What is the biggest meta challenge with 4 rebels? Is it Uboats? Or is it imp aces? I think 4 ship rebs can match well vs one or the other.

In my opinion the greatest challenge is matchuping up well vs both dominant archetypes. That is; ability to have a solid game vs either archetype.

Biggs is a thing. He works now, maybe better than ever, paired with a DTF buddy.

Rebels have a ton of moving parts that individually trouble the dominant archetypes. Stress bot, Biggs, Wes, and access to cheap guidance chips abuse.

I think most optimal 4 ship rebels need to plan on removing a Scout before it fires one torp. The Uboat game is vastly different when they start firing with only 2 scouts.

Rebel anti ace tech and pieces are fairly modular, with typically unfortunate points costs. Poe does good work vs aces. Stress bot is obviously bad news. Blockers ruin aces.

2 Talas with missiles and chimps sets you back 34(36) points. Two missiles at PS4 are very dangerous for PS3 Scouts, most of all against scouts without overclocked. Biggs protects low(ish) PS missile caddies from aces. Missile caddies claim table pretty well vs aces. PS4 green squads with homings, crack, adapt, and chips are 25 point nightmare ordinance for aces and Jumps.

15 point prototypes are pretty darn amazing blockers.

These are some of the things I'm looking at.

What's holding Rebel 4 ship builds back? Is the ace match that hard? I tend to think we have yet to see ordinance fully realized on the rebel side of things. Removing a jump boat before it fires and threating aces with ordinance seems workable to me.

You are going to have to narrow it down a bit more. 4 ship Rebels is not an archetype.

You are going to have to narrow it down a bit more. 4 ship Rebels is not an archetype.

I think he narrowed it down pretty good in his post.. he means lists that are similar to Paul Heaver's 2015 Worlds list.

Basically StressBot/Ace/X/X lists.

I think they are struggling to beat imp aces/ palp aces right now. They should be taking enough hits to deal with JM's and hit back hard enough.

High PS Arc Dodgers are such a pain in the arse .. even though u have stress bot it still flies so bad its easy to get out of the BTL arc and take it down.

Don't forget after the MOV errata large ships pretty much now count as two ships for all intents and purposes.

1) bump the U-Boat

2) ?????

3) profit

It's really hard to find an all comers list with 4 ship rebels. Historically when you go 4 ship rebel you're a jousting list. Right now that puts you at a disadvantage against crack swarm and u boats right off the bat. Stresshogs can be killed before they shoot pretty easily right now. That and most people have figured out how to outfly stresshog, those that can't, fly captain yorr. . The problem with protecting the stresshog is that you actually want it to draw some fire. If you protect the stresshog with biggs you're 52 points into your list spent on ships that you want to die, you definitely do not want the stresshog to be your last ship on the board. Normally you could comfortably round that out biggs and a stresshog with say 2 b wings with fire control systems to give you a nice damage boost, but thanks to vicious powercreep, right now b wings are in a pretty bad place. If you want to include an ace of some sorts you're likely including a z 95, if you're using the originally discussed biggs to protect your stresshog and ace you get 36 points to round your list out. Prior to wave 8 I rounded that out with Wedge with BB8, IA, and predator and a tactician fcs b wing in place of biggs since i just cant quit rebel control. The thing about your 34-36 point rebel ace is you really don't have a lot of great options, just about anything that does fit is in a bad place against u boats. You could spend your points for a ps bid to shoot before u boats, and add wes janson for good measure, but you will really struggle against against aces superior efficiency. Also, with the biggs stresshog z base you're not super firm against aces either yet, so your 64 points into a list with a disadvantage against most commonly played lists. Anything you add really has to tilt the field in your favor against aces and jousting lists and if rebels had that we'd see it everywhere already. This is all before imperial veterans come out and stress ignoring defenders with significantly better jousting efficiency are added to the meta.

The tl:dr 4 ship rebels is a joust list that gets out jousted by everything

You are going to have to narrow it down a bit more. 4 ship Rebels is not an archetype.

I think he narrowed it down pretty good in his post.. he means lists that are similar to Paul Heaver's 2015 Worlds list.

Basically StressBot/Ace/X/X lists.

I think they are struggling to beat imp aces/ palp aces right now. They should be taking enough hits to deal with JM's and hit back hard enough.

High PS Arc Dodgers are such a pain in the arse .. even though u have stress bot it still flies so bad its easy to get out of the BTL arc and take it down.

You really don't have the hit points to deal with JMs, they can pretty reliably take a ship off the board a turn. I've run practice games against u boats where between stress and blocking i prevented u boats from ever firing torpedoes, but they're still super accurate turrets with great dials so you end up losing the damage race pretty quickly.

I don't think biggs plus stress bot works. I am only speaking modularly here. Clearly Biggs plus stressbot can't out Joust Joust masters.

Can biggs and two missile talas plus ace out joust Uboats? Do Jake and Biggs work in the same squad? Prockets plus pecking seem really potent vs Jumps. That match is very similar to trip imp aces, well parts of it. Can you shoe-horn a stressbot into a squad that can handle a single jump master before torps fly?

Lets not rehash the obvious. No one is suggesting Biggs and 2 tlts will work vs Uboats.

4-ship Scum is currently bad just like 4-ship Rebels. This meta characteristic has all to do with # of ships. As you pointed out, Rebels are fine, they have many great ships that can be fielded.

For better and for worse, the meta has mostly slipped into 2-3 ships being most optimal. The only true exception being 6 tie fighter crackswarms of various designs.

A significant factor, I would say, is the need for a ship to always survive two 4-dice attacks before dying.(U-boats, Ghost, Dash, Whisper) Ships like Y-wings, that usually are part of a 4-ship list, can likely die from duel U-boat shots. Significantly, the U-boat itself passes this test & cannot be 2-shotted reliably. Of course tie swarms survive through numbers and being difficult to 1-shot. There is only a 25-30% chance of being 1-shotted by a U-boat torpedo.

Surprisingly, the next viable 4-ship list may be imperial. Just a theory of course, but bombers are likely viable when Imperial Veterans comes out.

Specifically this build:

Gamma Squadron Veteran, Deadeye, Homing Missile, extra munitions, Chips (27 points)

This should be cheap enough to field 4-ships. The times they are a changin

It only takes the inclusion of this guy to mess with the Cancer Ships:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!4:-1,77:-1:20:&sn=Unnamed%20Squadron

Surprisingly, the next viable 4-ship list may be imperial. Just a theory of course, but bombers are likely viable when Imperial Veterans comes out.

Specifically this build:

Gamma Squadron Veteran, Deadeye, Homing Missile, extra munitions, Chips (27 points)

Agreed, I think that's going to be a strong addition to Imperial lists.

The Imperials already have a good 4 ship list of course:

The T-70 is a nice ship but doesn't quite have the price to make a 4-squad list. You could take 4 blue Squadron Novices with R2 and IA for 100 points. They effectively have 7 hull points to chew through meaning they will alsmot certainly require 3 torpedoes to kill (or at least 2 plus some turret fire).

The downside is that they are PS2 so will be firing after U-boats and they will get eaten alive by Aces.

Red Squadron Veterans are a bit better at PS4 and they have an EPT slot for a cheap Crackshot but you cannot fit 4 into 100 points. Maybe 3 RSVs with crackshot and either an IA or Autothrusters would be a good place to start. That comes to 87 points (Autothruster version) which leaves you just enough for a naked Tala to use as a blocker. Or take a Bandit with a 1 point Init bid.

Not sure how competitive it would be.

I am running 4 ships now. Ghost 2 As and a z. It is a ton of fun to fly and does pretty well give it a whirl.

4 ship rebels are typically 4 joustwings. Joustwings cannot compete with the arc dodging that Acewings can do, and point for point they're less efficient than Acewings at straight up jousting.

This doesn't take into account that they're usually based around PS 2, so they'll get wiped by U-Boats easily.

U-Boats, Crackshot swarm, and that 5x A-Wing Crackshot list are about the only viable joustwing lists right now.

4 Rebel ships is so Wave 3. Remember the days when everyone flew 4 generics and it was considered a challenge to make a 3 unique list?

i faced the bwing stressbot, biggs, and 2 z95 shmucks last night. Was rather annoying since i had a stressbuild Decimator: first guy that hits me is stressed all enemy ships in range 1 stressed and tactician (because i forgot that only works in my arc). Well, first guy that hit me was a PS9 Stresshog and i rarely got someone ELSE with marajade because he just kept the other guys at a distance lol. Gladly gave me 1 green die to avoid getting stressed by mara jade.

Probably would have won that game anyway if we didnt both consistently fail at calling the other guy's bluff. He kept thinking i was going to fly Vader this way, i expected the Bwing to follow me if i went that way, so i went this way which slams right into the bwing that moved first from initiative. Five turns in a row rofl. **** z95 picked off vader because i had no tokens

4 Rebel ships is so Wave 3. Remember the days when everyone flew 4 generics and it was considered a challenge to make a 3 unique list?

4 ship rebs was still good in wave 7, there was a small event called worlds and i think they did pretty good there.

4 Rebel ships is so Wave 3. Remember the days when everyone flew 4 generics and it was considered a challenge to make a 3 unique list?

4 ship rebs was still good in wave 7, there was a small event called worlds and i think they did pretty good there.

Even had some hotshot rookie at Ps 8 called Poe Dameron included in the winning list....

4 Rebel ships is so Wave 3. Remember the days when everyone flew 4 generics and it was considered a challenge to make a 3 unique list?

4 ship rebs was still good in wave 7, there was a small event called worlds and i think they did pretty good there.

Even had some hotshot rookie at Ps 8 called Poe Dameron included in the winning list....

Must have been a fluke. Some random guy gets a lucky break or something like that.

The Rebels are being "held back" (1) for a number of reasons: the rise of the U-boats, Palp Aces and the change in ordinance in this wave being the primary ones.

The old rebel toolkit of TLT and shield regen (as epitomized Paul Heaver's 2015 world list) can no longer be safely fielded. Low PS ships get eaten alive. Many Imperial and Scum players have learn't how to counter the old standbys such as stress-hog.

The change in ordinance has created the alpha strike phenomenon, which in turn has changed the tempo of games. You can easily loose a ship, if not more, in the first exchange of fire. Nor can you slow roll in with B-Wings and Y-Wings, they're just easy prey to Contracted Scouts and the like. Big Base ships like the Faclon are also vulnerable.

Sadly there is no real stand out Rebel aces at the moment: the likes of Poe and Corran have nearly been completely pushed out of the current meta.

Best rebel counters I've seen so far:

- Ghost that acts as a damage sponge paired with Dash, Miranda or Biggs

- Z-95 or Awing swarms

- K-Wing "swarm" (i.e. two or more K-Wings that can slam, drop bombs etc).

I'm flying variations of the Ghost, which is lots of fun and a real "toolbox" - so many options there. I'd say give that ship a go and try all the different flavors.

(1) I don't think held back, just that they now have to change tactics and people are experimenting with a range of options

I don't get it, Imp Aces was a thing during last wave, why is it holding back rebels this wave? Or is it the Potty Patrol acting as a gate that all lists must pass...

If only there was a way to keep PS 3 large base ships from getting focus tokens...

I don't get it, Imp Aces was a thing during last wave, why is it holding back rebels this wave? Or is it the Potty Patrol acting as a gate that all lists must pass...

If only there was a way to keep PS 3 large base ships from getting focus tokens...

That's precisely it. Most of the conventional anti-ace Rebel lists are weak against the Contracted Scouts and vice versa. Playing Rebels in the current competitive meta involves a bit of 'out-of-the-box' thinking.

I don't get it, Imp Aces was a thing during last wave, why is it holding back rebels this wave? Or is it the Potty Patrol acting as a gate that all lists must pass...

If only there was a way to keep PS 3 large base ships from getting focus tokens...

That's precisely it. Most of the conventional anti-ace Rebel lists are weak against the Contracted Scouts and vice versa. Playing Rebels in the current competitive meta involves a bit of 'out-of-the-box' thinking.

Pretty much spot on.

They are losing instantaneously to Triple Scouts and Double Scouts.

I actually think the Rebel large base ships have it pretty easy against triple Scouts, in that they can do a really good job of controlling range. Where they tend to suffer is against Aces who are moving after them (Soontir/Whisper/Vader). In my regional event I ran Dash/Lothal Rebel and didn't have any issues with Scouts or the Whisper/Echo list I played against.

That being said the Rebs do have an uphill battle to fight, but they're used to it!