke, Comms Relay
Omega Squadron w/Crackshot x 2
It was quite fun. You may also want to try teaming Vessery up with the Inquisitor and another Advanced/FO/Adv. Prototype.
I want to practice with the current dial vs the current meta. I figure if I can fly them decently with the known handicaps I should do well with the new upgrades from Veterans.
Right now this is the list I came up with.
Brath with Predator, Ion Pulse Missiles, HLC, Hull Upgrade.
Vessery with Lone Wolf, HLC, Stealth Device.
I figure if I can keep both ships at range 2 from each other, and range 2-3 from enemy ships I can keep pounding them with HLC, and if they get into range 1 then they still get 4 attacks against them.
That's the exact list I took to Regionals last year. It was good for me (I made it to the semifinals). The only change I'd make right now is to drop Vessery's Stealth Device for a Hull Upgrade. The prevalence of Crack Shot makes Stealth Device even more of an iffy proposition than it already is. I'd actually think about dropping the Ion Pulse Missiles for a 3 point Initiative bid as well. There's a lot of very solid PS8 aces in play right now that a 3 point bid will let you get the drop on, and there's not nearly as many big turrets to chase down (which is what the Ion Pulse Missile is best for).
Don't listen to the cowards above. It's a powerful ship, and while the meta is not as kind to them as it was a year or so ago, that squad is still dangerous to a lot of lists. Even if you don't win (and you might not, as the ship takes a bit of getting used to), you'll at least be experienced flying the ship title-less. I'm not yet 100% convinced the HLC Defender won't still have a use in the future.
You'll recall I was never keen on SD on defenders that was of course pre crack shot I just prefer the surety of hull upgrade.
OP fly them, learn them and when vets arrives you'll have a massive advantage.
Biophysical,
Thanks for the upgrades advice, do you have any advice on flying them and possibly obstacle placement?
Flying HLC Vessery with an FCS named Phantom is already good pre-Veterans buffs.
There is also Jonus Brothers. Captain Jonus with Adaptability I guess, 2x Onyx Squadron, 2x HLC. You can drop to Deltas if you want. Haven't flown it but it seems okay. Something I've always wanted to try but never got around to it.
I ran HLC, VI, Vessary, TIE mk.2
Omega Leader, juke, com relay
Epsilon
Epsilon
Vessary and FOs play very nicely as they give him target locks and are hard to kill. Three nice big roids to fly around and you're away.
I run a fairly simple dual Defender, Inquisitor setup that is fun to fly. Has been great to learn the dial to get ready for Vets.
Inquisitor w/PTL, Tracers, Autothrusters, Title
2x Delta Squadron Pilot w/Hull Upgrade
Currently, you can get more firepower and last longer for less squadron points. After Imperial Veterans is where it is up in the air.
Biophysical,
Thanks for the upgrades advice, do you have any advice on flying them and possibly obstacle placement?
I typically take 3 large asteroids. Deployment depends on opponent, but usually I put them in a loose triangle (about 1.5 range bands per side), roughly in the middle. This gives a lot of room for 2 small-based ships to maneuver, but it will get in the way of formations and large ships. You'll have to develop your own asteroid strategies, though. There are a lot of nuances for each opposing quad that will change asteroid placement in different ways. That's a good start, though.
Bio basically has the same asteroid placement I have. I will add you want the 'tip' of the triangle closes towards your opponent, this way your defender can bank into more positions to abuse the 4K later on.
I generally fly Vess, but my rule of thumb with him is my action is always defensive. If I barrel roll, it's to get out of arc more often than that to gain arc, same with focus, it's only getting spent on attack if I have no return fire coming or it guarantees the kill otherwise I'm reroll ing those focuses with my free TL. This really helps with survivability and with Vess rarely hampers his offense significantly.
I also never run HLC defenders without at least one blocker. The his helps control range but also lets you get some real easy action denial. You know that white 4K that makes defenders 'so predictable and easy to block'? Well you send an academy into that position first you're going to be blocking thier blocks most of the time meaning a nice lazy 1 bank bags you 4 TL/focus dice at an action less target. Bye bye.
As for wingmen well like I say I one a blocker very important. Equally, you need another big threat to prevent the defender being thier only viable target each round. I like omega leader and doomshuttle to fill this spot be used they're cheap and terrifying with some reasonable survivability.
It's not been mentioned but it's worth pointing out that HLC is compulsory pre vets. I've debated this with Bio a bit and we both agree (at least on this one point!)
Final though re Pre-vets Defenders is just to remember you're playing the hair not the tortoise. Damage damage damage, that's your goal. The defender can live through a bad call once or twice, but this is not a heavyweight fighter and sustained firepower will down it. You need to get your damage on early and fast otherwise you will lose. This isn't an ace who can break away fly around and re engage at whim, you're flying a jouster and need to smash things apart quick smart. First thing I do when I've got a list I'm happy with incl a defender is get down in the basement on the table and work out half a dozen or so opening moves. Around common asteroid placements. You can ALWAYS get into range with your whole fleet on turn two if you know what you're doing. This has help me so many times in many many tourney games that I can't stress enough how useful working this out will prove to be.
Yes, definitely work on your opening moves against some squads you expect to face. That will help your asteroid placement strategy, and it will make a big difference in games. They aren't the most responsive ships, so figuring out how your squad is strong and weak against certain matchups can be very important.
Ran the two Defenders last night with Biophysical's advice.
Went 2-0 with them, both of my opponents were not expecting Defender's and were uncertain how to deal with them.
The first list was a stripped down Dengar and Manaroo with a Black Sun Vigo.
The second was a Whisper, Inquisitor, Mauler list.
Can't say either list was really competitive, but both players are really good at flying and using their pilot's abilities.
So I have had a couple of Defenders since they originally came out, but have never used them due to points cost.
As Veterans is coming soon I want to get in the practice of flying them.
I'm hoping someone can give me advice on how best to outfit them, and fly them in the current meta (please no Veterans upgrades).
Advice, tactics, experience, etc would be greatly appreciated.
I've been running a very successful list with a Decivader (Oicunn with CS, Gunner, Vader, Mara) and Brath (HLC, Lone Wolf) that has been doing very well and is a likely regionals list for me. The only list I haven't faced is triple jumpmasters but they seem to have morphed into 2 jumpers+support, which I have faced a handful of times. I'd prefer a Predator+HLC+Hull Brath but I don't have the points (it's my favorite build for him) but LW works well as the decimator is almost always the first target against most lists.
If you're looking for 2 defender builds (and defender help in general), Bio is the guy whose advice you'd want to
follow.
It's not surprising to me that people are underestimating or unfamiliar with your list since the defender is a very good ship that is played rarely and is one of the strongest ships that people have simply dismissed.
Edited by AlexW