And now I understand why FFG said that the negatives on crits do not affect it either.

What FFG said is that Speed-1 isn't the "current speed" that's alluded to on the crit card. But if "current speed" is 1, then the ET Speed-1 maneuver is affected.

• Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “NAV:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

Hang on a Minute.....

So, above. I have a Nav Command. I resolve the command at the appropriate time, which is - during the determine course step of my movement... My Nav Command lets me Change the Yaw/Speed during my Current Maneuver .

It also lets me Activate Engine Techs... However, Engine Techs does not RESOLVE at that time. It has its own Resolution time... Which is After you execute a maneuver

Effects state 'resolving'. Rather than 'resolved'....

After reading this in the ET thread, I am about to do a 180 on Gr-8 affecting the ET maneuver. And now I understand why FFG said that the negatives on crits do not affect it either.

I had looked at the ET maneuver as a separate navigation from normal navigation, and thus fully acceptable as a target for the GR-8, except it is not really, it is something that specifically happens after you determine course, and only if you spend a Nav dial or token.

The Determine course step is a specific point in time

Reveal Command Dial

Resolve Command if Squadrons : Repair

Fire ; Resolve Concentrate Fire

Use GR-8

Determine Course : Resolve Navigation Command Dial & or Token

Finish Determine Course step

Resolve Engine Tech

There is no determine course step for the ET maneuver, you just execute a speed 1 maneuver after you have resolved the Determine Course step.

If there is no Determine Course step during the Engine Tech maneuver, when do you decide what direction you're going?

Determine Course is a step within resolving a maneuver. Every maneuver you make includes a Determine Course step.

Determine course step is when you can spend a nav dial, or a nav token, can you spend a nav dial or nav token when you ET?

The answer is no you cannot, which gives a very specific window when the GR-8 can trigger, and it is not during the ET maneuver, the ET maneuver is something that is triggered during the determine course step, by spending either a nav dial, or token to generate a nav effect, which then triggers the ET, and you execute a speed one maneuver regardless of the ships current speed, again making the argument for Gr-8 working moot.

Re-read the LtP book under "Execute a Maneuver." The Determine Course step is when you physically manipulate the maneuver tool and place it on the table. This is also when you resolve a Navigate command, yes, but the step is defined as when you adjust the maneuver tool and slide it into the ship's base. Do you do this when you use Engine Techs? Yes. Whenever you execute a maneuver, you must go through the Determine Course step. The wording on G-8 is that it triggers during the Determine Course step, so it can trigger during your original maneuver or the ET maneuver, because both contain the trigger for G-8.

The question is whether or not executing a speed one maneuver is the same as executing a maneuver at speed one. If they are the same, G-8 can reduce the speed temporarily by one and stop your ET move. If they are different, it can't. But you cannot move a ship without first determining the course.

You do not have the opportunity to resolve a Nav command when you are using ET because you already had to resolve the command to trigger ET . And you cannot resolve the same command more than once in an activation.

Determine course step is when you can spend a nav dial, or a nav token, can you spend a nav dial or nav token when you ET?

The answer is no you cannot

I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread to repeat myself over and over. Dras might have had the right approach after all.

Every maneuver includes a Determine Course step

Every Determine Course step gives you the opportunity to spend a navigate command.

You can only execute a navigate command once per turn.

You can only activate Engine Techs if you've already executed a navigate command.

Therefore, every Engine Tech maneuver gives you the opportunity to execute a navigate command, but you are never allowed to take advantage of it because you must necessarily have already spent your single navigate command for the turn prior to being granted that opportunity.

This does not mean that there is no Determine Course step during an Engine Tech maneuver.

When can you spend a Nav Dial or a Nav Token? it is pretty straight forwards.

Yes you cannot resolve the Dial or token, my point, they have already been spent to generate the effect. your window for GR 8 has gone.

So removing ET from the equation, when does any other ship resolves its determine course step? after firing? which gives a window for the Gr-8.

And most importantly the ET maneuver is not affected at all by the ships speed, you can ET if you reduce your speed to zero when you spend your dial/token.

You are not the only one sick of repeating himself.

Eastern. . .I'm genuinely confused by your argument. The Movement Phase has two parts:

1) Adjust the maneuver tool (Determine Course step)

2) Place the maneuver tool in the ship's base, pick up the ship, insert the ship base into the appropriate slot on the maneuver tool (Move Ship)

Engine Techs allow you to repeat both parts, with the only caveat that the maneuver is only at Speed One, and uses the Yaw values your ship has at Speed One regardless of its current speed. So an Execute Maneuver step with Engine Techs looks like this:

1) Determine Course, Spend Navigation Dial/Token

2) Move Ship

3) Determine Course

4) Move Ship

G-8 has absolutely nothing to do with firing, the wording is "Before an enemy ship. . .resolves the Determine Course step. . ." Your window is as soon as your opponent picks up the maneuver tool to adjust it, and ends when they insert it into the ship's base. With Engine Techs, you do this twice in your ship's activation, meaning that G-8 has two opportunities to trigger. Think of it like something with the trigger "When a ship makes an attack." If your ship fires twice, there are two potential triggers. You don't have to use an effect on either shot, but you can.

The real argument about G-8s and Engine Techs revolves around whether you are executing a Speed One maneuver, or executing a maneuver at Speed One. If it's the former, then G-8 can effect it because it's just the same as if your ship's dial were set to Speed One. If it's the latter, then it's something different and the speed can't be altered. I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion, it's difficult to say how FFG intended it, but I feel like your argument is incorrect.

Determine course is a specific step for a ship that happens immediately after you have finished attacking, you can only move the distance set on your speed dial, and you can only get clicks equal to the ones shown for your current speed on your ship card.

At this point in your ship activation you can spend a Nav Command or/and a Nav token, to increase, decrease, gain additional clicks on the maneuver tool.

Once that is done, you pick your ship up and move it.

Engine Techs are a continuation of your ships maneuver, it is a triggered effect from an upgrade card, it is NOT a repeat of your determine course step of your ship specific activation order.

It is not a repeat of that because A it has already happened, B your ship speed dial is totally ignored, C you cannot spend orders here, again because that step has PASSED already.

GR-8 says " Before an enemy ship at distance 1-5 resolves the determine course step, you may exhaust this card to temporarily reduce its speed by 1 to a minimum of zero, until the end of the maneuver " DTC happens immediately after you stop shooting, it is a period you can resolve commands and it strictly adheres to your speed dial, which is what the GR-8 temporarily reduces by one. it says THE determine course step, the part of ship activation that occurs after you stop shooting.

ET is not affected by your speed dial, I dunno how clearer to state it, even at speed ZERO you can ET 1 distance along the maneuver tool.

I am not so sure Eastern.

The Execute Maneuver step is after you finish your attacks. In the RRG, page 11 it breaks down Ship Movement. In order to execute a maneuver (which Engine Techs is) you have to use a Determine Course sub step.

Lots of creativity in this thread. I think I'll be back when wave 4 has actually hit the table.

Eastern, you're injecting a lot of stuff into the rules that isn't actually there. The determine course step is defined, by the rules, as when you physically manipulate the maneuver tool. It happens in the Execute a Maneuver sub phase. ET tells you to "execute a speed one maneuver." You're repeating the Execute a Maneuver sub phase, with the caveat that it is at speed one. You CANNOT move a ship before setting the maneuver tool, and that is determining course as defined by the rules. You are making stuff up to support your argument that just isn't in the rules. Back up your statements with references to the rule book. I could, but I don't want to copy and paste the entire Execute a Maneuver sub phase.

Eastern, you're injecting a lot of stuff into the rules that isn't actually there. The determine course step is defined, by the rules, as when you physically manipulate the maneuver tool. It happens in the Execute a Maneuver sub phase. ET tells you to "execute a speed one maneuver." You're repeating the Execute a Maneuver sub phase, with the caveat that it is at speed one. You CANNOT move a ship before setting the maneuver tool, and that is determining course as defined by the rules. You are making stuff up to support your argument that just isn't in the rules. Back up your statements with references to the rule book. I could, but I don't want to copy and paste the entire Execute a Maneuver sub phase.

Clap, clap.

Edit - I can't read. Before and After are completely different words....

I do think FFG is going to have to clear up G-8. Not only whether or not it can slow that ET maneuver to speed one, but whether you can use a Nav command to negate its effects.

As we've established, G-8 triggers at any point between when your opponent starts adjusting their maneuver tool and when they slide the tool into the ship's base. You can also resolve a Nav command any time between when you start adjusting the maneuver tool and when you slide the tool into your ship's base. So you could activate G-8 before your opponent has chosen to resolve a Nav command. But since the speed is temporarily reduced by one, can you spend a Nav command to overcome that speed drop? I would say yes if you're not going max speed, no if you are. Examples:

1. You are going speed two in a CR90. I hit you with G-8s and temporarily drop your speed to one. You resolve a Nav command to increase your ship's dial to three, which means your temporary speed is two.
2. You are in a Gladiator going speed three. I hit you with G-8s to drop that to two. You cannot increase your dial to four, so your Nav command will not help you here.

So G-8s can still have a big impact on Demolisher. And the above example would make sense. In the first instance, you throw more power into engines and struggle to escape the gravity well. In the second, your engines are already at maximum output, so there's nothing you can do.

No, you would not overcome the speed drop. The temporary reduction does not finalize until you move the ship. Just like a ram.

Doesn't G8 state before the determine course step?

Eastern, you're injecting a lot of stuff into the rules that isn't actually there. The determine course step is defined, by the rules, as when you physically manipulate the maneuver tool. It happens in the Execute a Maneuver sub phase. ET tells you to "execute a speed one maneuver." You're repeating the Execute a Maneuver sub phase, with the caveat that it is at speed one. You CANNOT move a ship before setting the maneuver tool, and that is determining course as defined by the rules. You are making stuff up to support your argument that just isn't in the rules. Back up your statements with references to the rule book. I could, but I don't want to copy and paste the entire Execute a Maneuver sub phase.

I am not making anything up, do or do not ships have a specific activation order?

You have a repair moment

You have a squadron moment

You have a firing moment

You have a navigation moment

Repair and Squadron share the same slot, they are the first thing you resolve after revealing your ships command dial.

Then you shoot, and resolve Concentrate fire dial/token

Then you move and resolve Navigation dial/token

When you Navigate, does it or does it not state your ship moves according to it's speed dial? does it or does it not allow the resolution of Navigation dial/token?

I find it amazing you guys feel this is making something up, when you determine course it specifically states in the rules you must only move the speed set on your dial, and that you may or may not resolve a navigation dial/token, if neither of them things are in fact true, how can you possibly be repeating the section?

You don't think you aren't just twisting things for your own arguments?

No, you would not overcome the speed drop. The temporary reduction does not finalize until you move the ship. Just like a ram.

Doesn't G8 state before the determine course step?

Yes it does.

Here's probably why the wording is like it is...

Your want G-8 to effect ET. You don't want g8 to be rendered moot by the target having a banked nav token. (So any "while" wording is not an option). Basically, you want g8 to trigger after they've set their speed and determined their maneuver. Ok. "After a ship has set speed and confirmed their maneuver, but before they lock the maneuver tool into position, reduce their speed by one" is rather ackward don't you think?

Conveniently, all that wording is wrapped up in "After the determine course step".

And it also future proofs your rule that if for some crazy reason you add an ability to use the same command twice in a turn, you could still spend a nav command to impact ET. (Which seems unlikely as thats just nasty...)

The G-8s don't trigger "after", it's before the determine course step is resolved. So before your opponent finalizes their maneuver tool and puts it into the ship's base, meaning you could trigger G-8s, and have them respond by using their Nav command.

Of course, if they use the Nav command, now next turn they're going faster than they were before you hit them with G-8s, so that can throw their strategy off. If they wanted to keep their ship at speed two, you've now forced them to accelerate, and now they need another Nav command to slow back down (and if it's a Command Two or Three ship, that can be a problem).

No, you would not overcome the speed drop. The temporary reduction does not finalize until you move the ship. Just like a ram.

Doesn't G8 state before the determine course step?

Before the Determine Course step is resolved. So you could overcome it, but only by changing the speed on your dial:

- CR90 is going Speed Three

- G-8 is triggered to temporarily reduce speed to Two (Determine Course step is still not over)

- CR90 player responds by spending Nav command to increase ship dial to Speed Four

- Now G-8 reduces speed down to Three

So, in essence, you've overcome G-8s by increasing your speed, so with the temporary speed reduction you still move your original speed (three), but next turn you'll have to slow down to continue going speed three, because now your dial is set to four.

Actually, the Navigate command can only be used during the Determine Course step.

So you can't determine your course, move the ship then decide to increase/decrease your speed.

It is a defined step.

The turn order per activation is cut and dry on this one.

Reveal dial

After Reveal actions go here (tokens, etc)

Squadron Command / Engineering Command

Attack step

Movement Step

Determine Course step (Navigate Command goes here)

Move ship step

Repeat until all ships have moved.

No, you would not overcome the speed drop. The temporary reduction does not finalize until you move the ship. Just like a ram.

Doesn't G8 state before the determine course step?

Before the Determine Course step is resolved. So you could overcome it, but only by changing the speed on your dial:

- CR90 is going Speed Three

- G-8 is triggered to temporarily reduce speed to Two (Determine Course step is still not over)

- CR90 player responds by spending Nav command to increase ship dial to Speed Four

- Now G-8 reduces speed down to Three

So, in essence, you've overcome G-8s by increasing your speed, so with the temporary speed reduction you still move your original speed (three), but next turn you'll have to slow down to continue going speed three, because now your dial is set to four.

Yes, I agree with this. However, you are forcing an opponent to use a Nav Command when they might not want to, they are now going speed 4 when they might of wanted speed 2 the next turn but can only feasibly hit speed 3 now (barring token shenanigans that comms net provides).

So, it messes with them. Which I am in favor of.

I still think it will effect engine techs though. If you can have your speed temporarily reduced by a ram with Engine Techs, why can't this do the same

So this popped into my head and I feel silly for not thinking of it earlier.

With Engine Techs, you have to go through another Determine Course step. Want to know how I know this? Well, there once was a discussion where we were talking about when the Maneuver tool could be used. . . Well I had to go ask FFG (this caused me ridicule as always) and I still have the email!

I will bold the important part.

Hello, Lyraeus,

Page 12 Navigate :

When a ship is determining course for movement, it may spend its Nav command dial to increase or decrease its speed by one, this is the main way a ship may change its speed. Also it may adjust one joint by one click more than the speed chart normally allows.

This means an ET maneuver is not a real Determine course action, it is not affected by the ships speed dial, and it is not a valid time to spend either your dial or your token, it is a triggered effect that happens once you have completed the determine course step as laid out in the rules.

Also if you are going to argue that the GR-8 can be resolved at any point before the ship completes its DTC step, the Nav Dial/Token can also be spent at any point before it is resolved also, so we get a null point of who is triggering when? neither have to be done except before the DTC is complete, so we end up with are "are you using the Gr-8?"...."are you using your nav dial/token?" situation in which neither person has to say yes to the other, because both have the same timing?

Read Ship Movement.

Engine Techs is a real maneuver there are no other kinds in this game. The ONLY reason you can't use an Navigate command is because you already used one this turn to even activate Engine Techs.

It's like attacking, using the Concentrate Fire dial, then for your second attack, you want to use the token, but you can't since you already used the dial this turn.

As for the stalemate, he second player can just wait out the First player. They can wait to make their decision and if they do use it then the first player can use their navigate if they have not already. That is perfectly fine.

Let's break this down.

The Determine Course step is the first step when you what? Execute a Maneuver . What does Engine Techs tell us to do?

After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a speed-1 maneuver .

It is not a "continuation" of a maneuver, it is a separate maneuver, completely independent of what you did previously. Everything in the rules forces you to treat an Engine Techs maneuver as its own, separate thing. When you are using ET, this is what your activation looks like:

• Adjust maneuver tool
• Slot tool into ship's base, pick up ship, insert ship's base into maneuver tool
• Adjust maneuver tool
• Slot tool into ship's base, pick up ship, insert ship's base into maneuver tool

What do you do before you move your ship as part of ET? Adjust the maneuver tool . And what does the rulebook call that? Determining Course . When does G-8 trigger? Before the Determine Course step is resolved .

That is what the rules say. That is not an interpretation. These are the facts.

As far as Engine Techs being a "continuation" of a maneuver, that is incorrect. It is a separate maneuver, as defined by the Engine Techs card itself. You don't adjust the maneuver tool for the speed you are travelling, then adjust the next joint for your ET maneuver and move the ship one time. You adjust the tool, move the ship, adjust the tool, move the ship. It is two separate actions. Otherwise you could use your regular maneuver and overlap a ship or obstacle, then use your ET maneuver without suffering the effects of overlap/ramming.

And Eastern, you are quoting when you use the Navigate command. That has nothing to do with when you determine course . The Nav command must be used during the Determine Course step. It does not dictate when/how the Determine Course step happens. If it is not used during the first Determine Course step, Engine Techs does not trigger, so there is no second determine course step. If you use your Nav command during the first one to trigger ET, you cannot use a Nav command during the ET determine course step because you have already resolved a Nav command this turn .

Lyr - You can spend a Nav command right up until the moment you slide the maneuver tool into the base. So you could adjust the tool, place it on the table near your ship, then decide you need the extra yaw or increase/decrease speed, then readjust the tool. G-8s can be used right up until the moment you slide the maneuver tool into the base. So I could determine my course and be about to move my ship, then you declare you're using G-8 to slow me down. I haven't slotted the tool into the base, so I can declare I'm adjusting my speed.

But you're right, and that's what I was going for. Like tractor beams, you force them to use a Nav command when they don't want to. Unlike tractor beams, you kind of force them to use a Nav command in the next turn, too, because now they have to slow back down.

Wait. You quoted the rules, but then added terms that weren't there.

The section you mentioned doesn't say anything about speed dials. Just speed.

There's also nothing in that section (or engine techs) that prohibit spending a nav command. If there was an ability that let you execute the same command twice, you WOULD be able to use it during an ET move. (Which is why that ability seems unlikely to be added...)

For your last point, generally those situations play out formally like: "I have completed my attack step. Would you like to make any actions before I start the determine course step? No, ok, now I have set everything, spent my nav command, and am about to complete the determine course step, would you like to make any actions? Yes, you want to resolve g-8? Ok..."

To be honest, I would like to see clarification on if "before resolving the determine course step" means anytime during or before starting as you can make a case either way.

To that last paragraph, Don, I think they left it fluid on purpose. If you're the maneuvering player and don't want to use your nav command, you just declare an end to the determine course step by putting the tool into the base. Your opponent can they interrupt and say they're using G-8, which means the step isn't over and you can still use a Nav.

If they didn't want it fluid like that, it would have been "Before a ship starts" or "After a ship resolves."