Well, I beg to differ. When the game refers to current speed, we can now agree it is the speed dial, as has been rigidly upheld in the FAQ. When the game refers to speed, it is utterly unclear. I'll direct you to Overlapping in page 8 of the RRG for a direct example of speed != current speed.

ET lets you do a Speed 1 maneuver : what you're basically doing is resolving a maneuver following the RRG steps by changing "current speed" words to "Speed 1". This is why you get to use the yaw value for speed 1, isn't it? This is the stepping stone of the logic by which "current speed" has nothing to do with the ET maneuver. Yet, "current speed" somehow affects ET when it happens to match Speed 1, but that was another battle.

G8 lets you temporarily reduce an enemy's speed by 1 during the determine course step. There's no reference to current speed anywhere on the card. You're doing a speed 1 maneuver, what is your speed?

Also, now that you've read the Overlapping section, answer me this one : what happens when you trigger ET for a double ram? Do you not temporarily reduce your speed by 1 to stay in place?

I feel like Gowtah hits the nail on the head here, pending the inevitable FAQ resolution in a few months.

Hmmmm it could stop the engine techs. . . I was looking at the perspective of dropping to speed 0 to stop the ET, but when they have to do a Determine Course step you lower their speed by 1.. . The question is which speed? The ships speed dial? If so it does not affect Engine Techs, or does it effect the maneuver speed?

Hmmmmmm I think the first one session the most logical though. . . Hmmmm

Speed 1, minus 1 (to a minimum of 0), equals 0. No?

Or am I being too simple-minded again?

Dras?!!!!

Speed 1, minus 1 (to a minimum of 0), equals 0. No?

Or am I being too simple-minded again?

Dras?!!!!

When the game references Speed, until further notice, except for the purposes of Overlapping a ship or obstacle the current rules ONLY discuss Current Speed aka Speed Dial. I'm serious. Every statement discussing speed refers to the current speed. Even Engine Techs phrases its movement different, making a speed 1 maneuver instead of a maneuver at speed 1.

I'm not saying G-8s can't be Errata'd or FAQ'd to include G-8s, I'm saying that until they do there is only one possible reading and that's referencing the Speed Dial. It's a non-starter argument.

This is honestly a good thing, because we've already come across a few weird interactions in Wave 3 so at the minimum these should hopefully be fixed together.

As a non-native english speaker, I'm curious, what's the difference between a speed 1 maneuver and a maneuver at speed 1 besides word order and a preposition? How do they differ on the board?

Now, could you please tell me what the difference is between the above two and Bright Hope's 1-Speed maneuver ?

I've made my point regarding the logic of it all, so I won't waste anyone's time about that anymore. The elegant solution to any ET/extra maneuver discussion is something like "For any card effect which gives an extra maneuver at a certain speed, consider the speed written on the card as your current speed for the purpose of resolving that maneuver, without modifying the dial."

Odd thought. Does this mean that using G8s on a speed4 MC30 will temporarily slow it to speed 3, but speed 4 yaw values used.....

That sounds painful

Dras?!!!!

Don't Look at me.

I'm not getting any more of this on me than I already have!

This can wait until November at the worst, because they may release an FAQ on release as it is...

As a non-native english speaker, I'm curious, what's the difference between a speed 1 maneuver and a maneuver at speed 1 besides word order and a preposition?

There is no difference.

As a non-native english speaker, I'm curious, what's the difference between a speed 1 maneuver and a maneuver at speed 1 besides word order and a preposition?

There is no difference.

And as a non-native english speaker, I think you know more about grammar from that one sentence than most native english speakers. Seriously. I know a ton of people who don't know what a preposition is.

As a non-native english speaker, I'm curious, what's the difference between a speed 1 maneuver and a maneuver at speed 1 besides word order and a preposition?

There is no difference.

And as a non-native english speaker, I think you know more about grammar from that one sentence than most native english speakers. Seriously. I know a ton of people who don't know what a preposition is.

There is a difference actually.

A speed 1 maneuver is done using your speed chart's 1 box regardless of what speed you are at.

A maneuver at speed 1 is done when your speed dial is at 1.

As a non-native english speaker, I'm curious, what's the difference between a speed 1 maneuver and a maneuver at speed 1 besides word order and a preposition?

There is no difference.

And as a non-native english speaker, I think you know more about grammar from that one sentence than most native english speakers. Seriously. I know a ton of people who don't know what a preposition is.

There is a difference actually.

A speed 1 maneuver is done using your speed chart's 1 box regardless of what speed you are at.

A maneuver at speed 1 is done when your speed dial is at 1.

Basis? Cause it's not a grammatical one.

And as a non-native english speaker, I think you know more about grammar from that one sentence than most native english speakers. Seriously. I know a ton of people who don't know what a preposition is.

This might have been a rhetorical question

There is a difference actually.

A speed 1 maneuver is done using your speed chart's 1 box regardless of what speed you are at.

A maneuver at speed 1 is done when your speed dial is at 1.

And this is what I was fishing for. What is the basis for your interpretation ?

Both are speed 1 maneuvers, both maneuvers are resolved at speed 1. Why are you talking about a dial? Where is the reference to "current speed"?

TCM does not affect ET because current speed != speed (well, unless current speed = speed). Now you're saying speed = current speed? I'm lost. Doesn't G8 speed = speed? Does G8's speed = current speed != ET speed?

And as a non-native english speaker, I think you know more about grammar from that one sentence than most native english speakers. Seriously. I know a ton of people who don't know what a preposition is.

This might have been a rhetorical question

There is a difference actually.

A speed 1 maneuver is done using your speed chart's 1 box regardless of what speed you are at.

A maneuver at speed 1 is done when your speed dial is at 1.

And this is what I was fishing for. What is the basis for your interpretation ?

Both are speed 1 maneuvers, both maneuvers are resolved at speed 1. Why are you talking about a dial? Where is the reference to "current speed"?

TCM does not affect ET because current speed != speed (well, unless current speed = speed). Now you're saying speed = current speed? I'm lost. Doesn't G8 speed = speed? Does G8's speed = current speed != ET speed?

My basis for my interpretation is the ruling we got from FFG regarding Thrust Control Malfunction and Engine Techs.

G8's effect current speed I believe. Though it is a temporary reduction so it is quite possible that it could hit the Engine Techs. It has to happen during the Determine Course step though which there is no clear guidance on if Engine Techs conduct a second test (though it might not).

With Engine Techs, you have to spend the command in the Determine Course step but can declare the use of the card after the maneuver.

G8's effect current speed I believe. Though it is a temporary reduction so it is quite possible that it could hit the Engine Techs. It has to happen during the Determine Course step though which there is no clear guidance on if Engine Techs conduct a second test (though it might not).

With Engine Techs, you have to spend the command in the Determine Course step but can declare the use of the card after the maneuver.

I've got nothing better than "lol, wut?"

For starters, I think we're not even arguing the same thing. All I'm saying is that you can choose to use G8 when your opponent triggers an ET maneuver, and that the wording should let it affect ET. Because if we're gonna get to the point where speed isn't speed only 83% of the time, where is it gonna end?

I'm not sure I get the part about a second test. Surely, when you decide to do an ET maneuver, the ET maneuver has its own determine course step? You do lay down the tool and decide where to go at speed 1, don't you? TCM applies during this determine course step, btw.

As for the last sentence, I don't understand how it's relevant to the matter. I haven't read the beginning of the discussion in the other thread, but if the idea was that using G8 against the initial maneuver would also affect the following ET maneuver, I don't see how that can be defended.

So if you use G8 during an ET maneuver, what speed do you temporarily reduce? Is it the current speed? Or is it the Engine Tech speed?

Remember that G8 happens during the Determine Course step. That is where you spend the navigation command as well. How can you effect the Engine Techs move when they have yet to declare it?

Remember that G8 happens during the Determine Course step. That is where you spend the navigation command as well. How can you effect the Engine Techs move when they have yet to declare it?

Every maneuver includes a Determine Course step

Every Determine Course step gives you the opportunity to spend a navigate command.

You can only execute a navigate command once per turn.

You can only activate Engine Techs if you've already executed a navigate command.

Therefore, every Engine Tech maneuver gives you the opportunity to execute a navigate command, but you are never allowed to take advantage of it because you must necessarily have already spent your single navigate command for the turn prior to being granted that opportunity.

This does not mean that there is no Determine Course step during an Engine Tech maneuver.

ET is a Speed 1 maneuver, G8 let's you reduce speed, I'll let you do the maths.

I've also just tried to explain yet again that an ET maneuver has to have a determine course step. I'll be curious to hear your explanation if you think you resolve an ET maneuver without a determine course step.

Guys

Shut the f*** up

You are repeating yourselves

Guys

Shut the f*** up

You are repeating yourselves

Chill.

The unfollow button is here .

Remember that G8 happens during the Determine Course step. That is where you spend the navigation command as well. How can you effect the Engine Techs move when they have yet to declare it?

Every maneuver includes a Determine Course step

Every Determine Course step gives you the opportunity to spend a navigate command.

You can only execute a navigate command once per turn.

You can only activate Engine Techs if you've already executed a navigate command.

Therefore, every Engine Tech maneuver gives you the opportunity to execute a navigate command, but you are never allowed to take advantage of it because you must necessarily have already spent your single navigate command for the turn prior to being granted that opportunity.

This does not mean that there is no Determine Course step during an Engine Tech maneuver.

So tell me this, how do you get to the second Determine Course step without having already spent a navigate command in order to activate Engine Techs?

You don't just "get" another Determine Course step. You have to have a means to conduct ship movement. You also can't activate Engine Techs without having already spent a navigate.

So really, unless you have already spent the Navigate command (and there are times where you spend the token but don't use its effect) during the initial Determine Course step, you can't activate engine techs.

ET is a Speed 1 maneuver, G8 let's you reduce speed, I'll let you do the maths.

I've also just tried to explain yet again that an ET maneuver has to have a determine course step. I'll be curious to hear your explanation if you think you resolve an ET maneuver without a determine course step.

Even if it does (and I agree it does), what speed is being reduced?

I am in the camp that G8 should affect an Engine Techs maneuver but it still needs a rational explanation.

The closest thing I can think of is how ramming works.

Dude, if you're looking for a rational explanation, make sure to read and understand the last ~30 posts, because that's where you will find it times and times again. Those last two posts of yours don't reflect too well on your reading comprehension.

Now I'm done having fun in here, because frankly, whichever way this goes doesn't matter.

If G8 can affect ET, then the Empire gets a mild counter to Demo rushing in to point blank from accross the board, I'm still annoyed that the rebels don't get such shiny toys, and I get confirmation that the way the speed/ET mechanic is worded/FAQ'd is a mess.

If G8 can't affect ET, it still affects the original maneuver and slows stuff down, we get a ruling which states that G8 can't temporarily reduce speed of an ET maneuver for whatever convoluted reason while an overlap forces you to temporarily reduce speed of an ET maneuver, I'm still annoyed that the rebels don't get such shiny toys, and I get confirmation that the way the speed/ET mechanic is worded/FAQ'd is a mess.

Remember that G8 happens during the Determine Course step. That is where you spend the navigation command as well. How can you effect the Engine Techs move when they have yet to declare it?

Every maneuver includes a Determine Course step

Every Determine Course step gives you the opportunity to spend a navigate command.

You can only execute a navigate command once per turn.

You can only activate Engine Techs if you've already executed a navigate command.

Therefore, every Engine Tech maneuver gives you the opportunity to execute a navigate command, but you are never allowed to take advantage of it because you must necessarily have already spent your single navigate command for the turn prior to being granted that opportunity.

This does not mean that there is no Determine Course step during an Engine Tech maneuver.

So tell me this, how do you get to the second Determine Course step without having already spent a navigate command in order to activate Engine Techs?

You don't just "get" another Determine Course step. You have to have a means to conduct ship movement. You also can't activate Engine Techs without having already spent a navigate.

So really, unless you have already spent the Navigate command (and there are times where you spend the token but don't use its effect) during the initial Determine Course step, you can't activate engine techs.

This was all laid out in the post you're responding to.

Getting this deep into the arcana of this bit isn't really relevant anyway, so I'm not going to go through it again. The only thing that's relevant to the question at hand is this:

Is, or is not, the maneuver granted by Engine Techs treated as a maneuver in all respects?

If it is, G8 can affect it, just as it can any other maneuver. If it is not, G8 may or may not be able to affect it. For the answer to that question, we can rely only on the RAW until the inevitable FAQ drops. Fortunately (or perhaps not so fortunately), we won't have these in hand for another few months, and won't have to worry about it until then.

Oh god, I just thought of another argument relating to ET.

Does General Madine affect the original maneuver, or the ET maneuver?