Re-Edit

An interesting Dilemma Arose this evening.

Just finished a game where I had

Whisper and Echo with the Advanced Cloaking Device.

As it says on the card "After you perform an Attack.

You may perform a free cloak action"

Now whisper is Pilot Skill 7

Another ship at Pilot Skill 7 then fired at me.

But due to the simultaneous rule when shooting an openant.

My free cloak action doesn't count until after the ship shooting with the same pilot skill has finished its firing round.

Basicly

I only get two evades on the phantom instead of the four you get when cloaked.

According to my opponent

Does the card take president,

Soon as I have performed an attack I get a free cloak action.....like it says.

Or does the simultaneous attack rule take presidant.

And ships on the same initiative attack before the Advanced cloaking device takes effect.

We played with the latter.

But to me.

That doesn't make the card very effective.

Pretty useless actually against the other four ships with pilot skill 7 !

Does the Card, overwrite this rule ?

Can you guys shed some light on this

Thank you.

Barry.

you complete everything that happens from one ship's attack before you move to the next ship. Even though the fire is "simultaneous" in name, it is not actually simultaneous.

Whisper1 shoots at Whisper2

Whisper1 receives a focus token (if applicable)

Whisper1 may cloak.

Whisper2 now gets to fire at cloaked Whisper1

Initiative is huge in this matchup. Whisper2 needs to take advantage of moving later to dodge Whisper1's arc.

you complete everything that happens from one ship's attack before you move to the next ship. Even though the fire is "simultaneous" in name, it is not actually simultaneous.

Whisper1 shoots at Whisper2

Whisper1 receives a focus token (if applicable)

Whisper1 may cloak.

Whisper2 now gets to fire at cloaked Whisper1

Initiative is huge in this matchup. Whisper2 needs to take advantage of moving later to dodge Whisper1's arc.

Hmmm that's not really the question I'm asking.

OK.

Whisper Vs Kavil

Both initiative 7

I shoot first, then Cloak with Advanced cloaking device

But,

Does he get to shoot back before the Advanced cloaking device takes effect.

The rules say yes.....but the card says no

You cloak after attacking.

Meaning do I get its effect as soon as I have attacked.

Thanks.

you complete everything that happens from one ship's attack before you move to the next ship. Even though the fire is "simultaneous" in name, it is not actually simultaneous.

Whisper1 shoots at Whisper2

Whisper1 receives a focus token (if applicable)

Whisper1 may cloak.

Whisper2 now gets to fire at cloaked Whisper1

Initiative is huge in this matchup. Whisper2 needs to take advantage of moving later to dodge Whisper1's arc.

Hmmm that's not really the question I'm asking.

OK.

Whisper Vs Kavil

Both initiative 7

I shoot first, then Cloak with Advanced cloaking device

But,

Does he get to shoot back before the Advanced cloaking device takes effect.

The rules say yes.....but the card says no

You cloak after attacking.

Meaning do I get its effect as soon as I have attacked.

Thanks.

That is the question you're asking, and skoto answered it. Only the names were changed to protect the innocent.

1) The rules are generally written when the game first comes out. They know that sometimes a card will come out which presents a unique situation contrary to the way the rules usually play out. In which case, the card takes precedence.

2) The Simultaneous Attack Rule is specifically for allowing a ship to attack before it is destroyed. So if you both act at once, and you kill them, they still technically get to take their shot before dying. The rule doesn't cover this kind of situation, allowing them to fire before you've completed your phase.

In this case...

You perform your complete phase before the opponent performs theirs. During your phase you attack, and then you cloak.

Even though the opponent acts "at the same time", the sequence of their events follows yours. Which means it follows after you've already cloaked.

The player whose squad has the lowest total squad point cost chooses which player has initiative.

During the Combat phase, if both players have ships with the same pilot skill, all of those ships belonging to the player with initiative resolve the phase first.

Yes sorry skoto.....read it a few times.

Silly me.

So yes.

Thank you both.

I thought it was odd.

And knew it wasn't right.

You have both put sense to what I thought was the case.

Thank you very much for your help.

Very much appreciated !

All the best.

Barry.

OK.

Whisper Vs Kavil

Both initiative 7

I shoot first, then Cloak with Advanced cloaking device

But,

Does he get to shoot back before the Advanced cloaking device takes effect.

The rules say yes.....but the card says no

You cloak after attacking.

Meaning do I get its effect as soon as I have attacked.

Thanks.

Your first problem is that both pilot are PS 7. While that may help in determining order it does NOT determine "initiative" which is set at the start of the game and does not change.

When things would happen at the same time, such as two ships shooting because they have the same PS, the player with Initiative does ALL of his stuff first before the other player does anything. If you have initiative with Whisper this means you get to shoot, activate the ACD, and possibly pick up the Focus token before Kavil does anything. Once you are all done with your PS 7 stuff then Kavil will get to do his stuff. EVERYTHING you do at PS 7 happens before your opponent does his PS 7 stuff; it's kind of like you have PS 7.5 when you have Initiative except for the simultaneous fire situation which may not even apply here.

In a simultaneous fire situation where a ship shooting as PS X destroys a target ship that is also PS X that target gets to remain on the board until later and it has had a chance to make its attacks after which it is immediately removed.

Also note that any critical damage done also affects the ship if it is meant to fire at the same pilot step. ie the ship has 3 remaining hull and takes 3 damage and 1 crit. You still need to pull the crit card, and if it would reduce the number of attack dice, or somehow reduce your ability to attack, it will effect that turns attack rolls.

So this is what I use as premise to the cloak at the same pilot step when I have initiative.

Here's the easiest way to think about it: the simultaneous attack rule has one and only one effect. It says you don't remove a ship on the same PS from the table until it's had a chance to attack.

Anything else that happens to that ship as the result of the attack happens right away. Literally anything.

Now whisper is initiative 7

Another ship at initiative 7 then fired at me.

But due to the same initiative rule when shooting an openant.

My free cloak action doesn't count until after the ship shooting with incitive 7 has finished its firing round.

Basically I only get two evades on the phantom instead of the four you get when cloaked.

According to my opponent

Does the card take president,

Soon as I have performed an attack I get a free cloak action.....like it says.

<<SNIP>>

Barry.

Ok, Barry, your terminology is a bit screwed up and I'm wondering if that's caused some of your confusion.

Anyway, Whisper and Kavil both have a Pilot Skill (PS) of 7, not initiative 7. One player has the initiative for the entire game, and when two things happen at the same time, he will do all his stuff first.

Now you were the Imperial player and had initiative in this scenario. So as you progress through the Combat phase, starting with anyone on PS9 and heading down, you get to pilots on PS7. You and your opponent both have a pilot on PS7 (Whisper and Kavil), so because you have the initiative, your pilot goes first.

Whisper completes her attack, and immediately triggers Advanced Cloaking Device and cloaks. Her ability also triggers and you assign a focus token to the ship.

Next Kavil attacks the now cloaked Whisper and you get 4 defense (not evade) dice and have that focus token if you need it.

And that's it. Simple.

Now the Simultaneous Attack Rule would only kick in if Whisper managed to destroy Kavil during her attack. It does not apply to Whisper at all in this case, as you had the initiative and attacked first. It only applies to a ship that has been destroyed by a ship with equal Pilot Skill, and it hasn't had it's opportunity to attack yet. So it only applies to Kavil IF Kavil was destroyed. If Kavil wasn't destroyed, the Simultaneous Attack Rule doesn't come into play at all.

Initiative and Pilot Skill are two entirely separate things:

Initiative: If both players have effects that resolve at the same time, the player with initiative resolves all of his effects first.

Pilot Skill: Pilot skill determines the order in which ships move during the Activation phase and attack during the Combat phase, as well as the order in which ships are placed during setup.

Just remember that ships don't have initiative, players do.

In short: if Whisper's player has initiative, she gets to shoot first, and recloak (and get her focus token if she hit) before Kavil shoots.

Hello Parravon.

Yes your right.

I meant to say "Pilot Skill" not initiative.

So that looks confusing.

The Problem I had was I knew this was right.

And that against Kavil,

I get to fully Recloak finishing its phase before the opponent can then attack.

The problem I had was my opponent thought he was right.

And I shouldn't be able to Cloak until he finished his attack.

Just wanted to make sure I was right.

Difficult to Argue against some one who is adamant they are right......but Infact wrong.

I now know for future reference with out a doubt.

The ability of the Advanced Cloak and each ship completely

Finishes its phase.

Thank you all.

Barry.

What was his argument? Or was he just staking a claim with no backup?

If the ship you shoot at doesn't die then the "simultaneous attack" rule does not trigger and has 0 affect on the game.

Completely resolve 1 attack before moving on to the others.

In your comment: The rules say yes.....but the card says no

The rules actually say NO ... AND the card says no, seems pretty cut and dry.

What was his argument? Or was he just staking a claim with no backup?

It makes sense cinematically. But not game mechanically.

So he didn't quote a rule to support his view.

And even if ships have the same PS , initiative means one is faster on the trigger than the other. So even cinematically it does not make sense.

Had you had more ships at same PS the would all have activated before Kavil.

One thing I will say is.

I was playing against an opponent who thought his "interpretation" of the rules were right.

It is sometimes difficult to Argue against someone who is Adamant they are right........

even though as proven by everyone, they are in fact wrong.

and this is why I asked the Forum community, to clarify the issue and note the mistake.

so when we play again.

it will be done right.

every game is a learning experience at the moment.

and hopefully will remain enjoyable as we continue to learn and play.

thank you all.

Barry.

....

I was playing against an opponent who thought his "interpretation" of the rules were right.

It is sometimes difficult to Argue against someone who is Adamant they are right........

even though as proven by everyone, they are in fact wrong.

....

These are some of the hardest people to play with. When you've been around long enough you'll run into people whose interpretation are just wrong, and not even the grey area wrong like Boba crew vs. Extra Munitions but rerolling dice after spending the TL token to fire a Concussion Missile wrong, who are just about impossible to convince otherwise. You can show them all the related rules, point out balance issues, and any number of other things but unless you can point out something that is EXACTLY what they want, or need, to hear or need they just continue to ignore it.

I'll admit that most of my experience with that comes from RPGs which actually have some flexibility in the rules but it can happen just about anywhere.

FYI you will run into the same situation with Turr Phennir... Especially if he has initiative, he can Shoot then barrel roll out of arc.

What it always comes down to is initiative. If you have an opponent who is adamant that they are right, pull out the rules to show him why initiative says he is not.