Equality matters not.Precision is what matters. When this player made a slightly imperfect move on turn two, the result of which was exaggerated with every move, and resulted in this ship being ever-so-slightly over the edge, did his opponent insist that he correct the ships position?If the mat was even 1mm short, then this ship is technically not off the board. The play area is precisely 914.4mm square, regardless of the size of the mat. Did anyone pull out a micrometer to measure the play area?No. Because that level of precision didn't matter. We all shuffle things around. The maneuver tool has a lot of flex and play in it, and picking up and putting down ships multiple times over the course of the game results in imperfections, which don't matter until you run into a situation like this where suddenly that fraction of an inch DOES matter.If you've been sloppy and accepting of fraction-of-a-millimetre errors during the game, it's pretty poor form to suddenly insist on it when it's going to win you the game.

Are you kidding me? You argue that we should all be using wholly inaccurate tape measures AND then post this twaddle?

I really need to get the heck off the forums. Sorry. A nerve has been hit with the recent post activity on here and I can't help but puke my opinion all over it.

Frankly

This is my first day on the forums and to get a scathing tirade over a sentence makes me think this is not a group of people I want to be around.

You can disagree with a sentiment but you don't have to be a total **** about it!

Store Patron #1: Do you guys have Armada Tourneys here?

Store Patron #2: /shakeshead Oh no, we only play friendly games of Armada here. The <Insert other store name> has competitive play, but only friendly games here. Sorry.

I really need to get the heck off the forums. Sorry. A nerve has been hit with the recent post activity on here and I can't help but puke my opinion all over it.

Frankly

This is my first day on the forums and to get a scathing tirade over a sentence makes me think this is not a group of people I want to be around.

You can disagree with a sentiment but you don't have to be a total **** about it!

Um, lol. Dude. You might want to reread what I wrote at the end. I was very explicit about where it all came from.

You can take it with me privately as well. You became offended about nothing. After you reread it, we can continue down whatever path you choose.

I really need to get the heck off the forums. Sorry. A nerve has been hit with the recent post activity on here and I can't help but puke my opinion all over it.

Frankly

This is my first day on the forums and to get a scathing tirade over a sentence makes me think this is not a group of people I want to be around.

You can disagree with a sentiment but you don't have to be a total **** about it!

Some are just very precise with things. If you accept there is a lot of OCD about, you will find there is a good crowd on here.

Welcome to the forums and long may you stay.

(I realise I post this after having a go at Chucknuckle, but understand that he repeatedly argues that the manouver tool should be replaced by a tape measure. Never answers questions asking why.)

You fly off the table, the ship is destroyed. Them's the rules. I acknowledge that ships do get bumped around and there is some definite imprecision in the game. But think of all the times a ship may have been in or out of range (when making or receiving an attack, using an ability that goes out to X range, commanding squadrons, etc.) just BARELY. Do you argue that earlier bumps and such made it possible or impossible? Probably not. Yet these things can decide a game. Imprecision is just something you need to accept.

If I'm playing a game against a newer player, I give them all kinds of concessions. They can do some take-backsies and I give them the benefit of the doubt. I would let a newer player keep his ship that barely flew off the table still on the table. That's fine. Otherwise, no. My buddies and I definitely play for fun, but we're also competitive and we stick to the rules. If my ship ever barely flies off the table, it's destroyed. Period. If there's a lesson for me to learn there while considering imprecision it's to be more mindful of it in the future so my ship might not barely fly off the table again.

What perpetually makes me smirk is that people will drive 65 in a 50 zone to make it in time for their match, then insist that their opponents follow a game's rules to the letter because 'you have to follow rules'. Games are super cereal guyz.

In the end, it doesn't bother me too much one way or another.

What perpetually makes me smirk is that people will drive 65 in a 50 zone to make it in time for their match, then insist that their opponents follow a game's rules to the letter because 'you have to follow rules'. Games are super cereal guyz.

In the end, it doesn't bother me too much one way or another.

I don't Drive.

This country won't let me.

It's not always about you Dras .

Seriously though, the above wasn't even a hypothetical: multiple counts, multiple people. Rules and laws are selectively followed every day and enforced with varying degrees of leniency.

It is always about me after all!

(I realise I post this after having a go at Chucknuckle, but understand that he repeatedly argues that the manouver tool should be replaced by a tape measure. Never answers questions asking why.)

Gee, sorry if that makes you angry.

A tapemeasure is 1) cheaper 2) allows greater variation and 3) allows greater consistency.

It's one of my greatest peeves with this game that they have three ways of measuring distance. Range, speed distance, and normal distance. A fighter squadron and a capital ship both moving at speed 2 move different distances and require handling two different tools. An unpleasant side effect of the 'everything you need for the game comes in the box' philosophy is that the range of attacks is limited not by what the designers thought would make the best game, but by how long a range ruler they could fit in the box. Simply using centimetres (or inches for you weird Imperial types) would improve the game dramatically IMO.

But how I'd have called it is simple: If that was my ship, take it off because I need to learn how to give orders and my helmsmen needs to stop taking piloting lessons from Robert Hichens. If it's my opponent's ship, it's fine (unless they're enforcing such rules or ask for it as a learning experience. Then no mercy, no respite). I want every mistake I make to be pointed out because it makes me a better player and I can really use that experience. But I'm not going to take advantage of something that petty to win. If a support leg of the base is off the table, sure. Even if just half of it is off, then removing it is all well and good, but this is splitting hairs on par with "your X-wing cannon has broken off. Remove Luke from the game immediately, it was altered!"* I don't buy the binary black and white Lawful Neutral mentality. That said, I expect a TO to be exactly that.

That's exactly where I fall on the issue as well.

It's not always about you Dras .

...

It is always about me after all!

I'm sure, if Inter-city Transport and Road Conditions were up to Snuff, it would be about me more often Since we'd get to play

Ain't that the truth Dras. I might like a lot of this country's stuff, but the roads ain't one of them I've been saying a zip-line rail would have been perfect, given population distribution, for nearly 20 years and parents more than 20 before that.

I'll honestly admit I love the Armada tools and such, it just works for me and it feels right. But sometimes I wonder about the propensity to follow rules. I'm completely on board with educating people about the rules and informing them of such, and likewise I do my best to follow the rules so that I can hold myself to the standards that I'd wish to be measured against. I want to learn, but if that means someone is forcing me to put tokens next to my ship base instead of on the ship token, or on the card, then that will get my proverbial goat.

At the end of the day it really is about playing a game set in the Star Wars universe and having fun. How that happens will vary from person to person, thus there is no objectively 'wrong way' to look at this. Everything I say from here on is subjective. I use more than just a modicum of leniency in enforcement because the fun of social interaction and an unfolding Star Wars themed narrative is tremendously appealing. The rules are there to facilitate that and ensure that everything runs smoothly. If a ship is off the table, then it's 'out' and is removed from play because that makes the game function when ships fly off the board, never to return. But It's not the goalposts or a primary method of scoring points either. So being just a little bit out (~1-2mm) is fine with me. Armada is primarily about ships shooting ships, crashing into asteroid, racing to collect little blips on the table, and laughing at the image conjured up of Han giving Dash Rendar the slow-mo thumbs up while tumbling through space due to a turn 6 kill waiting for Reeikan's effect to wear off. So I'm not going to sweat it with something that small, but neither do I have anything against people for wanting to follow the rules to the letter. If the game is fun for both players, then it's a success. If that means fudging the rules a bit, then so be it

But here's the bugbear: tournament points. It affects more than just the people playing and as such, calling the TO might be a good idea to ensure that the structure of the tournament isn't significantly affected. With tournament play, for matters like that, I'm more incline to follow the Rules as Written. Which is in itself ironic as the same effect as bumping a ship applies to the tournament itself: skew one result, and the rest may very well be off kilter for the duration of the event. But like bumping ships, sometimes it just happens, you may not even notice it. No one likes someone constantly bumping their ship, but no one likes being watched constantly for minor rules infractions like they were inmates. Especially not when it's said to be for the sake of the unlaughing unfeeling inhuman rules book. Combing for instances to punish an opponent is the behavior I hate seeing, it's playing the system rather than playing the game. Still, do try to keep those distortions to a minimum, for all our sakes eh?

"So it is written, so shall it be done. Sacrifices to the Golden God must be made, or the spirit of the game shall surely die."

I'd say it was still on the board.... Only because of model slippage and table bumps means I give a little leeway to all measurements

Model slippage and bumps can and do go both ways though. If you're going to take account of those then what might be 1mm off could just as easily have been 3mm off or 1mm on.

With that in mind, off is off. IMO it's the only really fair way.

Tape measures are no more accurate than the Maneuver tool. I have played well over a dozen games that use a tape measure and no matter the player, even are always questionable moves. Where they are right at that edge of their movement. What looks like 3" to some can be 3 1/8th. Seems like a little but it adds up and can easily put you in range or out of range fast. Let's not even get into turning and how that can be take advantage of.

The tool gives that star wars ship movement feel. The authentic ship movement of star wars. Sincerely center they use naval style movement it works. How could you make the CR90 different than the Raider and still get their style of movement? I know from experience with BFG, Firestorm Armada, Halo Fleet Battles, and play testing Dropfleet Commander, that it is extremely hard to get movement and turns into those games.

The tool also allows for more distinction between ships. It allows for different base sizes (using a tape measure would require the same point of measuring and so a large base would be VASTLY different than a Small base) which is nice.

To claim the measure has lots of play and therefor over 3 turns has moved a few mm to the left to cause a tiny amount to go over and should therefor be forgiven is silly, as the ship should have ended up hanging over by a great deal but the play in the measure brought it back away from the edge. We have to accept that there are a few mm issues of play in the measure and that ships might get moved a small amount when bumping. But once a ship has finished its move that's it finial location and if it's off its off just as we use that finial location to measure arcs and range.. We don't say well your just a mm out for range I'll let you attack me as I might have moved it 2mm to the left three turns ago.. The rules are the rules if you want a balanced game use them, if you play in a tournament use them.. If you really don't care who wins and are playing with a friend making pew pew noises and the game has no effect on anyone else's do what ever you want.

It's not always about you Dras .

Seriously though, the above wasn't even a hypothetical: multiple counts, multiple people. Rules and laws are selectively followed every day and enforced with varying degrees of leniency.

It is always about me after all!

I'm afraid rules compliance is never black and white ( as the heated debate on this thread shows). If I remember my QI methodology (and I do) there are three zones of rules compliance.

1) The rule

2) the rule the majority follow ( socially accepted norm)

3) The rule the risk takers follow ( the unacceptable level of rule breaking)

So as an example, we have a 70mph speed limit on a road ( the rule) this will lead to a small ( and slightly irritating ) minority who will obey the rules and feel any infraction should be punished. the majority will break the rule to a degree ( say speeding to 85mph) the majority of people will consider this normal behavor and will think it bad luck ( in fact unjust and not right ) to get a ticket. A further minority will push way beyond the expected behavor ( say driving at a 100mph) this will be seen as breaking the rules and completely inappropriate by the vast rule breaking majorly ( as they jog along the middle lane at 80).

We all live in one of those zones moving in and out in different aspects of our lives..... It's one of those things people who design systems (like games or laws) for people to follow need to be aware of.....

I think the problem with your argument, Jon, is that there is clearly no "rule the majority follow," as evidenced by this thread.

In a tournament, you should be adhering to the rules. Period. Asking your opponent to accept your interpretation of the rules is unsporting in a tournament setting. Tournaments are not there for learning the game. People can and do learn in a tourney setting (I did). But you should never ask your opponent to forgive your inexperience or inexactitude at a tournament. If you fly off, your ship is gone, no matter how little. If a player sets the maneuver tool and then slots it into the base, then realizes that they're off, the ship is gone. That is the standard I hold myself to, and that is the standard I hold my opponents to. I would not ask my opponent to allow me to keep my ship on, and I will say no if they ask the same of me.

Outside of tournaments, keep it on. Blow crap up. That's what this game is for.

I think the problem with your argument, Jon, is that there is clearly no "rule the majority follow," as evidenced by this thread.

In a tournament, you should be adhering to the rules. Period. Asking your opponent to accept your interpretation of the rules is unsporting in a tournament setting. Tournaments are not there for learning the game. People can and do learn in a tourney setting (I did). But you should never ask your opponent to forgive your inexperience or inexactitude at a tournament. If you fly off, your ship is gone, no matter how little. If a player sets the maneuver tool and then slots it into the base, then realizes that they're off, the ship is gone. That is the standard I hold myself to, and that is the standard I hold my opponents to. I would not ask my opponent to allow me to keep my ship on, and I will say no if they ask the same of me.

Outside of tournaments, keep it on. Blow crap up. That's what this game is for.

To be honest you can see that rule here. the majority agree asking to keep a ship on the board is beyond acceptable in a comp where the risk ( loss of prizes, status) is greater, but as the perception of risk decreases ( it's a friendly game or practice) you start to see more " socially" accepted rule breaking, with some holding the the absolute requirement of the rules in all situations.