Quote of the year right there! I guess people don't remember back when swarms of PS 1 ships ruled the day. I fly low pilot skill ships a ton and yet I still win many games. WEIRD! There is a HUGE upside to lower PS flying. Blocking, better use of tokens, open flying lanes. I find it hilarious that VI is sooooooo popular! Why in the $&@) would I fill my elite slot with VI when I could use predator and wreck stuff??? The only ships that I have ever really reached for VI for obvious reasons are phantoms and Turr Phennir.

Have you ever actually flown a 1v1 PS9 Vader versus a PS11 one, which was the original statement? I have, multiple times, on both sides of that equation. It really isn't pretty for the PS9 one. There's a reason I almost always throw VI on him, he really doesn't need his elite talent. He draws enough hate as it is so I like to keep him comparably cheap, and then suckerpunch them with the other ships in my list.

What I wouldn't give to get rid of this absurd idea that arc dodging is 100% effective all of the time.

A well flown Vader with engine is **** close to it, nevermind that ATC is almost cheating when you only have one target. In a 1v1 I would not put good odds on any other ship unless they had a turret. I've taken a one hull Vader and killed a full health Poe with R2-D2, think I got shot like once or twice in a dozen rounds of combat.

Really depends on how experienced the pilot flying against him is. All you need is to correctly guess his manoeuvre and get him in the 'fun zone', where his boost and BR do sh*t all for him. It's do-able, maybe not for a newer pilot, but if you know how to fly against aces and use the obstacles to your advantage it's a win-able fight. Obviously the PS11 Vader still has the advantage, but it's not as hopeless as I often see people making it out to be.

If you go full retard, it's not AC, but Sensor jammer you want.

And Jax as a wingman.

You gotta see the faces they make when they've spent their precious Focus tokens and then can't do hell to his asthmatic majesty! or can't do HELL because Jax says nope

Quote of the year right there! I guess people don't remember back when swarms of PS 1 ships ruled the day. I fly low pilot skill ships a ton and yet I still win many games. WEIRD! There is a HUGE upside to lower PS flying. Blocking, better use of tokens, open flying lanes. I find it hilarious that VI is sooooooo popular! Why in the $&@) would I fill my elite slot with VI when I could use predator and wreck stuff??? The only ships that I have ever really reached for VI for obvious reasons are phantoms and Turr Phennir.

Have you ever actually flown a 1v1 PS9 Vader versus a PS11 one, which was the original statement? I have, multiple times, on both sides of that equation. It really isn't pretty for the PS9 one. There's a reason I almost always throw VI on him, he really doesn't need his elite talent. He draws enough hate as it is so I like to keep him comparably cheap, and then suckerpunch them with the other ships in my list.

What I wouldn't give to get rid of this absurd idea that arc dodging is 100% effective all of the time.

A well flown Vader with engine is **** close to it, nevermind that ATC is almost cheating when you only have one target. In a 1v1 I would not put good odds on any other ship unless they had a turret. I've taken a one hull Vader and killed a full health Poe with R2-D2, think I got shot like once or twice in a dozen rounds of combat.

Really depends on how experienced the pilot flying against him is. All you need is to correctly guess his manoeuvre and get him in the 'fun zone', where his boost and BR do sh*t all for him. It's do-able, maybe not for a newer pilot, but if you know how to fly against aces and use the obstacles to your advantage it's a win-able fight. Obviously the PS11 Vader still has the advantage, but it's not as hopeless as I often see people making it out to be.[/quote

I'm not saying that a PS 11 arc dodging Vader would be a fight I would choose but I don't think it's a death sentence. Experience and tactics are more important then Barrel roll and boost.

PS9 Vader vs PS11 Vader, how often does this happen? Why argue a tiny corner case. Every build-out of a ship is going to have some weakness. Personally I've never flown Vader but it seems like a 35 pt Lone Wolf SD Vader would be good.

PS9 Vader vs PS11 Vader, how often does this happen? Why argue a tiny corner case. Every build-out of a ship is going to have some weakness. Personally I've never flown Vader but it seems like a 35 pt Lone Wolf SD Vader would be good.

With the popularity of Palp aces it isn't really out of the realm of possibility. Lone wolf can be great especially if Vader is alone but I think Predator or Juke are better for an entire game.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Chips only work once per round making them with Cluster Munitions a poor choice.

PS9 Vader vs PS11 Vader, how often does this happen? Why argue a tiny corner case. Every build-out of a ship is going to have some weakness. Personally I've never flown Vader but it seems like a 35 pt Lone Wolf SD Vader would be good.

With the popularity of Palp aces it isn't really out of the realm of possibility. Lone wolf can be great especially if Vader is alone but I think Predator or Juke are better for an entire game.

For me Vaders issue isn't really damage output (Predator) it's survivability. Predator is better if you roll two blanks on offense vs a low PS ship or you don't have a focus. From what I've seen playing against him these are fairly uncommon. Lone Wolf on the other hand helps every time you roll a blank on defense (as long as you don't crowd Vader which if you fly him with Palp shuttle and another Ace shouldn't be too tough). I see a lot of blank greens, in fact almost every time I defend.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Chips only work once per round making them with Cluster Munitions a poor choice.[/quote

It also takes you mod slot so no engine which is great on Vader. AC seems good enough modification for clusters.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor.

Even without the ordnance, I think that Alozen with Juke could have some legs if you have other things in the list you don't want getting shot at. He's also low enough PS that aces are going to really need to think about spending their focus token when they are attacking but high enough that lower PS generics won't have stripped him of his token yet. Vader is likely to be shooting at ships that still have tokens to spend.

With ATC and Juke, he's only 28 points.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor.

Even without the ordnance, I think that Alozen with Juke could have some legs if you have other things in the list you don't want getting shot at. He's also low enough PS that aces are going to really need to think about spending their focus token when they are attacking but high enough that lower PS generics won't have stripped him of his token yet. Vader is likely to be shooting at ships that still have tokens to spend.

With ATC and Juke, he's only 28 points.

Zertik Strom is also a fun one to play around with. He makes R1 engagements much less scary for you and much worse for them.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Chips only work once per round making them with Cluster Munitions a poor choice.

It's free, so it's never a poor choice.

You have two 3-dice attacks, if you roll 0-1 hits you use accuracy corrector and get 2 hits + juke, and if you roll 2 hits you use chips to get 3 hits + juke. Don't knock it till you've tried it, I've one(technically two)-shotted Poe twice with that Vader build. It hits like a train, especially if you get the block.

I ran a Juke Vader tonight for the first time. (I usually run either Predator or Outmaneuver on him.) It was fun, but I was missing the ATC much of the game. I had Sensor Jammer, and I never really used it. I faced another Vader (Outmaneuver + ATC + Engine), Juno, and The Inquisitor. I had initiative, and both Vaders were PS 9. Outmaneuver would not have done me any good in that game; Only my game-ending shot was made out of arc. Juke helped a little bit, but ATC would have made a world of difference.

PS9 Vader vs PS11 Vader, how often does this happen? Why argue a tiny corner case. Every build-out of a ship is going to have some weakness. Personally I've never flown Vader but it seems like a 35 pt Lone Wolf SD Vader would be good.

PS 10 vs 11 Vader:

I should watch this thing again and see if there are instances where Juke+Turtle Vader would have made a difference vs ATC Vader.

Love this thread, completely useful.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Chips only work once per round making them with Cluster Munitions a poor choice.

It's free, so it's never a poor choice.

You have two 3-dice attacks, if you roll 0-1 hits you use accuracy corrector and get 2 hits + juke, and if you roll 2 hits you use chips to get 3 hits + juke. Don't knock it till you've tried it, I've one(technically two)-shotted Poe twice with that Vader build. It hits like a train, especially if you get the block.

Yes, sorry I didn't mean it that way. yes in the case its free, its a worth while investment. But where it only works the once, on the first set of missiles, and then doesn't work to modify the second set of missiles from the cluster missiles, that is where I'm not sure that another choice over cluster missiles isn't a better option.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Chips only work once per round making them with Cluster Munitions a poor choice.

It's free, so it's never a poor choice.

You have two 3-dice attacks, if you roll 0-1 hits you use accuracy corrector and get 2 hits + juke, and if you roll 2 hits you use chips to get 3 hits + juke. Don't knock it till you've tried it, I've one(technically two)-shotted Poe twice with that Vader build. It hits like a train, especially if you get the block.

Yes, sorry I didn't mean it that way. yes in the case its free, its a worth while investment. But where it only works the once, on the first set of missiles, and then doesn't work to modify the second set of missiles from the cluster missiles, that is where I'm not sure that another choice over cluster missiles isn't a better option.

Some lists like U-Boats obviously benefit from ordnance. Most times while running Vader lists I don't think that the one turn I get from ordnance makes up for a persistent upgrade that can make your ace more deadly or more durable. 3-5 points spent on one shot just doesn't seem to make that big a dent especially if it's between EU or a missle on Vader I'm going to choose EU.