Wait. You quoted the rules, but then added terms that weren't there.

The section you mentioned doesn't say anything about speed dials. Just speed.

There's also nothing in that section (or engine techs) that prohibit spending a nav command. If there was an ability that let you execute the same command twice, you WOULD be able to use it during an ET move. (Which is why that ability seems unlikely to be added...)

For your last point, generally those situations play out formally like: "I have completed my attack step. Would you like to make any actions before I start the determine course step? No, ok, now I have set everything, spent my nav command, and am about to complete the determine course step, would you like to make any actions? Yes, you want to resolve g-8? Ok..."

To be honest, I would like to see clarification on if "before resolving the determine course step" means anytime during or before starting as you can make a case either way.

What speed your dial shows is what speed your ship is going unless a card specifies otherwise. Remember, card trumps rules.

Yes if there was a card that let you sped 2 commands separately you could do that. Since there is none and I don't think they will create one (far too much headache with that one I think) you cannot use a navigate command during an Engine Techs. It is just not possible with the cards out right now and the rules.

Let's break this down.

The Determine Course step is the first step when you what? Execute a Maneuver . What does Engine Techs tell us to do?

After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver .

It is not a "continuation" of a maneuver, it is a separate maneuver, completely independent of what you did previously. Everything in the rules forces you to treat an Engine Techs maneuver as its own, separate thing. When you are using ET, this is what your activation looks like:

• Adjust maneuver tool
• Slot tool into ship's base, pick up ship, insert ship's base into maneuver tool
• Adjust maneuver tool
• Slot tool into ship's base, pick up ship, insert ship's base into maneuver tool

What do you do before you move your ship as part of ET? Adjust the maneuver tool . And what does the rulebook call that? Determining Course . When does G-8 trigger? Before the Determine Course step is resolved .

That is what the rules say. That is not an interpretation. These are the facts.

As far as Engine Techs being a "continuation" of a maneuver, that is incorrect. It is a separate maneuver, as defined by the Engine Techs card itself. You don't adjust the maneuver tool for the speed you are travelling, then adjust the next joint for your ET maneuver and move the ship one time. You adjust the tool, move the ship, adjust the tool, move the ship. It is two separate actions. Otherwise you could use your regular maneuver and overlap a ship or obstacle, then use your ET maneuver without suffering the effects of overlap/ramming.

And Eastern, you are quoting when you use the Navigate command. That has nothing to do with when you determine course . The Nav command must be used during the Determine Course step. It does not dictate when/how the Determine Course step happens. If it is not used during the first Determine Course step, Engine Techs does not trigger, so there is no second determine course step. If you use your Nav command during the first one to trigger ET, you cannot use a Nav command during the ET determine course step because you have already resolved a Nav command this turn .

Lyr - You can spend a Nav command right up until the moment you slide the maneuver tool into the base. So you could adjust the tool, place it on the table near your ship, then decide you need the extra yaw or increase/decrease speed, then readjust the tool. G-8s can be used right up until the moment you slide the maneuver tool into the base. So I could determine my course and be about to move my ship, then you declare you're using G-8 to slow me down. I haven't slotted the tool into the base, so I can declare I'm adjusting my speed.

But you're right, and that's what I was going for. Like tractor beams, you force them to use a Nav command when they don't want to. Unlike tractor beams, you kind of force them to use a Nav command in the next turn, too, because now they have to slow back down.

So you are claiming now that Navigate is somehow the only order that does not have its own specific period for use?

Repair has to happen when the dial is revealed, or it is banked.

Squadrons has to happen when the dial is revealed, or it is banked

Concentrate fire has to happen when you attack, or it is banked

Navigation has to happen when you determine course or it is banked

There are 4 very specific points you can resolve your command dial, to claim that some how your determine course step is not a specific point in ship activation where you can only resolve the dial or token..I don't even.

that is not making things up, you have a window for all orders, ET is not a determine course step action, it is a specific event triggered by the use of Navigation being resolved in its correct place in a ships specifically stated activation sequence, and it occurs only when you have completed your determine course step.

Yes it uses the maneuver tool, yes it follows some of the rules, but it also ignores other rules in that same section.

It is pretty simple, Can you YES or NO use ET prior to completing your determine course step? No you cannot, GR-8 says specifically before the determine course step is resolved, and ET has to be resolved AFTER it has completed its determine course step.

But by all means keep accusing me of making things up.

Yes it uses the maneuver tool, yes it follows some of the rules, but it also ignores other rules in that same section.

How does this not make it a maneuver with its own determine course step, you know, using the maneuver tool to determine a course?

The fact that you can only resolve a nav order during a determine course step does not mean there has to be only one determine course step in a turn.

Following your logic, your only window of opportunity to use a concentrate fire order is during the first salvo of an attack. Or against the first squadron targeted by AS fire.

It's like saying you can't attack twice or fire against all squadrons in arc because you have to use CF during the Modify dice step of the first attack so there shouldn't be more than one in a turn.

This a bad case of wanting something to be the case, and then ranting to that effect.

Yeah, reegsk outlined it all better than we ever could, and here I am resorting to poor analogies to try to show the flaw in the logic.

The way I see it is that you can execute a manoeuvre with the manoeuvre tool notched into the left side of the ships base and then you can execute a speed 1 manoeuvre with the manoeuvre tool notched into the right side of the ships base. This can lead to some interesting manoeuvring.

If ET are continuation of the one manoeuvre you wouldn't be able to do this??????

EK, at no time did I say that Navigate commands didn't have their own time to be used. What I said was:

And Eastern, you are quoting when you use the Navigate command. That has nothing to do with when you determine course . The Nav command must be used during the Determine Course step. It does not dictate when/how the Determine Course step happens.

Read all four sentences. The second sentence, taken out of context, does support your latest comment. But when coupled with the third and fourth sentences, it doesn't. The Navigate command does not dictate when you determine course. The Navigate command can only be used when you determine course, yes, but a determine course step happens whether you use a Nav command or not. Hell, it happens whether you move your ship at all.

And let me restate - I don't necessarily disagree with the argument that G-8 cannot effect an Engine Techs movement. The way the rules are worded, it's impossible to say what FFG intended and you can make a sound argument either way. But I disagree with the argument you have presented. According to your argument, an ET maneuver is not a separate maneuver, but something that continues the original one. They are two separate things. The Engine Techs card itself refers to them as separate maneuvers. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to double-ram with ET, because you only check for overlap when you are attempting to end a ship move. So if your first movement doesn't end with ET, then you only ram once, not twice.

I am saying that DTC is a phase of activation

I am saying that ET is not a repeat of that phase, it just extends the DTC phase temporarily. I am saying it does so because the DTC phase is where you can legally change ship speed, where you have to adhere to your speed dial, where you must spend a Nav dial or token to trigger the ET maneuver. and Yet you can do none of them things during the ET maneuver, they are not the same thing.

I fail to see how me saying that ET is not a legal DTC state is some how making things up, or refusing to accept it is a repeat of the DTC step of ship activation makes me ranting.

Every single ship in the game follows the same activation sequence, where its maneuvering is dictated by its speed dial. Clearly what the GR-8 card is worded for.

Reduce speed by one is a term that is only applicable to the speed dial.

I am saying that DTC is a phase of activation

I am saying that ET is not a repeat of that phase, it just extends the DTC phase temporarily. I am saying it does so because the DTC phase is where you can legally change ship speed, where you have to adhere to your speed dial, where you must spend a Nav dial or token to trigger the ET maneuver. and Yet you can do none of them things during the ET maneuver, they are not the same thing.

I fail to see how me saying that ET is not a legal DTC state is some how making things up, or refusing to accept it is a repeat of the DTC step of ship activation makes me ranting.

Every single ship in the game follows the same activation sequence, where its maneuvering is dictated by its speed dial. Clearly what the GR-8 card is worded for.

Reduce speed by one is a term that is only applicable to the speed dial.

Eastern King - As per the rulebook:

Page 11 of the RRG:

Ship Movement

To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment and place the ship by sliding its notches over the guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

ERGO - Determine the course is BEFORE moving the ship. Engine Techs is AFTER moving the ship.

Everything else you say is based on this fallacy. Accept it.

I am saying that DTC is a phase of activation

I am saying that ET is not a repeat of that phase, it just extends the DTC phase temporarily. I am saying it does so because the DTC phase is where you can legally change ship speed, where you have to adhere to your speed dial, where you must spend a Nav dial or token to trigger the ET maneuver. and Yet you can do none of them things during the ET maneuver, they are not the same thing.

I fail to see how me saying that ET is not a legal DTC state is some how making things up, or refusing to accept it is a repeat of the DTC step of ship activation makes me ranting.

Every single ship in the game follows the same activation sequence, where its maneuvering is dictated by its speed dial. Clearly what the GR-8 card is worded for.

Reduce speed by one is a term that is only applicable to the speed dial.

Eastern King - As per the rulebook:

Page 11 of the RRG:

Ship Movement

To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment and place the ship by sliding its notches over the guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

ERGO - Determine the course is BEFORE moving the ship. Engine Techs is AFTER moving the ship.

Everything else you say is based on this fallacy. Accept it.

That, with the email I received from FFG, and us repeating ourselves till we are hoarse, I think we exhausted this one.

I am just going repeat one thing though.

You can't use the maneuver tool expect during a Determine Course step.

There are three phases:

Reveal dial

Attack

Move

That's it. SHIP MOVEMENT is a completely different section. Like ATTACK. Those two subsets each have subphases where you do different things and execute commands. Determine course step is NOT associated directly with any actual part of the turn any more than Declare Target is.

By your logic, Demolisher CAN'T spend concentrate fire dials or tokens during it's attack after moving. Thats just silly

I guess we will see then, when FFG make a ruling.

As it stands, it looks like I think it cannot be affected, the rest of you do. Someone is going to be wrong.

To be honest - a bunch of people agree with your -conclusion-, that it won't be affected...

What they are disagreeing with, is your method of coming to that result.

There are three phases:

Reveal dial

Attack

Move

That's it. SHIP MOVEMENT is a completely different section. Like ATTACK. Those two subsets each have subphases where you do different things and execute commands. Determine course step is NOT associated directly with any actual part of the turn any more than Declare Target is.

By your logic, Demolisher CAN'T spend concentrate fire dials or tokens during it's attack after moving. Thats just silly

Demolisher allows a suspension of a attack action, You can only spend Concentrate fire on your first (pre demolisher move) or after you move. ET you can never EVER spend a Nav Dial or Token during an ET maneuver because it is not a legal place to do so, because you have to spend your Nav dial or token to generate the ET maneuver.

To be honest - a bunch of people agree with your -conclusion-, that it won't be affected...

What they are disagreeing with, is your method of coming to that result.

Are you of all people claiming that when something says "reduce speed" it is not in fact referring to your speed dial?

I'd love to see in the rules some where when it says speed, that it is not referring to a speed dial. ( RE ships, not squadrons.)

I'd also love to see where it says determine course step is not a specific point in ship activation where you may spend nav dial / token, can increase or decrease speed, and move only by what your speed dial is set to.

And once that step is completed you may ET. If you cannot change speed, nor spend or resolve nav dials/tokens during an ET maneuver. How can it legally be a target for a trigger worded for a specific phase of ship activation where you can, and only can resolve them effects?

All I keep getting quoted is you use the maneuver tool, so it is a real determine course step, or Lyr quoting something taken totally out of context.

Yes Lyr you were told you cannot use the maneuver tool on any ship other than the one that is in its determine course step, this is to prevent you pre measuring where other ships can reach, before you decide where to move. It also, for me highlights exactly the point I am arguing, GR-8's are designed to be used on a ship when its allowed to spend Nav dial/tokens, and its speed affects how it moves, IE a specific point that ALL ships have to execute every time they are activated.

I will, like others have said, wait to see what FFG states on this.

... Mate, you're putting words and inference in my mouth...

I, for one, said nothing of the sort.

What did I say?

I said that people were agreeing with your Conclusion.

But disagreeing with your Method.

So if you want to take issue with what I've said. Take issue with what I've said. Not what I have not said, or claimed, or not claimed, or anything of the sort. .

My method?

I think I have covered each potential way it could not be affected, so disagreeing with my method of reaching my conclusion? means another way it cannot affect the ET maneuver that I have not understood?

Or people just do not like the way I type, method of expressing myself?

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no? the thing that dictates a ships maneuvering, someone keeps accusing me of making things up, but you won't even agree that, this is in fact the case.

Leading me to believe that there is some sort of popularity contest going on, and I am losing it.

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no?

Try reading this thread/the overlap section of the RRG. Basically you're saying speed isn't speed, a maneuver isn't a maneuver, and a step isn't a step. Do you see a pattern there?

You can lead an Eastern King to the rulebook, but you can't make him read it. . .

Seriously, I'm out on this one.

My method?

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no? the thing that dictates a ships maneuvering, someone keeps accusing me of making things up, but you won't even agree that, this is in fact the case.

It isnt a direct reference to the dial. The word dial doesnt appear in that section at all. "A ship consists or a ship base, ship model, ship model, and ship card" - RRG page 10. No mention of speed dial. You are attributing some over the top sense of value to a tracking device. All the RRG says is that current speed is tracked on the dial. Thats the pnly reference in the whole rulebook to the dial - half a compound sentence.

That section goes on to say that speed is constant until a nav command or upgrade card changes the speed. Technically, Engine Techs changes the speed (by setting it to one) for the maneuver.

My method?

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no? the thing that dictates a ships maneuvering, someone keeps accusing me of making things up, but you won't even agree that, this is in fact the case.

It isnt a direct reference to the dial. The word dial doesnt appear in that section at all. "A ship consists or a ship base, ship model, ship model, and ship card" - RRG page 10. No mention of speed dial. You are attributing some over the top sense of value to a tracking device. All the RRG says is that current speed is tracked on the dial. Thats the pnly reference in the whole rulebook to the dial - half a compound sentence.

That section goes on to say that speed is constant until a nav command or upgrade card changes the speed. Technically, Engine Techs changes the speed (by setting it to one) for the maneuver.

Actually, Engine Techs does not change the speed at all. If it did it would be subject to the Thrust Control Malfunction crit at all times.

Engine Techs is just a bonus maneuver outside of your normal maneuver.

Eastern, it is a Temporary reduction to your speed.

When you Ram a ship, do you change your speed dial for the temporary reduction in speed? No, you don't. Same thing here.

Leading me to believe that there is some sort of popularity contest going on, and I am losing it.

This is silly. I'm done with this line of "discussion."

RTFM or GTFO.

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no? the thing that dictates a ships maneuvering, someone keeps accusing me of making things up, but you won't even agree that, this is in fact the case.

Leading me to believe that there is some sort of popularity contest going on, and I am losing it.

Here let me answer your question a third time. 8 will be very clear.

Ramming. Under the Overlapping rules.

This is no popularity contest. At this point I think you are just trolling to troll.

And I asked a question, when in the rules talking about ships, when it says reduce speed, that is a direct reference to a speed dial no? the thing that dictates a ships maneuvering, someone keeps accusing me of making things up, but you won't even agree that, this is in fact the case.

Leading me to believe that there is some sort of popularity contest going on, and I am losing it.

Here let me answer your question a third time. 8 will be very clear.

Ramming. Under the Overlapping rules.

This is no popularity contest. At this point I think you are just trolling to troll.

I'm not following you here, at all.

My entire point is reduce speed is your dial, when you ram, you look at your dial, you do not make some number up.

ET has nothing to do with your speed dial.

And I'm trolling to troll? Trolling is posting off topic stuff in a thread to derail it, or insulting people, or calling people names to get a rise out of them.

I have posted nothing that is not on topic, I have insulted no one, and I have not called anyone names, or been nasty or abusive, I have been accused of ranting, been addressed dismissively, and had pointless off topic replies posted, been out right ignored on things that are correct, accused of making things up, and yet you accuse ME of trolling?