I have been toying with the newer Juke Vader for the last few weeks in my casual games and have been very pleased with the results. In my first game with it I was up against a Marksmanship Corran who Vader demolished prior to a sure double tap. Since the advanced fix I have been like everyone else running the ATC Vader set up which can be very devastating but sometimes leads to reaching for that TL which leaves you pretty vulnerable and relying on greens. Vader isn't cheap in this set up either because I always want to go for Predator making him 33/37 with EU. A solid ship for sure but focused fire still does quick work if the greens are against you.

My juke list is Vader+Accuracy Corrector+Juke for 31/35 with EU. This set up see's Vaders survivability go up significantly. I think not only because of full defense but because people see tokens stacked and they just don't want to waste shots against him when softer targets are around. I don't recall this happening so much with ATC Vader since he could potentially unleash holy heck on people and didn't have the full turtle going. He was target #1, not terrible to beat but too dangerous to let hang around and worth a chunk of points. My last two games with Vader have seen him live to the very end of the game which has been rare for me to see that.

My questions for the mathwingers is if there has been anyone look into the difference between Juke Vader and ATC Vader. Since Juke is much more effective with no focus its going to wildly variant I'm sure. That also plays into its benefit since Vader is going to strip that focus token for sure. Vader shooting at 9 means he is extremely likely to have that evade handy for Juke to go off also, it's seems made with him in mind. Coming in at 2 points cheaper these days is huge for the empire since that can mean something like Autothrusters on Soontir or Inquis. So far I have been extremely impressed with this Vader variant but I wanted to know if The math bears it out.

I don't know about the math but a juked Vader made top 16 in the Madrid regional (~200 people) so at the very least it seems solid enough.

The math is pretty complicated because it is so target dependent. Generally, though, it looks strong because Juke is strong when Accuracy Corrector is weak (against high AGI targets). This build supports Cluster Missiles pretty well, too. You Target Lock and Juke for your actions, and does two 2-hit attacks that each knock down a target's Evade to an eyeball.

Why not both? ATC leaves your EPT free, you have those nice second actions ... no one says you have to use both every round. Vader + Title + ATC + Juke (with or without Engine Upgrade) gives you lots of options based on target set.

I like Vader with Juke, AccCor, and ClusterM. The only real downside is you need to build your list around juke, otherwise it's not that beneficial. This is my favourite list with Juke Vader, designed to max out on juke:

35 Vadar w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> Wrecks face.

31 Alozen w/ Juke, ClusterM, Chips, X1, AccCor. ---> See above.

22 Omega w/ Juke, Comms. ---> Solid, Cheap(ish) juke carrier.

12 Academy. ---> Blocky McBlockson, denies actions to help Juke and setup R1 shots with Vader and Alozen

It's a pretty tough list that can out-joust almost anything. The only thing to note is that this Vader isn't much of ace without engine, he's more like a jouster. You could sub out ClusterM and chips for engine on Vader if you want a better endgame ship, though I prefer the list as is.

Why not both? ATC leaves your EPT free, you have those nice second actions ... no one says you have to use both every round. Vader + Title + ATC + Juke (with or without Engine Upgrade) gives you lots of options based on target set.

This.

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

If you're going the Juke AC build I'd actually consider Juno.

Why not both? ATC leaves your EPT free, you have those nice second actions ... no one says you have to use both every round. Vader + Title + ATC + Juke (with or without Engine Upgrade) gives you lots of options based on target set.

This.

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

I would go ATC+Juke for a Palp build (Since palpatine's ability makes up for the weaker defense), but for a triple ace build AC+Juke starts to look attractive.

Why not both? ATC leaves your EPT free, you have those nice second actions ... no one says you have to use both every round. Vader + Title + ATC + Juke (with or without Engine Upgrade) gives you lots of options based on target set.

This.

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

The reason you would go for Accuracy Corrector is the action inneficiancy that often arises with ATC if you have to switch targets regularly. It's also a pain when you really need to turtle up.

I would go ATC+Juke for a Palp build (Since palpatine's ability makes up for the weaker defense), but for a triple ace build AC+Juke starts to look attractive.

The points premium for triple aces is what makes the Juke+AC Vader seems like a good options vs the more expensive ATC builds. Two points can make a difference in another ship that's makes the trade off even more attractive. I just always seem to get tons of hate directed at Vader. People see him and want him dead. Maybe it's deep seated feelings from childhood. A more defensive Vader who can still put the hurt on a focus-less target seems solid. More play testing will be needs to see if he can pull the weigh that ATC Vader brings.

I fly with Juke, Engine, and Sensor Jammer, he's a pretty tough nut to crack.

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

Lay out, for me the novice, how this list looks and how you get the "one auto crit+2 more red dice and an evade"please. I like! Or, as Vader would put it, "....impressive. Obi Wan has taught you well."

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

Lay out, for me the novice, how this list looks and how you get the "one auto crit+2 more red dice and an evade"please. I like! Or, as Vader would put it, "....impressive. Obi Wan has taught you well."

It's fairly straightforward...

Vader with ATC gets an autocrit if he has a target lock on his target.

He also rolls 2 red dice for his attack (3 at range 1).

If he has juke (or someone has a shot on him) he took an evade as one of his actions.

Two auto hits with an evade to focus change vs. one auto crit + 2 more red dice and an evade to focus for 1 more point and the periodic cost of an unspent target lock.

I say if you can squeeze in that 1 point, take the ATC.

Lay out, for me the novice, how this list looks and how you get the "one auto crit+2 more red dice and an evade"please. I like! Or, as Vader would put it, "....impressive. Obi Wan has taught you well."

It's fairly straightforward...

Vader with ATC gets an autocrit if he has a target lock on his target.

He also rolls 2 red dice for his attack (3 at range 1).

If he has juke (or someone has a shot on him) he took an evade as one of his actions.

I get it; I might have been overthinking it; as I get into this games strategies deeper and deeper, sometimes I miss things and sometimes I think I've missed things and haven't. Thanks!

I ran this setup on Vader so nights ago and, other than the dice sucking, it was fun and kept him flying. What do you like to run with him with these mods?

Hmmmmmmmmm. Worth thinking about. But ... Can a PS9 vader EVER beat a PS11 vader in the end game? I think not.

Vader vs Vader would think AC+Juke Vader would be great against PS 11 Vader. The juker will have Focus and evade against all the PS 11 attacks making him very durable and the PS 11 will have to evade at least 2 hits every single turn.

Vader vs Vader would think AC+Juke Vader would be great against PS 11 Vader. The juker will have Focus and evade against all the PS 11 attacks making him very durable and the PS 11 will have to evade at least 2 hits every single turn.

then the PS 11 Vader deserves to die if he is flying that bad, when in truth you use the PS 11 to avoid those 2 hits every turn

That's just down to arc-dodging high PS; that it's two Vaders have little to do with it.

Vader vs Vader would think AC+Juke Vader would be great against PS 11 Vader. The juker will have Focus and evade against all the PS 11 attacks making him very durable and the PS 11 will have to evade at least 2 hits every single turn.

then the PS 11 Vader deserves to die if he is flying that bad, when in truth you use the PS 11 to avoid those 2 hits every turn

Vader vs Vader would think AC+Juke Vader would be great against PS 11 Vader. The juker will have Focus and evade against all the PS 11 attacks making him very durable and the PS 11 will have to evade at least 2 hits every single turn.

then the PS 11 Vader deserves to die if he is flying that bad, when in truth you use the PS 11 to avoid those 2 hits every turn

What I wouldn't give to get rid of this absurd idea that arc dodging is 100% effective all of the time. It's nonsense.

Quote of the year right there! I guess people don't remember back when swarms of PS 1 ships ruled the day. I fly low pilot skill ships a ton and yet I still win many games. WEIRD! There is a HUGE upside to lower PS flying. Blocking, better use of tokens, open flying lanes. I find it hilarious that VI is sooooooo popular! Why in the $&@) would I fill my elite slot with VI when I could use predator and wreck stuff??? The only ships that I have ever really reached for VI for obvious reasons are phantoms and Turr Phennir.

I've been doing something similar on Vasal this weekend. 3/5 so take that as you will. Vader with outmanuever engine acc procket. 39 point vader... But it does work pretty well. The really trick is getting enough enough position play vs other ace builds to impose the inevitable condition of procket/many attacks to do the work. I think this is a comprable set up to the juke vader. I feel like your Vader sans procket has no reach. The procket lets you really leverage your game plan with these odd ball Vader builds. I call this Vader... Darth Accountant

I've been doing something similar on Vasal this weekend. 3/5 so take that as you will. Vader with outmanuever engine acc procket. 39 point vader... But it does work pretty well. The really trick is getting enough enough position play vs other ace builds to impose the inevitable condition of procket/many attacks to do the work. I think this is a comprable set up to the juke vader. I feel like your Vader sans procket has no reach. The procket lets you really leverage your game plan with these odd ball Vader builds. I call this Vader... Darth Accountant

Prockets means that in a 3 ace list one of the others, mainly Inquis or Soontir lose out on defense like an auto-thrusters or maybe Soontirs Hull or shield which I have found are very good for his survivability. I feel really nervous putting much more than 35 give or take a couple points into a small ships. Even one that is a hard nut like Vader. The new Defenders can perform at 35-40 points but most smalls can't do that.

I've been doing something similar on Vasal this weekend. 3/5 so take that as you will. Vader with outmanuever engine acc procket. 39 point vader... But it does work pretty well. The really trick is getting enough enough position play vs other ace builds to impose the inevitable condition of procket/many attacks to do the work. I think this is a comprable set up to the juke vader. I feel like your Vader sans procket has no reach. The procket lets you really leverage your game plan with these odd ball Vader builds. I call this Vader... Darth Accountant

Outmaneuver is a card that merits revisiting. It used to be straight up worse than Predator, but now against most aces, particularly with Palpatine, it's practically as good as an extra damage.

Knuckle, Inquisitor with procket is 34. Which leaves 27 points. Omega Leader with a 1 point PS bid. Or something squirrelly, like Zeta Leader or a bomber or who knows what. 39 points Vader is a tough deal to squad build with. This idea came about from looking at a 40 point Rexlar... Pushthose points to the limit fellas!

Knuckle, Inquisitor with procket is 34. Which leaves 27 points. Omega Leader with a 1 point PS bid. Or something squirrelly, like Zeta Leader or a bomber or who knows what. 39 points Vader is a tough deal to squad build with. This idea came about from looking at a 40 point Rexlar... Pushthose points to the limit fellas!

I do like Omega Leader but don't count him as elite as inqy or Soontir. I will give your Vader a shot and see what happens. I'm finding that Vader isn't as one dimensional as everyone made him out to be once ATC arrived.

I've been doing something similar on Vasal this weekend. 3/5 so take that as you will. Vader with outmanuever engine acc procket. 39 point vader... But it does work pretty well. The really trick is getting enough enough position play vs other ace builds to impose the inevitable condition of procket/many attacks to do the work. I think this is a comprable set up to the juke vader. I feel like your Vader sans procket has no reach. The procket lets you really leverage your game plan with these odd ball Vader builds. I call this Vader... Darth Accountant

Outmaneuver is a card that merits revisiting. It used to be straight up worse than Predator, but now against most aces, particularly with Palpatine, it's practically as good as an extra damage.

This is also an interesting thought. Prior to the raider I ran Vader with outmaneuver and found it pretty strong on a ps 9 dodger. I haven't tried it with AC or ATC that I can recall. This could be a diamond in the rough.

Quote of the year right there! I guess people don't remember back when swarms of PS 1 ships ruled the day. I fly low pilot skill ships a ton and yet I still win many games. WEIRD! There is a HUGE upside to lower PS flying. Blocking, better use of tokens, open flying lanes. I find it hilarious that VI is sooooooo popular! Why in the $&@) would I fill my elite slot with VI when I could use predator and wreck stuff??? The only ships that I have ever really reached for VI for obvious reasons are phantoms and Turr Phennir.

Have you ever actually flown a 1v1 PS9 Vader versus a PS11 one, which was the original statement? I have, multiple times, on both sides of that equation. It really isn't pretty for the PS9 one. There's a reason I almost always throw VI on him, he really doesn't need his elite talent. He draws enough hate as it is so I like to keep him comparably cheap, and then suckerpunch them with the other ships in my list.

What I wouldn't give to get rid of this absurd idea that arc dodging is 100% effective all of the time.

A well flown Vader with engine is **** close to it, nevermind that ATC is almost cheating when you only have one target. In a 1v1 I would not put good odds on any other ship unless they had a turret. I've taken a one hull Vader and killed a full health Poe with R2-D2, think I got shot like once or twice in a dozen rounds of combat.