Now that we've seen the full ISB Infiltrator specs for both regular and elite, lets discuss them.

Are these squads, particularly the Elites, worth including in your Skirmish lists?

Regular Stormtroopers vs. Regular ISB
Points           : 6 v 5                                    : Advantage rISB
Attack Die       : Same                                     : Even
Number of Figures: 3 v 2                                    : Advantage rStormtroopers
Attacks per Turn : Both Usually 3                           : Advantage rStormtroopers (because of positioning and they still get 2 after 1 figure dies)
Health Per Figure: 3 v 4                                    : Advantage rISB
Group Health     : 9 v 8                                    : Advantage rStormtroopers
Surge Abilities  : ISB have Hide                            : Advantage rISB
Other Abilities  : Stomtrooper Re-roll                      : Advantage rStormtroopers
Defense Die      : Black v White                            : Depends

Regular Stormtroopers vs. Elite ISB
Points           : 6 v 7                                    : Advantage rStormtroopers
Attack Die       : Same                                     : Even
Number of Figures: 3 v 2                                    : Advantage rStormtroopers
Attacks per Turn : Both Usually 3                           : Advantage rStormtroopers
Health Per Figure: 3 v 6                                    : Advantage eISB
Group Health     : 9 v 12                                   : Advantage eISB
Surge Abilities  : ISB have Hide, Deadly, 2 Damage, Pierces : Advantage eISB
Other Abilities  : Stomtrooper Re-roll                      : Advantage rStormtroopers
Defense Die      : Black v White                            : Depends

Elite Stormtroopers vs. Elite ISB
Points           : 9 v 7                                    : Advantage eISB
Attack Die       : Same                                     : Even
Number of Figures: 3 v 2                                    : Advantage eStormtroopers
Attacks per Turn : Both Usually 3                           : Advantage eStormtroopers
Health Per Figure: 5 v 6                                    : Advantage eISB
Group Health     : 15 v 12                                  : Advantage eISB
Surge Abilities  : ISB have Hide, Deadly, 2 Damage, Pierces : Advantage eISB (though eStormtroopers have +3 Acc)
Other Abilities  : Stomtrooper Re-roll, Focus on Death      : Advantage eStormtroopers
Defense Die      : Black v White                            : Depends

Regular Stormtroopers vs. Elite ISB
Don't need to do this one: eStormtroopers cost more but are way better.

This all depends on how easy it is to use the Coordinated Raid ability to get 3 attacks per turn (which means one of them won't be able to move). If you're only getting 2 attacks per turn then they aren't very good at all.

The Spy trait is an interesting angle too. Seems like Bespin will introduce some good Spy cards, but there are already great Trooper cards like Grenadier and Reinforcements.

Yeah I think you have to factor in command cards for Spies; some of the ones we've seen so far are really good (though, as you said, there are some really good Trooper ones too). All in all they look pretty balanced, and you'll probably just have to figure out how each one fits into your list and strategy.

Another couple thoughts:

- the power of hide is hard to assess, and it makes the ISB defense a bit better than just 1 White die. The fact that you can often chain it with the bonus surge is also pretty powerful I think.

- though,as you said, the Coordinated Raid ability might be hard to pull off sometimes, it also opens up some interesting strategic options, similar to the Order ability.

- the 3 attacks per round with the ISBs come at the cost of 1 action - you still only get 4 actions with the ISBs whereas with Troopers you get 6.

Why just 3 attacks? Both ISB agents can use the raid ability fight?

no it's once per activation per group

no it's once per activation per group

Which is a shame. Considering how much worse the ability becomes when one dies, I think it would have been fine that they could both do it, while you could keep both alive.

I think it's still not to bad one model gets moved into position by a officer the other then moves into position and shoots then second model then fires and makes the other fire, if you could do both I think you might be trying to hard to get all 4 shots and probably be to powerful for it's cost. it is 2 points cheaper and 6 health isn't to bad a number per figure. overall i'm happy with the isb infiltrators and could be a bit of a shift away from all the troopers

True, and I absolutely don't think they are bad. Can't wait to try them!!

Apples and oranges honestly, unless you're not building around their trait, which seems odd to me.

That is to say I'm not going to cut stormtroopers for these in my trooper list nor would I cut ISBs for stormtroopers in a spy list.

Ya that is another thing to consider in the comparison, when a ISB agent dies you lose two attacks.. when a Stormie dies you lose an attack, but get focused on another one plus have a chance to bring him back.

That right there is a difference maker imo.. but again if we start going down the command card comparison route then we have to take into account different maps and it starts getting really complicated. I think play testing is the real method here.

Just run both

eISB x2

eSnow

eStorm

Crosstraining x2

Imp Officer x2

Rule by Fear

Good spy and trooper command cards.

I'd run it at an upcoming tourney if I didn't have my heart set on running Bossk.

Thinking about this a little further, the strength for me anyway of the trooper swarm list is that it really simplifies your command card selection and use. I know that I need heavy trooper cards or cards the would benefit the way they move and attack. If you had in ISB's, yes it gives you more variety, but it also complicates your card selection. You could also find yourself in a position where you are drawing spy cards when your spys are already dead. This is a big weakness with unique heavy lists, drawing their awesome card... when you can't even use it.

You can get cross training and make your elite Stormies into spies.

I don't think that Cross Training does enough to justify a point: because a white die is about equal to a black die if you can't re-roll unless your figure is being attacked by 4 attack die or something.

That said: I'm playing with some Imperial lists that include Troopers and Spys to see how they perform over Troopers and Leaders.

I don't think that Cross Training does enough to justify a point: because a white die is about equal to a black die if you can't re-roll unless your figure is being attacked by 4 attack die or something.

That said: I'm playing with some Imperial lists that include Troopers and Spys to see how they perform over Troopers and Leaders.

White die is better if you will be killed if you don't dodge, or if the attacker has good surges but a low chance to roll them.

I don't think that Cross Training does enough to justify a point: because a white die is about equal to a black die if you can't re-roll unless your figure is being attacked by 4 attack die or something.

The new Spy cards look quite juicy and I wouldn't mind having them in my Trooper builds. Getting access to those via a 1pt upgrade instead of a 5/7pt group of Infiltrators (that I personally consider lackluster) seems like a pretty good deal. The white die is just a little bonus thing to make it actually worth 1pt - the trait thing would be worth IDK, maybe half a point by itself.

Bottom line, the only thing Infiltrators have over Stormtroopers is the trait, and since there's Cross Training... I don't really see the point.

I don't think that Cross Training does enough to justify a point: because a white die is about equal to a black die if you can't re-roll unless your figure is being attacked by 4 attack die or something.

The new Spy cards look quite juicy and I wouldn't mind having them in my Trooper builds. Getting access to those via a 1pt upgrade instead of a 5/7pt group of Infiltrators (that I personally consider lackluster) seems like a pretty good deal. The white die is just a little bonus thing to make it actually worth 1pt - the trait thing would be worth IDK, maybe half a point by itself.

Bottom line, the only thing Infiltrators have over Stormtroopers is the trait, and since there's Cross Training... I don't really see the point.

How do you assess the value of the ability to Hide? I haven't played with it at all so I don't know how good it is; seems like an interesting mix of offense and defense to me and maybe not enough of either to have a large impact. Have you played with it at all, and if so are you able to tell how powerful it is?

I've payed a bit with Hide. It's pretty good when you have good surges (i.e. +2 Damage). The range penalty is usually not important unless you care quite far or can couple with other range penalty (Smuggler or Deflection).

Hiding your own figure is certainly more powerful than weakening an opponent's figure in all but the edge cases. It's not as good as Focus in all bud edge cases though too.

Interesting. That's about what I assumed (bonus surge is nice, range penalty has small impact). Though I imagine the range penalty must make your opponents position closer to you before attacking? Maybe that makes it better on melee units, because it draws your opponents in if they want to attack you.

So what is the ranking for conditions, in terms of how powerful it is for the person applying it? I would guess Stun>Bleed>Weaken for harmful, then obviously Focus>Hidden for beneficial. But if you combine them?

Maybe Stun>Focus>Bleed>Hidden>Weaken? Or does it depend too much on the circumstances?

SURGE: Hide gives you - 2 ACC for attacks targeting you and 1 Surge. This is the Surge you need to reactivate the Hidden condition after the attack. So treat it as an inherent - 2 ACC. In case of the Elite Infiltrators, add in a free Pierce 1. There are some remove condition effects, that make it a little worse, but in the end, that's what it is.

Being able to put Hide on other figures is a whole different thing. E.G. Hiding your Elite Heavy Stormtroopers for a given Blast2 can be devastating. In this case it is much better than a focus.

Interesting. That's about what I assumed (bonus surge is nice, range penalty has small impact). Though I imagine the range penalty must make your opponents position closer to you before attacking? Maybe that makes it better on melee units, because it draws your opponents in if they want to attack you.

So what is the ranking for conditions, in terms of how powerful it is for the person applying it? I would guess Stun>Bleed>Weaken for harmful, then obviously Focus>Hidden for beneficial. But if you combine them?

Maybe Stun>Focus>Bleed>Hidden>Weaken? Or does it depend too much on the circumstances?

The range penalty on Hide is best on units with good range that are weak otherwise (low health/defense) so they can snipe without the opponent being able to get a good shot back (at least not without spending all their movement getting closer to you and opening up a counterattack). A Hidden HK would be pretty great. Hidden units that are melee just won't be targeted at range and you'll have to spend your own movement points to close the gap. The point is to force the inequality of position: "I can attack your units without you being able to attack my figures back."

Except on powerful melee figures I think Focus > Stun. Hidden might be a bit better than Bleed (not sure yet). Otherwise I agree with your list in general. Paying surges for anything other than Stun and Focus is undesirable in most cases (usually you want damage and only use these effects when you have spare surges). This is why things like Bleed/Hidden/Weaken are best when automatically applied (Nexu & Bleed) or combined with other effects (+1 Damage & Hide on Davith).

That sounds right. Obviously, there are differences between Campaign and Skirmish as well - Stun is really good for the Imperials in Skirmish, less so for the Rebels.

That sounds right. Obviously, there are differences between Campaign and Skirmish as well - Stun is really good for the Imperials in Skirmish, less so for the Rebels.

Right, stunning a hero in the campaign is one of the best things you can do (same with Bleed). But I was ranking things for skirmish.

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but can Hide be applied to large and massive figures?
I really want to find a way to Hide my AT-ST.

Also Hide on HKs would be amazing. They can reroll for damage or range instead of surges, they got plenty of surge abilities to use and it keeps them safer from return fire which is great because they are very squishy.

Bottom line though.... Hide was designed to help out melee figures. They always suffered due to being shot at, kited or just because they are less versatile. Hide helps with at least some of those issues. Hell, even hidden Wookies could be super annoying.