In casual play I would let it fly as the opponent. In tournament play I would request a neutral party (e.g. Marshall) to make the call.

As long as we hold ourselves strictly to the rules we don't have to worry about what someone else says. The hardest for me was to let it go when I forgot something. When I'd say "****, I forgot to do X", a lot of the time my opponent would be fine with me rewinding the clock to do it. This is a slippery slope though, when I reply that it was my fault that I forgot it and would have to live with it, it lets my opponent know that even in a fun casual game I feel the rules count.

I'm not a rules Nazi, I like the idea of house rules and think it's great for people who have bought the game to make it their own. That said, even house rules need to be understood by everyone and followed uniformly.

The rules are how we play a balanced game. If one of the players does not play by the rules then they are creating an imbalance.

The better question is, what standard do you hold yourself to?

The picture does clearly show part of the base off the table. But this brings up a follow-up question beginning to crop up in my playgroup and it appears to apply here. Does the shield dial going over the edge of play count as going off table? If it counts for overlapping obstacles then I would think it counts for going off the table too.

The picture does clearly show part of the base off the table. But this brings up a follow-up question beginning to crop up in my playgroup and it appears to apply here. Does the shield dial going over the edge of play count as going off table? If it counts for overlapping obstacles then I would think it counts for going off the table too.

See previous page; it doesn't. There are rules page quotes and everything.

Everything I've seen says shield dials do not count as part of the base

The picture does clearly show part of the base off the table. But this brings up a follow-up question beginning to crop up in my playgroup and it appears to apply here. Does the shield dial going over the edge of play count as going off table? If it counts for overlapping obstacles then I would think it counts for going off the table too.

See previous page; it doesn't. There are rules page quotes and everything.

Ah. Too impatient for my own good. Sorry.

A part of me is all about RAW. An outsider looking in would prob think calling that off the table as dikkish. But...

On one hand, these movement tools get alot of movement play in them after lots of use.

On the other, I've seen some un/intentional tool slotting practices.

So all in all, it evens out for me...sort of a mental justification...its off the table. Don't want to risk this close of a call?, don't fly your ships dangerously close.

Don't want to risk this close of a call?, don't fly your ships dangerously close.

This.

There is scorching hot space lava laser beams of death sharks and zombie monsters if you are over the edge. DO NOT GET CLOSE TO THE EDGE. It is dangerous out there.

Don't want to risk this close of a call?, don't fly your ships dangerously close.

This.

There is scorching hot space lava laser beams of death sharks and zombie monsters if you are over the edge. DO NOT GET CLOSE TO THE EDGE. It is dangerous out there.

Ok so, the scariest environment imaginable. Thanks, that's all you gotta say, scariest environment imaginable.

I will say to use your common sense. There is out of the edge and there is that case. Yes by the rules, it is out but it is like less than 1 millometer by the picture. Now, I know in tournament, common sense is often thrown out of the window especially by those who benefit from enforcing the rules but I dont play in tournament so this is just my humble gamer opinion.

What would you do if you were the Rebel player in this situation?

I'd let you leave the Star Destroyer on the table.

Here's the thing: the movement tool isn't perfect, and neither are humans. Unless you were able to move every ship with fraction-of-a-millimetre precision throughout the entire game, it seems churlish to suddenly insist on fraction-of-a-millimetre precision now. If I didn't care you were out by a mm or two on turn three, then I shouldn't care now. Especially given that accuracy in previous turns could have prevented this position now.

EDIT: And was the mat regulation size? Was it exhaustively measured, with precision, in millimetres, out to five decimal places? Are we sure that all edges of the mat are exactly, with no exceptions, 914.4mm from the opposite edge? There are so many variables that could result in such a tiny portion of the base being over the edge. You might win some bits of plastic by insisting it's removed and winning the game, but you certainly won't win any friends.

In a competitive game the ship comes off the board. The rules are very clear in this situation.

In a fun game the ship likely still comes off the board, albeit with much mocking of piloting skills in a good natured manner. But hey you screw up you lose your ship.

Now in a tourney prep game, likely what we do is have the ship redo his movement. Tourney prep for us is all about having your opponent play optimally so you can gauge how your list performs. Flying off the board is NEVER optimal.

EDIT: And was the mat regulation size? Was it exhaustively measured, with precision, in millimetres, out to five decimal places? Are we sure that all edges of the mat are exactly, with no exceptions, 914.4mm from the opposite edge? There are so many variables that could result in such a tiny portion of the base being over the edge. You might win some bits of plastic by insisting it's removed and winning the game, but you certainly won't win any friends.

If you and I are playing on the same mat, with the same imperfections it matters not. You are free to use my tools and I yours after all, so there is no inherant advantage or disadvantage to either of us here.

If flying off the board bothers you then don't use the board edge and avoid it. If you or your opponent flies off the board remove the model and take a hard learned lesson. Flying down the board edge can be a great tactical advantage, so accept the risks that come from that or don't. Generally I can fly at the table edge and use it to limit my opponents ability to flank my ships, I could fly 90 degrees or so in the other direction and never come close to the board edge. If your opponent flies close to the sun, then if he finds like Icarus he has made a mistake he shouldn't expect you to offer him a choice. He should just remove the ship, he shouldn't expect anything from you but to follow the rules.

Sportsmanship firstly is following the rules, that is the social contract you enter with your opponent. Trying to convince someone that they are being a poor sport for following the social contract you agreed to at the start of the game is terrible. If they then allow you return the ship to play that is their choice, and you can think more of them for that, but don't expect that or require that to happen at any time.

Keep in mind too that at a tournament the social contact extends to other people, if you allow your opponent to stay on the board and he wins with a great MOV and then wins the tournament haven't you just created a situation where he didn't get the placing he deserved but also that the guy in second/third may also missed out on a result they deserved?

... you should be enforcing the rules on yourself, and not blaming your opponent in any way, or making him feel bad for his win.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I think you've misunderstood the point of Nerd Rage's post; I don't think he's blaming the opponent at all. Or if he is, it's not a bad thing; the guy was playing himself!

Essentially, Nerd Rage is asking about the ethos and ethics around the game, the spirit in which it is played, and how strictly rules are enforced by the community. I think he's trying to work out what he should expect at tournament level (correct me if I'm wrong Nerd Rage!) in such instances, and that's a very reasonable, and interesting, question

Yes, exactly. Thank you.

The better question is, what standard do you hold yourself to?

I don't think this was a direct question to me but just to clarify; if I ever found myself in this situation as the offending player, I would voluntarily remove my ship without hesitation.

A part of me is all about RAW. An outsider looking in would prob think calling that off the table as dikkish. But...

On one hand, these movement tools get alot of movement play in them after lots of use.

On the other, I've seen some un/intentional tool slotting practices.

So all in all, it evens out for me...sort of a mental justification...its off the table. Don't want to risk this close of a call?, don't fly your ships dangerously close.

Good point about the maneuver tool. We use a tool with enough play in it to easily cause a ship to be placed an extra mm or two in one direction or the other, even unintentionally.

The rule book has entries addressing the fact that movement and placement are not exact.

MANEUVER TOOL (Rules Reference pg. 7): If the maneuver tool cannot be placed on the play area because it would overlap a ship or squadron, the player should hold the maneuver tool above the play area and estimate the final position of the moving ship.

MARGIN OF ERROR (Tournament Rules pg. 5): Ships and squadrons are sometimes moved accidentally or placed inexactly during the normal course of the game. A small margin of error is allowed in the position and orientation of ships and squadrons in these situations so that the pace of the game is not unnecessarily affected. Players should not abuse this margin of error, and they must use the tools included with the game to be as accurate as possible...

Here's an entry that gives some degree of discretion on rules enforcement to the players (at least when it comes to remembering to use card effects).

MISSED OPPORTUNITIES (Tournament Rules pg. 5): Players are expected to play optimally, remember to perform actions and use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he or she cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his or her opponent...

I wonder if this off the board by a mm incident happened in a tournament, and the non-offending player said their opponent could keep the ship, would that be allowed? I mean if a tournament judge was standing right there, aware of what was occurring, would he or she allow this? This is a question because of the above referenced rules entries indicating that small margins of error in movement and placement are allowed.

We know that movement and placement are not exact, and there will be many times where close enough is the best a player can do, so a mm here or there can be forgiven. But does this allowed margin of error cease to exist precisely at the edge of the play area?

In my solo game I did not hesitate to remove the ISD the moment I realized it was placed off the board by approximately one mm. Unencumbered with concerns about whether or not I was being unfair or a jerk, removing the ship, even though it was only one mm over the edge, seemed most natural and correct to me.

I know which direction I naturally tend towards but at the same time I can see reasons why that might be considered a bit boorish. I think this basically comes down to the player's expectations, and so I was curious what the Armada community consensus would be.

From the responses posted so far, it looks like for most players it would be within accepted practice to ask your opponent to remove their ship, even if only one mm off the board.

If you and I are playing on the same mat, with the same imperfections it matters not. You are free to use my tools and I yours after all, so there is no inherant advantage or disadvantage to either of us here.

Equality matters not.

Precision is what matters. When this player made a slightly imperfect move on turn two, the result of which was exaggerated with every move, and resulted in this ship being ever-so-slightly over the edge, did his opponent insist that he correct the ships position?

If the mat was even 1mm short, then this ship is technically not off the board. The play area is precisely 914.4mm square, regardless of the size of the mat. Did anyone pull out a micrometer to measure the play area?

No. Because that level of precision didn't matter. We all shuffle things around. The maneuver tool has a lot of flex and play in it, and picking up and putting down ships multiple times over the course of the game results in imperfections, which don't matter until you run into a situation like this where suddenly that fraction of an inch DOES matter.

If you've been sloppy and accepting of fraction-of-a-millimetre errors during the game, it's pretty poor form to suddenly insist on it when it's going to win you the game. Yes, the rules allow it and there is no 'except when it's only a little bit over' caveat. Over is over, and over is destroyed. But I would 100% think less of my opponent if they insisted on millimetre precision in this instance where they hadn't before.

Keep in mind too that at a tournament the social contact extends to other people, if you allow your opponent to stay on the board and he wins with a great MOV and then wins the tournament haven't you just created a situation where he didn't get the placing he deserved but also that the guy in second/third may also missed out on a result they deserved?

Allow me to answer a question with a question. Due to some flex in the maneuver tool, on turn three the player was 2mm further right than he should have been. Now, on this turn, his ship is in. On turn three, when his opponent didn't notice and didn't bother checking or correcting that 2mm-too-far maneuver, did HE cheat the guys in 2nd/3rd place?

We have to accept that this is a game that cannot be played to pixel perfect maneuvers like you can on Vassal.

If you and I are playing on the same mat, with the same imperfections it matters not. You are free to use my tools and I yours after all, so there is no inherent advantage or disadvantage to either of us here.

If you've been sloppy and accepting of fraction-of-a-millimetre errors during the game, it's pretty poor form to suddenly insist on it when it's going to win you the game.

It's your measuring tool. The edge of the board is pretty clear. Why on earth is it my responsibility to do anything here?

You flew off the board, the rules are clear, why insist on some alteration to the rules when it is going to lose you the game?

Being a good sport isn't about playing friendly when it suits you. Its playing fair when it doesn't.

I more or less agree with the general consensus - dead ship in a tournament or league game, live ship in a friendly game.

And Chuckle, I have to refute your point because it unravels the rules of the game. Following your logic, any time a ship is within millimeters of anything, you have an argument. A ship is 1mm out of range? Well, maybe the maneuver tool placed me 2mm "off" last turn, so I should be in. A ship is 1mm in range? Well, maybe my maneuver tool placed me 2mm "off" last turn, so I should be out. In competitive play, you must have a clearly defined limit with no wiggle room whatsoever. It's unsporting and against the spirit of competitive play to wrangle with your opponent because since you're only "slightly" off, you should be allowed to keep your ship. In competitive play, you are in or out. It is a binary situation. This is an absolute. I'm 100% Sith on this issue. And ultimately it comes down to this - the player chose to fly that close to the edge. They took the risk, and it turned out against them.

But anything outside of a tournament, it's up to the players. If there's nothing on the line, who cares what the end result is? In a situation like this, I'd say keep it fighting. It's not way off and, as you said, the maneuver tool has a lot of wiggle to it. Besides, I'd rather see how I do against the list, not the mistake. And it gives me a perfect scapegoat to heckle my opponent with if I ultimately lose (I'm a heckler, what can I say?). In casual play, I'm 100% for whatever makes the game more dramatic, and usually err in favor of fun. If I'm stomping my opponent and his wounded ship is limping away, but we can't tell whether I have range, it's out. If my opponent's ISD-II is 1mm away from shooting a Corvette with no defense tokens, it's in. Blow that puppy up! I'm generally in favor of more explosions, anyway.

I thought about this a little: and then I thought about something I used to do a whole lot of while I was in high school/college (airsoft).

We generally played this way: if you're ever unsure about anything, just take the worst of it. Keep your friends, save yourself the argument, and keep it fun.

I would 100% think less of my opponent if they insisted on millimetre precision in this instance where they hadn't before.

And I would 100% think less of my opponent if they forced me or the TO to enforce a very clear rule, instead of just sucking it up and picking up their own ship when they flew it off the table.

I don't take free shots just because "it's super close."

I don't fudge placement on overlapping just because "it's super close."

And I don't leave ships on the board if they fly off the mat just because "it's super close."

Don't want to risk this close of a call?, don't fly your ships dangerously close.

This.

There is scorching hot space lava laser beams of death sharks and zombie monsters if you are over the edge. DO NOT GET CLOSE TO THE EDGE. It is dangerous out there.

Ok so, the scariest environment imaginable. Thanks, that's all you gotta say, scariest environment imaginable.

Ha, ha,haha,ha...

"do you even know who Chewbacca is...?"

[re-watched Armageddon this morning! ]

Stupid rule.

Just my opinion but it's really stupid.

But it is THE LAW and you must obey THE LAW.

I would only count a ship "off the board" if it was at least 50% off the board. Did that in X-Wing and didn't penalise a Tie because 1mm of its base was over the edge. Then again, my games are mostly friendly anyway. At a LGS I'd let the opponent decide. If he/she will judge a tiny smidgen of a base over the edge as off then NO MERCY!

I would only count a ship "off the board" if it was at least 50% off the board. Did that in X-Wing and didn't penalise a Tie because 1mm of its base was over the edge. Then again, my games are mostly friendly anyway. At a LGS I'd let the opponent decide. If he/she will judge a tiny smidgen of a base over the edge as off then NO MERCY!

Totally hate what the sentence in red insinuates. Maybe its just my personal perception. Being friendly is looser adherence to the rules, and unfriendly is adherence to the rules.

This next bit has nothing to do with the OP, but it triggered an additional thought: Sometimes the 'Abhorers of Competitive' play are worse than the 'Must Win Turbo Dudes'. And I don't mean 'Win-At-All-Costs-Even-Cheat-Dudes'.

Let me tell you what rules lenience leads to...disappointment. There WILL be a time that you will NOT be afforded the rules lenience you gave to your opponent in the very same game. And it will sour you. No. I take that back. I don't mean to generalize. Maybe it won't bother you. But it bothers me. And to avoid those disappointments, I try to play the straightest I can, even REMINDING my opponents of negative results against me...to a fault. As a result, I'm going to hold my opponent to tighter play. Playing a game is a process between players that builds and sways off each others interaction with the rules, units and counterplay. If a person doesn't want to respect the outcome of his actions within the process, it diminishes the process for everyone involved.

GAH! I'm ranting again.

I really need to get the heck off the forums. Sorry. A nerve has been hit with the recent post activity on here and I can't help but puke my opinion all over it.

OP, I wrote all this about that red sentence. All the above isn't about YOU. Even though they are your words, I disassociated you from them (figuratively) while writing.

...

When it comes to Rules... I'm with you.

The Rules for the Game, (And consequently, the rules for the Tournaments) set aside, number one and foremost, a consistent play experience. Adherence to the rules means I know what I am expecting wherever I go, whoever I play with.

Ergo, I will only suffer disappointment in a game where the rules are not being adhered to.

Perhaps that's why I am the way I am in the Rules sub-forum... I want at least this game, where I have a mere modicum of influence amongst the populace, to have consistency of play experience.

Clarity:

Friendly as in between friends or playing solo. Not friendly as in I'm a nice guy so be nice to me.

The rules are the rules and MUST be obeyed. Except where both parties agree to not penalise the tiny smidgen of corner of a base just slightly over.

My Edit:

So if friendly is forum code for I'm a spineless rules burner; what is the correct word for the following explanation:

Most of my games are played in a home environment. When gaming against myself I don't enforce the edge rules for anything less than 50% of a ship leaving the board. My friends and I enjoy each other's company and are perfectly happy to play by the rules. Including the edge rule. But we employ that ancient code of if it's not a game determining situation, and if it's just a near whoops, don't worry. How we play is our business, and common sense and good sportsmanship works both ways, but we'd never do that at a store or tournament where the book is rightly unbreakable immutable law.

I thought friendly was what that long paragraph meant but clearly I'm typing gibberish.