I have a rules question that I think you guys might be able to help me with.

In the EotE book, it says initiative checks are either simple cool or simple vigilance. In the skill section for vigilance, it says that threat can be used to make a character miss a small piece of information and that despair can be used to limit a character to a single maneuver in their first round of combat.

My question pertains to the nature of initiative and difficulty dice. Does this imply there will be a time when an initiative vigilance check is at something other than simple, perhaps maybe during a well concealed ambush being sprung on the party? I do see it says vigilance difficulty can be modified based on likelihood of the incident occurring (found in the skill section), but does that apply to vigilance initiative as well?

I would really appreciate any information or opinions on the matter. It has got me all kinds of confused.

Initiative is always a Simple check, meaning no Difficulty dice. However, that doesn't mean you can't alter the situation some.

A Destiny Point can upgrade a character's initiative check, adding a Difficulty, and you're free to add Boosts and Setbacks to initiative checks based on the circumstances.

For instance: are the PCs surrounded by enemies that all have their blasters drawn? Give the bad guys a Boost or two on their Cool checks, to represent the advantage.

Did the PCs set up a Cunning ambush? Give them some Boosts and the bad guys some Setbacks to their checks!

Vigilance is used any time the character has to respond to an unexpected change. The only thing that makes the Initiative use of Vigilance different is that by default an Initiative check is Simple. But other than that, just treat it like any other skill check, meaning you can modify it to suit the situation as you need.

Adding to that: Usually cool is the prefered thing to roll. Which means the guys who ambush someone already have one big advantage, because they roll their cool, while the others have to roll vigilance. Except naturally when the opposed vigilance vs stealth check make that ambush not as ambushy as the ambushers would have liked and potentially switching the prey to the hunters or at least put both sides on equal footings and make roll everyone on their cool instead.

What they said. I've found myself planning out encounters where the PCs' Vigilance checks included one or more difficulty dice to try and replicate an ambush situation - rather than have them roll Vigilance vs. Stealth then another Vigilance check for initiative.

Keep in mind that Vigilance is the skill PCs use for noticing things casually while Perception is for when they're actively looking for them. Mentioning threat deals more with that use of Vigilance than it does Initiative checks.

Adding to that: Usually cool is the prefered thing to roll. Which means the guys who ambush someone already have one big advantage, because they roll their cool, while the others have to roll vigilance. Except naturally when the opposed vigilance vs stealth check make that ambush not as ambushy as the ambushers would have liked and potentially switching the prey to the hunters or at least put both sides on equal footings and make roll everyone on their cool instead.

Personal preference.

Rolling Vigilance is not a disadvantage. Rolling Cool is not an advantage. It's easier to get boost dice to Vigilance than it is Cool, for instance.

Also, in a combined game, it's worth noting that Force and Destiny lists Vigilance as the default Initiative skill. Cool, accordingly, is used for social combat, instead, and for when the character has carefully prepared an ambush.

Adding to that: Usually cool is the prefered thing to roll. Which means the guys who ambush someone already have one big advantage, because they roll their cool, while the others have to roll vigilance. Except naturally when the opposed vigilance vs stealth check make that ambush not as ambushy as the ambushers would have liked and potentially switching the prey to the hunters or at least put both sides on equal footings and make roll everyone on their cool instead.

Personal preference.

Rolling Vigilance is not a disadvantage. Rolling Cool is not an advantage. It's easier to get boost dice to Vigilance than it is Cool, for instance.

Also, in a combined game, it's worth noting that Force and Destiny lists Vigilance as the default Initiative skill. Cool, accordingly, is used for social combat, instead, and for when the character has carefully prepared an ambush.

Which fits the setting in FaD as well. So yeah, I have to admit that my post was written with the mindset of ace player who plays within the AoR campaign settings mostly, which means combat is expected and not something you "run into", thus a lot of the specs come with cool and favorize cool over vigilance.

Though I would be interest the hear the source boost dice for vigilance, it hard to imagine for me getting easier boost dice for vigilance than for cool, especially as simply using advantages from a stealth check for seem to be a good source for tons for boost to cool.

That is part of what confuses me also Ghost Warlock, because the skill description of perception says that it "represents the character's constant, passive state of awareness." I have heard other people say vigilance can be used to casually spot stuff too, but it read to me like that was the purview of perception. Is there a sidebar or something somewhere that contrasts them for spot checks? I should also note I only have Edge of the Empire and haven't read any of the other books. Thanks in advance guys, this has been really helpful.

Adding to that: Usually cool is the prefered thing to roll. Which means the guys who ambush someone already have one big advantage, because they roll their cool, while the others have to roll vigilance. Except naturally when the opposed vigilance vs stealth check make that ambush not as ambushy as the ambushers would have liked and potentially switching the prey to the hunters or at least put both sides on equal footings and make roll everyone on their cool instead.

Personal preference.

Rolling Vigilance is not a disadvantage. Rolling Cool is not an advantage. It's easier to get boost dice to Vigilance than it is Cool, for instance.

Also, in a combined game, it's worth noting that Force and Destiny lists Vigilance as the default Initiative skill. Cool, accordingly, is used for social combat, instead, and for when the character has carefully prepared an ambush.

Which fits the setting in FaD as well. So yeah, I have to admit that my post was written with the mindset of ace player who plays within the AoR campaign settings mostly, which means combat is expected and not something you "run into", thus a lot of the specs come with cool and favorize cool over vigilance.

Though I would be interest the hear the source boost dice for vigilance, it hard to imagine for me getting easier boost dice for vigilance than for cool, especially as simply using advantages from a stealth check for seem to be a good source for tons for boost to cool.

The Uncanny Reactions talent occurs on the Force Sensitive Exile from EoE, the Force Sensitive Emergent from AoR, and a few of the specs in F&D, such as Hunter and Seer. Each rank grants a boost die to Vigilance. By picking a few thematically related trees, you can easily stack this talent to 6-8 ranks.

I'm not aware of any talent in either EoE or F&D that adds a boost to Cool, but there might be one in AoR (haven't really looked). The closest I can find is the Sense Emotions talent that grants a single boost die to a few social skills, but Cool doesn't received a boost from the talent. Even if Cool was affected, Sense Emotions is unranked so it maxes out at one boost die.

Not a boost die, but the Seek force tree has an upgrade that allows a character to commit a Force die to upgrade Vigilance checks once. Not aware of any Force powers that do likewise for Cool.

That is part of what confuses me also Ghost Warlock, because the skill description of perception says that it "represents the character's constant, passive state of awareness." I have heard other people say vigilance can be used to casually spot stuff too, but it read to me like that was the purview of perception. Is there a sidebar or something somewhere that contrasts them for spot checks? I should also note I only have Edge of the Empire and haven't read any of the other books. Thanks in advance guys, this has been really helpful.

Edit: okay, it's the 3rd bullet point in F&D (2nd in EoE & AoR?):

Sometimes a character may have a chance to

notice small but important details in his surroundings while not specifically looking for them.

In this case. the GM might have the player make a

Vigilance check to see if his character notices this.

The players are your puppets, dangle them above a pit of despair!

Never forget that you must treat them like the scum they are.

Also, remember to make sure they have fun.

Sometimes a character may have a chance to

notice small but important details in his surroundings while not specifically looking for them.

In this case. the GM might have the player make a

Vigilance check to see if his character notices this.

That explains it! That bullet point is absent from the Edge of the Empire version. They also reworded the threat and despair section to say the target loses his/her/its free maneuver on its turn instead of the first round of combat. Makes much more sense now. Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, I really appreciate it. Same goes for everybody else in the thread.

In related news, though, the first bullet point for Vigilance in all three books talks about how Vigilance is the skill to use for initiative "outside of those times when a character has patiently prepared to begin the engagement."

So, accordingly, it seems that Cool would just be used for initiative in social combat and for ambushes.

Edit: Additionally, I've combed through AoR and there isn't a talent in there for adding boost dice to Cool checks. There are a couple other talents (Situational Awareness and Heightened Awareness) that add boost dice to allies' Vigilance checks, however, so there's a couple other ways to stack crazy modifiers to initiative if you can get your buddies on board with the idea.

So, accordingly, it seems that Cool would just be used for initiative in social combat and for ambushes.

Why would social combat be different? You could still be "ambushed" by a change in tone, a reveal of new information, an accidental cultural affront, etc.

So, accordingly, it seems that Cool would just be used for initiative in social combat and for ambushes.

Why would social combat be different? You could still be "ambushed" by a change in tone, a reveal of new information, an accidental cultural affront, etc.

Honestly, it's only different because the books says that's what Cool is used for, in addition to initiative for ambushes and resisting some other social skills.

If multiple characters are engaging a third in a social discussion in which the timing of the argument matters, Cool may be used to determine Initiative, as that character is better prepared

If multiple characters are engaging a third in a social discussion in which the timing of the argument matters, Cool may be used to determine Initiative, as that character is better prepared

The key words seem to be "that character is better prepared". If a character is not prepared, they would use Vigilance.

I have definitely used Cool for more situations than just ambushes. I would say that if the characters reasonably expect a fight, such that they have had time to get themselves in the mindset and have had to stay calm beforehand as they deal with the anticipation of a fight, it might be Cool. If they're surprised, it's Vigilance. Of course, that isn't to say that the Rebel commandos stalking through an "abandoned" research facility wouldn't roll Vigilance when attacked by something, on edge or not. But if you say, "OK squad, we don't know what's on the other side of that door, but it's probably Imps, so stay frosty and go in with your guns ready", that's Cool, even though you aren't sure there will be combat. My two cents, anyway.

Regarding Cool being the "better skill", my FaD group seems about 50/50 on which they prefer. Ironically, my Hunter player who loves setting up ambushes and lining up shots is terrible at Cool, with only one green die to show for it, while his Vigilance is amazing. I usually get around that by letting him take a free shot to "begin" the combat before everyone rolls initiative when he's prepared really well, or otherwise representing it by giving him some benefit with initiative. Commanding Presence, though, removes a Setback from Cool checks, so that's an option of your GM likes to mess with your ambushes.

As to other uses of Vigilance, I sometimes call for Vigilance checks during social interactions (or roll them secretly) to determine if my PCs intuit some hidden motivation or analyze some bit of personality that the players themselves aren't reading into the NPC's dialogue or actions. Vigilance can also be used when, say, taking a jaunt around a new city to take in the culture - it might let your PC notice that everyone seems scared of the guards and the shopkeepers look distressed.

Regarding Cool being the "better skill", my FaD group seems about 50/50 on which they prefer. Ironically, my Hunter player who loves setting up ambushes and lining up shots is terrible at Cool, with only one green die to show for it, while his Vigilance is amazing. I usually get around that by letting him take a free shot to "begin" the combat before everyone rolls initiative when he's prepared really well, or otherwise representing it by giving him some benefit with initiative. Commanding Presence, though, removes a Setback from Cool checks, so that's an option of your GM likes to mess with your ambushes.

Which skill a character prefers likely has a lot to do with which skill they received as a career/spec skill at the beginning of the campaign - it's rare to have both skills as career skills unless you pick up multiple specs. As such, most players will probably just take ranks in whichever one they have and they aren't likely to put ranks in the other unless they feel like they're continually at a disadvantage as a result.

The only careers that offer both skills for all specializations are the Commander and Guardian careers.

Otherwise, only six other career/specializations combos offer them both: Hired Gun - Demolitionist, Mystic - Makashi Duelist, and four of the Smuggler specs (Charmer, Gambler, Gunslinger, and Scoundrel).

I can understand, on a cognitive level, why there are two different Initiative stats but on a more visceral level it seems like a terrible idea. Most of the people I play with are D&D converts who are used to loading up perception-type skills to mitigate unpleasant surprises, thus Vigilance. Why should they be penalized with a lower Initiative rating when they set up an ambush (if they haven't invested equal/greater ranks in Cool)?

The way I've understood Vigilance and Cool is like this.

Vigilance is the skill you would use when you are prepared for the unexpected (i.e. being the ambushee/the one getting ambushed or remembering that piece of gear you needed on a mission)

Cool is the skill you would use when you are prepared for the expected (i.e. laying in wait to be the ambusher/the one doing the ambushing or waiting for the right moment during a negotiation to turn the tables or allowing someone to be overly kind and charming only to see right through it)

The sidebar on pg.199 on Cool or Vigilance is a pretty good explanation of it and the initiative explanation on pg.198 is pretty simple. SFC Snuffy, I've always let my players use Cool or Vigilance when they are ambushing someone, as the last paragraph in the sidebar on pg.199 mentions.

Now, the OP posted about threat and despair on Vigilance checks and how that would apply to an initiative check (typically, Simple). If you wanted to bring in a difficulty for sneaky ambushers, then I would have those who are actively scanning their environment or on guard duty make a Perception vs. the ambusher's Stealth check. I would have those who are sleeping or doing something other than scanning the environment for threats make a Vigilance vs. the ambusher's Stealth check. Those who succeed on the Perception or Vigilance check will be able to make a Cool or Vigilance check (their choice) for initiative and those who failed make a Vigilance check for initiative applying any advantage / threat or triumph (can get a free maneuver in the first round, but still no more than 2) / despair (can only spend one maneuver in the first round).

Thoughts?

Zszree

I can understand, on a cognitive level, why there are two different Initiative stats but on a more visceral level it seems like a terrible idea. Most of the people I play with are D&D converts who are used to loading up perception-type skills to mitigate unpleasant surprises, thus Vigilance. Why should they be penalized with a lower Initiative rating when they set up an ambush (if they haven't invested equal/greater ranks in Cool)?

Because in essence they have build paranoid cowards who are in constant survival mode and switching between flight and fight mode

One is being on the guard, while the other is about being on the prowl.

On a more serious note, one prevents to be overwhelmed on the battlefield and keep it cool and react right, while the other is keeping it together when surprised and being prepared for everything. I don't dislike the idea even when I might not be totally sold on that part of the system either.

Cool only used for ambushes? Then you're missing out

Honestly, I wouldn't roll blaster in the above instance. Hitting a target at 30 feet? That's pretty easy for a gun slinger. Now, doing so while being more badass than the other man? That's a Cool roll all the way.

The great thing about Initiative in this system is that you can shuffle around who goes when. So, yes, you do want to mostly roll high, so that you get to control the battlefield. However, in my opinion, the thing you want most is to get both the first and last initiative slots. Why? Because this means that you can set things up so someone goes twice in a row. Depending who that is, it can be huge.If you have three players on a starship, let's say Pilot, Mechanic and Gunner. The pilot can use his actions and maneuvers to set up the gunner for a great shot at the end of the round, right? Well, next round the gunner goes first, so he basically gets two rounds of attacks, right in a row, with whatever bonuses the pilot gave him.

Also, Kestin, remember that your Hunter, while he might roll crummy for initiative, if he's a one-shot, one-kill kinda guy, he can use someone else's initiative slot.

Cool only used for ambushes? Then you're missing out

Honestly, I wouldn't roll blaster in the above instance. Hitting a target at 30 feet? That's pretty easy for a gun slinger. Now, doing so while being more badass than the other man? That's a Cool roll all the way.

Actually fly casual has rules for such showdowns and shootouts and cool is indeed one of the major skills to determine the outcome. It not the only way to do it, coercion, deception, perception and streetwise might give you significant advantages as well for the final check who draws first and who shoots first via a simple competitive cool check. (hint, the loser of that cool check draws first, but shoots last). (Fly Casual, p. 85)

The whole mechanic is another example of the wonderful idea that most things, but not all can be achieved by multiple ways and skills and usually based on at least two different characteristics. While cool is here the most important part, the check can heavily influenced by other checks as well.