My questions to you guys/gals are is the typical in your area and how do you think prize support should be done in these major events?

Is this sort of money grab a normal thing at other regionals or is this an isolated instance and i just need to travel to other regionals next time?

It seems you felt like you had a negative experience and would like validation from the internet. So, how do you think prize support should be done in these major events? And what should this particular tournament done that they did not?

for that many players they should haven given out a bunch of random ships as door prizes our FLGS had a SC caped at 24 players and gave 9 ships out as door prizes

an event that large should have given out at least 20-30 ships depending on the ship maybe more.

I don't believe the top players need more prizes and should have there names taken out of the pool as they are getting dice and other things they can sell on ebay for a stupid amount of money.

if this was done at more tournaments not just big ones I think it would be good for the game and stop people complaining where did all the money go?

i find these posts can be useful. If I'm a NorCal player and I'm considering going to a SoCal event I appreciate knowing whether or not to expect prize support at a particular venue. It will help me make a more informed decision on whether or not I want to make the investment of time and money if that's venue. It's like Yelp for X-Wing tournaments. I don't care too much about my $15 for my local regional because my investment is time and $15. On the other hand if I'm doling out travel, hotel, food, etc. its useful to known. Thanks.

Personally I think that participation and the chance to win some of the official swag is enough of an incentive to play.
I also much prefer relative small prices.
The larger the prices, the more likely some people are to approach it with a negative WAAC attitude.

Letting the Shop/Orginasier/TO earn on tournaments are in my book perfectly fair. They provide time, venue and hard work to run a tournament.

...hard work to run a tournament.

It does require work, but do not be disingenuous.

Given how much it costs to run an event like this both in terms of staff time and space and equipment rental on the day (renting a comfortable space for a hundred-player tournament costs a BUNDLE), and in the 3 to 6 months of preparation leading up to the event, I find it likely that the OP is talking complete nonsense when guesstimating the level of profit that tournaments are making. I would expect most tournaments to run at break-even levels, at best, if not to be a loss leader on getting people into the store and buying x-wing stuff.

Some of these costs are lower for a tournament being run in an existing store, but even then, there are potentially significant costs to closing your store to its normal clientele for at least a day, usually on a weekend which for most game stores would be their busiest time.

I was very pleased with prize support at all of my tournaments, especially the regional where they had a whole selection of extra prizes so that everyone came away with at least some kind of participation prize, even if it was just poundland star wars pencil sets or whatever. I'd not be disappointed to find myself without a prize; I'm paying the money to spend an entire day playing a game I enjoy against a wide range of skilled opponents. If I just wanted the swag I'd buy it on ebay.

I live in Indiana and had 3 regionals around me.

Chicago - $20 - Kit + top 32 got playmats + other things I don't completely recall

Michigan - $15 - Kit + complete old kits + someone got a raider

Ohio - $20 - Kit + old kit cards + some random drawings

I will always make the time to go to Chicago. It's ran great and the prize support is amazing. I'll likely go to Michigan as well given the lower price and great prize support. Ohio was kinda meh if you attend most tournaments and have all the participation prizes already. If I had to put them in order, Ohio would be on the bottom. Nothing against them, the tournament was ran quite well. I think the late start was the only hickup.

All that said, I can't help but look at supply and demand. They had over 100 players show up and pay $25 with no additional prize support. Clearly it being regionals alone is enough for people to pay that. If I owned that business, I wouldn't change a **** thing. That's basic economics.

All that said, I can't help but look at supply and demand. They had over 100 players show up and pay $25 with no additional prize support. Clearly it being regionals alone is enough for people to pay that. If I owned that business, I wouldn't change a **** thing. That's basic economics.

Yeah, and things like these tournaments are very much a buyers market. No one needs to go, it's not like you have to place well in a SC to go to Regionals or well at Regionals to go to Nationals or even Worlds.

No one is required to go, so if you don't think the value is worth it then don't go. But don't expect them to change what they're doing just because you don't like it, especially when they have 100+ people showing up and willing to pay what they're asking for.

one thing people forget with posts like this is also when a store is running a very large tourney and it has 100+ people in the store. This also limits the amount of none event going people can get into the store. This is a massive impact on some stores, and I can see them needing to pay for more staff to be on duty that day and people doing extra hours to cover events that start at 9 in the morning and go onto midnight or later.

one thing people forget with posts like this is also when a store is running a very large tourney and it has 100+ people in the store. This also limits the amount of none event going people can get into the store. This is a massive impact on some stores, and I can see them needing to pay for more staff to be on duty that day and people doing extra hours to cover events that start at 9 in the morning and go onto midnight or later.

I understand this argument, but I think it can vary widely by store. Many stores I've gone to that are capable of supporting regionals has a dedicated play area that allowed for the average person to come in and still have a decent shopping experience. I also think that potential lost sales are offset by gained sales from the X-Wing players themselves. At the regionals I attended, I saw players buying non tournament related things all day. A big event is also great advertisement for the game itself. At our tournament last week, a random person in the store watched a game then bought the core set. Boom, new player and new sales.

I don't think these stores are hurting by this event at all. They don't do this out of the goodness of their hearts. These stores fight for the chance to hold an event. It's a huge income opportunity. It's not like these stores are saying "ok, i guess if nobody else will run it I will".

All that said, I can't help but look at supply and demand. They had over 100 players show up and pay $25 with no additional prize support. Clearly it being regionals alone is enough for people to pay that. If I owned that business, I wouldn't change a **** thing. That's basic economics.

I do not know how good of an argument that it here. The supply, an event, is artificially limited by a 3rd party that doesn't stand to gain anything from the host's profit. Sure, you could argue that stores won't host them if they lose money in the process, but I have not seen any legitimate claims that stores that hold regionals and do not retain a substantial amount of the entry fees lose money. Based on the number of of stores that want to hold regionals and are not selected, I doubt that it is a losing venture.

It may be that a regional host, given the right circumstances (i.e. being the only one in an area), could charge $50.00 per person and not see a large decline in attendance. Is that healthy for the game? Is that what the players want? Is that what FFG, which controls the regionals, wants?

I do not know the answer to the questions that I posed, but everyone who is claims that this thread is a "witchhunt" or that they do not like players speaking out against stores that host tournaments is simply not taking the time to actually think before they type. It is appropriate to discuss what players expect from X-Wing tournament hosts and it is appropriate to criticize hosts who are not providing what players want. This is all information that FFG can consider in the future to make what it believes is the best environment for players.

I do not know the answer to the questions that I posed...

Neither do I. The only way to find out is to have some Regionals charge $10 and provide lunch and door prizes, and have others charge $25 (or $50) and do nothing but hand out prizes from the Regionals kit.

In fact, I suspect both approaches might be viable: one is running the event out of their marketing budget, hoping to build goodwill and name recognition as well as simply getting bodies in the door. The other is attempting to make a profit on the event itself. Neither is objectively wrong.

...but everyone who is claims that this thread is a "witchhunt" or that they do not like players speaking out against stores that host tournaments is simply not taking the time to actually think before they type.

Sure, you and the people who agree with you are the only ones even thinking. That seems like a plausible description of reality.

It is appropriate to discuss what players expect from X-Wing tournament hosts and it is appropriate to criticize hosts who are not providing what players want. This is all information that FFG can consider in the future to make what it believes is the best environment for players.

The assumption here is that FFG is interested or particularly cares what the forums have to say about it. In fact, the entire point of establishing tournament guidelines is so that you don't have to monitor stores individually. There's no shortage of stores queueing up to buy Regionals kits, so clearly owners/organizers see value in them. Maximizing that value, or not, is up to the store--and to its customers. Which is why announcing on an international forum that you think the store should have kept less of what (the OP assumes to be) its profit for the event is... It's not that it's bad or wrong, but I just don't see the point.

I am used to stores not trying to make huge profits from running these events and giving back to the gaming community. Obviously the store should recoup added labor costs paying for people to run the business and judges. Even that added in the store easily pocketed $2500 running this event.

Depends on what else the store had to buy to support the event.

For example, for the regionals at Portland, the store had to buy a dozen more game mats for the event, to make sure there would be enough for all tables. As I'm sure everyone is aware, those aren't cheap

That's an investment. I doubt the store factored in the initial costs of chairs when it ran its first event.

You expect the store to regularly get 24+ players for X-Wing? Because otherwise, those mats are going to be sitting around unused until the next regional a few years later.

Not much of an "investment".

This weekend is regionals for me. $35 a ticket. For 3 days. That seems like a good price to me.

I am also not obliged to enter those tourneys.

No one said anything about forcing you or anyone to attend any tournament.

I know. I'm explaining my reason as to why or why not I would enter a tourney. $25 with minimal prize support motivates me to find something better to do with my time and money.

OK fair enough. So where is the tipping point? What percentage of the entry fee has to go to prize support for you to enter and feel like you got your money's worth? Do you have to have a reasonable chance to make back your money? What is a reasonable profit for the organizer?

I would say 75%. But remember that the store offering 75% of the entry back as store credit or merchant still nets them profit.

Say they give someone $50 store credit. The store will profit off whatever that person uses it for. I am not privy to price margins. But I know places are not selling things at cost. If they give out plenty of prize and I don't get anything. So be it, I should play better.

If you are a store owner and you aren't turning a handy profit from hosting a Regional X-Wing event you're doing it all wrong. These tournaments don't really require extra staff in store. Unless those 100 people are buying things and you need extra help at the register and that's money in pocket anyway. Mats purchased are bought wholesale not msrp and can be given away as prizes or retained (still have value). Smart organizers ask players to bring their own. Chair and table rental represents a significant outlay of cash. Stores also don't pay msrp for the prizes they give away. Frankly stores should make enough in concessions to pay for expenses. The question is do stores want to entreat themselves to potential customers vs line their pockets? It's up to them and that's fine but I'd still like to know which are which. That's the value of this thread.

The assumption here is that FFG is interested or particularly cares what the forums have to say about it. In fact, the entire point of establishing tournament guidelines is so that you don't have to monitor stores individually. There's no shortage of stores queueing up to buy Regionals kits, so clearly owners/organizers see value in them. Maximizing that value, or not, is up to the store--and to its customers. Which is why announcing on an international forum that you think the store should have kept less of what (the OP assumes to be) its profit for the event is... It's not that it's bad or wrong, but I just don't see the point.

The point is getting other people's opinions. I'm also sure some TOs might see this thread and reevaluate things. Especially if their event drew less than expected. Word of mouth is powerful. Some places will see constant decline of attendance if they do a poor job of taking care of the customer.

Have you considered giving feedback directly to the hosting store? You might be more likely to see a change if you speak to them rather than coming onto the forums. If the store made a healthy profit, and received no negative feedback, they're likely to do the exact same thing next time. Better yet, if you have some great ideas, why not offer to help run events for them. Be the change that you want to see.

The point is getting other people's opinions. I'm also sure some TOs might see this thread and reevaluate things. Especially if their event drew less than expected. Word of mouth is powerful. Some places will see constant decline of attendance if they do a poor job of taking care of the customer.

Ummmm...have any regionals had lower attendance than expected?

I've recommended to our store to double the entry fee in some kind of attempt at culling the number a bit, if it runs the event again - as it is, we completely filled the store, AND had a waiting list, at $15 a head. Clearly that wasn't high enough to reduce demand to the number of slots the store could create an opening for.

...but everyone who is claims that this thread is a "witchhunt" or that they do not like players speaking out against stores that host tournaments is simply not taking the time to actually think before they type.

Sure, you and the people who agree with you are the only ones even thinking. That seems like a plausible description of reality.

I really dislike posts like this. It always seems like a witch hunt against stores that are willing and able to run large events.

I completely agree.

You honestly see this thread as a "witch hunt" and do not see the value of players voising concerns over the fixed costs to participate in X-Wing Regionals? If so, then I can't see how you can claim to have though about it before you posted.

You do not think that FFG reads the forums?

You do not think that the forums are the appropriate place for players to raise and discuss issues with FFG sanctioned events?

You do not think that players can have a legitimate basis to question the level of profit that an event host selected by FFG profits from hosting the event?

FFG does read the forums (as evidence by it responding to discussions that occur here). This is also the best place to discuss issues relating to FFG events because players who attend, participate in, and discuss FFG events congregate here (and likely in larger numbers than anywhere else). Finally, players' concerns regarding events sanctioned by a business should be raised to the business. FFG is perfectly capable of responding to legitimate concerns and ignoring "witch hunts." By being aware of potential issues that players have, FFG can take steps to avoid conflict in the community and alienating players.

But, maybe you did think about it. Why do you believe that this thread is a "witch hunt?" Because the OP posed a question for the community to discuss that involved a specific event that actually occurred? Because the OP presented his impression of facts relating to that event? What is it? What is so wrong with this thread that all of the positives that come from discussing issues in front of FFG are overridden?

It is appropriate to discuss what players expect from X-Wing tournament hosts and it is appropriate to criticize hosts who are not providing what players want. This is all information that FFG can consider in the future to make what it believes is the best environment for players.

The assumption here is that FFG is interested or particularly cares what the forums have to say about it. In fact, the entire point of establishing tournament guidelines is so that you don't have to monitor stores individually. There's no shortage of stores queueing up to buy Regionals kits, so clearly owners/organizers see value in them. Maximizing that value, or not, is up to the store--and to its customers. Which is why announcing on an international forum that you think the store should have kept less of what (the OP assumes to be) its profit for the event is... It's not that it's bad or wrong, but I just don't see the point.

The assumption? Since when is that an assumption? FFG employees have admitted to reading the forums and decisions of FFG have been reversed following community outcry on the forum (e.g. cross-faction dial rules).

FFG sets the rules for the events that it sanctions. Nothing stops FFG from imposing requirements or restrictions on location that host regional tournaments.

The fact that you do not see the point is why I accused you of not thinking. Maybe you truly believe that FFG does not benefit from customer feedback - or maybe not.

But, maybe you did think about it. Why do you believe that this thread is a "witch hunt?" Because the OP posed a question for the community to discuss that involved a specific event that actually occurred? Because the OP presented his impression of facts relating to that event? What is it? What is so wrong with this thread that all of the positives that come from discussing issues in front of FFG are overridden?

Have you considered giving feedback directly to the hosting store? You might be more likely to see a change if you speak to them rather than coming onto the forums. If the store made a healthy profit, and received no negative feedback, they're likely to do the exact same thing next time. Better yet, if you have some great ideas, why not offer to help run events for them. Be the change that you want to see.

I did that last year for a regional I attended. They were very defensive and inattentive. So this year I didn't go. Neither did other people I guess. Smaller attendance this year.

Has anyone looked to compare attendance numbers for stores?

I am also not obliged to enter those tourneys.

No one said anything about forcing you or anyone to attend any tournament.

I know. I'm explaining my reason as to why or why not I would enter a tourney. $25 with minimal prize support motivates me to find something better to do with my time and money.

OK fair enough. So where is the tipping point? What percentage of the entry fee has to go to prize support for you to enter and feel like you got your money's worth? Do you have to have a reasonable chance to make back your money? What is a reasonable profit for the organizer?

There is no percentage that has to go to prize support for me to enter and feel like I got my money's worth. Spending the day playing X-Wing is getting my money's worth. Paying the entry fee to enter a tournament is not an investment, it's supporting the store and persons that took the time to organise it and provide a place big enough to host it. The organiser can make all the profit he wants. Hosting a 100+ players tournament is no small task.

100% this.

112 people attended, there was 2 judges and the TO. There was no additional people in the store except for the cashier who they would normally have.

That is incorrect. The store had 3 or 4 employees present at all times during the first day. None of those employees were part of the TO staff. They opened early and closed late to accommodate the tournament. The store is normally busy on Saturdays with most of the tables taken up by card games, and other miniature games players. The sections of the store that are normally used for RPG, board games, and painting/modeling were filled with tables for X-Wing as well. The store had had flyers posted weeks in advance telling their regular customers to not even bother coming in on Saturday unless they were attending the event.

Outside of the X-Wing tournament the store was essentially closed. Other than $25 per person what revenue did the store bring in for the entire day? I know I didn't spend anything. I didn't see many other players buying stuff while they were there either. This isn't like throwing a local tournament, where the cash you spend to give fat prize support is likely to come back to you in the form of loyal customers. How many of those players from LA, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and elsewhere are ever going to show up in that store to shop? Even if it had zero prize support, it was an expensive event for a game store to host.

It was a well run event, everyone I know that attended had a good time.

**EDIT, CAUSE I WANTED TO ****

As many of you know, I am not a fanboy of the FLGS. I support the good ones and trash the bad ones and am fairly indifferent to those that fall in-between.

On this subject, it is my opinion that the LGS is performing a service to their gaming community. They should be using promotions to generate ancillary sales and not use the entrance fee as profit.

Stores that I don't perceive as offering a good value won't get my business. Luckily for me, almost every store in the Chicago area DOES provide a good value for my money so yes, I am spoiled. (It was a similar boat in Miami from which I moved a year ago, so a store being douchey is luckily the exception rather than the rule)

As far as the store being closed for the tournament, that's an interesting take. In my opinion, there is a special place in hell for store owners that charge for table space - so that's not a loss for them. RPG players don't spend money except on snacks and if you are reasonable you'll do quite well in snack / drink sales on tournament days.