So Crack Swarms are a thing for sure. But why don't we see the 7 or 8 Tie swarm?

I mean, yes, Uboats can do some damage, but I think worst case scenario they take out 3 ties, but most likely 2 of the Ties in the first exchange. But even in that case, you have plenty of shots heading their way, and with that many ships on the board you should have great options for blocking.

The next major issue is Palp Aces. With 7 or 8 Ties, you should a) be able to erase Palp off the board quickly, or b) block well enough to get an ace off the board quickly. Right?

So as a non-swarm player, what am I missing?

6 TIEs with crack are better? In your above example when you lose 2 before they shoot - wouldn't you rather shoot first and make them lose a toilet bowl before it shoots?

Because you can't really fit 8 ties into a list, unless they're all mostly generics. 7 ties with Howlrunner is a better list.

The Tie Swarm takes a fair amount of skill and time to fly correctly. Since there's easier lists that can perform as well, and don't take as long, in tournaments you're less like to see them.

Crackshot. 6 Black Squads with Crackshot is 90 points. That leaves you 10 points to switch in a named pilot or two or upgrade to Omagas.

The extra ship or two doesn't make up for the ability of Crackshot TIEs to put some damage on higher mitigation targets.

Crack swarm is a lethal threat to the larger, naked swarms. I wanted to run a 7-ship swarm at regionals, but the little benchmark tool convinced me otherwise.

I mean, yes, Uboats can do some damage, but I think worst case scenario they take out 2 of the Ties in the first exchange. But even in that case, you have plenty of shots heading their way, and with that many ships on the board you should have great options for blocking.

Worst case scenario is that each U-Boat one shots a TIE, which isn't unreasonable.

But doesn't blocking make a big difference? I know at least in my experience, the lower PS Ties usually beat out the higher PS Ties in a match up because they can block and deny actions.

I guess no one really trust their blocking skills and would rather just go with the Crack Shot variations which seem to be a more sure thing.

I mean, yes, Uboats can do some damage, but I think worst case scenario they take out 2 of the Ties in the first exchange. But even in that case, you have plenty of shots heading their way, and with that many ships on the board you should have great options for blocking.

Worst case scenario is that each U-Boat one shots a TIE, which isn't unreasonable.

So all 3 ties blank out on dice and/or pull a direct hit?

Possible? Perhaps. Likely? I'm not certain I would say so.

Worst case scenario is that each U-Boat one shots a TIE, which isn't unreasonable.

So all 3 ties blank out on dice and/or pull a direct hit?

Possible? Perhaps. Likely? I'm not certain I would say so.

Spain (Madrid) just had a 7 TIE swarm win a 186 player Regional, and it had *some* crackshot in it (four):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaBvNd5-8-U

I mean, yes, Uboats can do some damage, but I think worst case scenario they take out 2 of the Ties in the first exchange. But even in that case, you have plenty of shots heading their way, and with that many ships on the board you should have great options for blocking.

Worst case scenario is that each U-Boat one shots a TIE, which isn't unreasonable.

So all 3 ties blank out on dice and/or pull a direct hit?

Possible? Perhaps. Likely? I'm not certain I would say so.

Isn't that what a "worst case scenario" is? I don't know how the actual math works out but it seems like it should be probable enough to worry about happening during a long tournament.

If all of your ships are taking evade as an action to minimize the chances of being one shot, you aren't going to be dealing much damage in return, especially if the initial engagement is at range 3. If you go with the focus action your odds of taking 3 damage (or 2 damage and pull a crit that kills you) is increased.

A very legit list is 3 academies, 3 bs black, and howl with cs. That is 4 cs instead of 5 or 6, but you pick up the extra ship. It's the only 7 tie swarm I've seen that looks like it can compete with the 6 tie crack swarm.

7 Ties crackshot swarms are a thing, maybe you're just not seeing them in your meta.

One just won the Spanish Madrid regional as said by Deroche above and I went top 4 with one at the Jakku Open.

Classic plasma torpedo shot with GC and a focus vs a focused Tie: about a 20% chance of one shot (discounting crits).

Classic proton torpedo shot with GC and lock vs a focused Tie: about a 25% chance of one shot (discounting crits).

For both you have about 40% chances of rolling 2 hits. Even if you consider that you take a crit every time, you only have about 1 in 4 chances of drawing a direct hit, so about a 10% added chance of dying to a hit crit.

This gives you an overestimated 30% chance of dying to a plasma and 35% chance of dying to a proton.

Assuming a classic plasma/plasma/proton setup you have about 3.1% chances of loosing 3 ties on the engagement.

Pretty good betting odds.

I have much better odds with my swarm of 5 crack blacks and 2 academies to destroy a scout before it fires if I can manage a range 1 engagement with the blacks.

Triple scouts are not the big menace to the swarm, palp aces are.

7 Ties crackshot swarms are a thing, maybe you're just not seeing them in your meta.

Because 6 TIEs with Crackshot leaves only 10 points? Unless you're dropping two Blacks for Academies and only running 5 crackshots, but then... why aren't you just running a 6 TIE Crackswarm?

What was the TIE swarm list that won the Madrid regional?

Great question and thread; I have 7 TIEs and I'd like to get the chance to run them in a swarm. What's the best swarm setup for a non-FA collection? What's the easiest way to keep them tight and not block each other?......lots of practice I'm thinking.

Howl, Mauler, Scourge, and three black all with CS are a great TIE/ln only swarm list.

The Madrid regional was won with:

Howl, crack

3 blacks crack

3 academies.

A very good list that I would probably run if I was not afraid of flying Howl.

@Darkcloak : against lists able to kill Howlrunner before PS4, you're much better off with 1 more Tie.

Having one more Tie is also a great help against Aces, as you get one more blocker.

The 6 Tie crackswarm with howl is also very susceptible to blocking by scouts/other swarms.

In the mirror I'm pretty sure that I have at least a 50/50% chance with my 5 crack blacks 2 academies due to blocking. I also have 99 pts so fire before the opposing blacks, thus having pretty good odds of removing Howl before they fire.

@Clanofwolves: check out the video link above, it's got great flying on the swarm player part.

You will not see tie swarms often simply because it is a lot of hard work against different matchups:

- Place your asteroids incorrectly and keeping a formation becomes hard

- Move incorrectly and you lose actions due to bumps

- Guess incorrectly where your opponent will go and you start suffering damage without an opportunity to strike back

- Attack at the wrong range and those 2 attack dice at range 3 will not accomplish much, even with crackshot

- If the opponent controls you then you suddenly face splitfire scenarios

- Etc

It's not that swarms are bad, but rather that they can be unforgiving. Making a mistake while piloting one is like making a mistake while carrying a tall stack of dishes; you may recover, but you may also crash spectacularly

I have tried Crack ties and I can never do enough damage to even get the crack of, so I guess we just a had a long run in the meta where ships either easily saved 2-3 hits or could absorb it or regen it?

As for the 8 Tie swarm : it's still a very solid list, but it suffers a lot in the palp aces era. It's also unreliable compared to a crackshot swarm if your opponent green dices are slightly hot.

I had a game last month against triple scouts with my 7 Ties, shooting at range 2. I landed 5 damages, spending my 5 crackshots in the process. With 8 ties I would have landed at most 1 or 2.

Crackshots also have an exponential effect because it can force the opponent to spend tokens they would not spend otherwise.

The 8 swarm was great in the falcon/decimator era, but now even if you do manage to block Soontir or the Inquisitor, you 'll most probably only have a couple of guns on it and it's just not enough with palp around.

Lowering the ships to 6 helps reduce formation flying mental duress.

Crackshot is undercosted and good.

Alpha Strike meta, crackshot is good.

Crackshot can help in your worst match up: Aces. Thus making the list an all-comers list. This is the best kind of list.

Though, an Academy is really helpful right now if you're a monster blocker. If you're an average player, practice the AP, but fly all PS4s for tournaments.

The 6 crackshot lists is an alpha strike list that turns into a swarm once the cracks are spent. The 8 tie swarm is just that, a swarm.

So all 3 ties blank out on dice and/or pull a direct hit?

Possible? Perhaps. Likely? I'm not certain I would say so.

You said "worst case scenario" not "likely scenario".

Spain (Madrid) just had a 7 TIE swarm win a 186 player Regional, and it had *some* crackshot in it (four):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaBvNd5-8-U

Deroche....this guy should teach a swarm flying clinic: WOW!