For which I apologise, and have been trying to be nicer...

... and still failing miserably...

I am a terrible person.

Canadian influence? Canadian influence.

No worries.

You see, naturally, I'm an *******.

Part of my time spend in the Air Force was as a Drill Instructor.

It was fantastic back then, but these days, Confrontation and I have a mixed relationship.

My natural, very-Australian based response is to be an *******, to rub things the wrong way, to generally be a bit of a sarcastic bastard....

... But that's because just about every Australian is like that. At least, Victorian, anyway.

But it doesn't go down well here.

No worries, doesn't bother me.

And I'm Stan/Eval in the USAF. Interpreting RAW and then shwacking people with them is my job as much as it was yours.

I'm inclined to believe (and this is really a faith thing) that because the G-8 is a unique card, and therefore deemed uber-powerful, that it does impact Engine Techs.

Opponent says "Okay i'm going to ET." You say "Ha! Ha! G-8!" Opponent says, "Darn!"

We will see.

It is an exhaust card, so at best you can pick to exhaust it on the normal maneuver or on the ET maneuver, not both, and ET are not effected by the ships speed, you can still ET at speed 0, so it is highly questionable if it is going to affect it.

, so it is highly questionable

The question is as I put it.

Is "Current Speed" the same as "Speed"

Its a simple question, but its laden with Intent.

, so it is highly questionable

The question is as I put it.

Is "Current Speed" the same as "Speed"

Its a simple question, but its laden with Intent.

Not in this context no.

Speed in context with Engine Techs is all about the speed shown on the card. Not what is on the dial.

Current Speed is related to your dial. A Speed and a Number (I.E. Speed 1) is based on the card.

Not in this context no.

Speed in context with Engine Techs is all about the speed shown on the card. Not what is on the dial.

Current Speed is related to your dial. A Speed and a Number (I.E. Speed 1) is based on the card.

That is your interpretation, for sure.

I shall reconvene in November to get an official answer.

Not in this context no.

Speed in context with Engine Techs is all about the speed shown on the card. Not what is on the dial.

Current Speed is related to your dial. A Speed and a Number (I.E. Speed 1) is based on the card.

That is your interpretation, for sure.

I shall reconvene in November to get an official answer.

Well it was proven when FFG made the call on Engine Techs and Thrust Control Malfunction. That set the precedent for the difference between Speed and Current Speed.

Well it was proven when FFG made the call on Engine Techs and Thrust Control Malfunction. That set the precedent for the difference between Speed and Current Speed.

Without saying that explicitly.

Honestly, I hope it stops ETs dead.

Hate those things.

I want Gravity Wells and Tractor Beams to be a goddamn thing ...

I'm going to have a bunch of Interdictors when I switch back to Imperials.

Well it was proven when FFG made the call on Engine Techs and Thrust Control Malfunction. That set the precedent for the difference between Speed and Current Speed.

Without saying that explicitly.

Honestly, I hope it stops ETs dead.

Hate those things.

I want Gravity Wells and Tractor Beams to be a goddamn thing ...

I'm going to have a bunch of Interdictors when I switch back to Imperials.

Dual Gravity Well might be a thing. We also dont know what else those gravity tokens do. What if they caused black dice to be rerolled when within X distance? That would be HUGE!

We also dont know what else those gravity tokens do. What if they caused black dice to be rerolled when within X distance? That would be HUGE!

I'm about 98% confident that's what the card I referenced here does. Interdictor picture bottom row second from the right.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/220510-wave-4-is-true/?p=2227440

My reading of G-8 is that is reduces the ship's speed by 1. Engine Techs allow you to perform a speed-1 maneuver, not a ship's speed maneuver. As such, whilst you can use G-8 against a ship making an ET maneuver, it will have no effect.

So the question imo boils down to: is the speed-1 specification of the Engine Techs second maneuver impacted by G-8. My gut reaction was no, but I think there's a solid argument to be made for yes.

Say you're making a normal speed 1 maneuver. At the Determine Course Step, G-8 decreases your speed temporarily to 1.

There is no difference in the Engine Tech maneuver, IF you activate G-8 during that maneuver and NOT during the first maneuver of the turn. You start executing a speed-1, get to the Determine Course Step, G-8 takes effect, and your speed decreases temporarily to 0.

Lyr, I think the disconnect might be in the timing that we're thinking for the G-8. I'm saying you may be able to use it on either the regular maneuver or the ET maneuver. It's not ET being limited by your initial speed, but rather limiting the speed of the second maneuver itself during the resolution of ET.

Sadly I disagree. Remember, Engine Techs has no limiting factor on what speed you are going. You just "Execute a Speed 1 maneuver"

If you are taken to a temporary speed zero you don't execute a maneuver so engine techs would't go into effect

If you are taken to a temporary speed zero you don't execute a maneuver so engine techs would't go into effect

Incorrect.

A Ship at Speed 0 on a Station, activates, it still executes a maneuver and ends on the station, and thus, gets a repair.

Even though it didn't move at speed 0.

From the RRG:

• If a ship executes a speed-0 maneuver, it does not move from its current position, but it is still considered to have executed a maneuver.

If you are taken to a temporary speed zero you don't execute a maneuver so engine techs would't go into effect

Incorrect.

A Ship at Speed 0 on a Station, activates, it still executes a maneuver and ends on the station, and thus, gets a repair.

Even though it didn't move at speed 0.

From the RRG:

• If a ship executes a speed-0 maneuver, it does not move from its current position, but it is still considered to have executed a maneuver.

If you are taken to a temporary speed zero you don't execute a maneuver so engine techs would't go into effect

Incorrect.

A Ship at Speed 0 on a Station, activates, it still executes a maneuver and ends on the station, and thus, gets a repair.

Even though it didn't move at speed 0.

From the RRG:

• If a ship executes a speed-0 maneuver, it does not move from its current position, but it is still considered to have executed a maneuver.

Which is why that crit that reduces people's speed and splicer tools will be HILARIOUS with DtO if they land on a rock and I get it

I mean... Yes, but if you got Comm Noise from an APT and they're at 1, they're pretty much toast anyway, because by definition they're at close range of an MC30. Things at close range of an MC30 at speed 0 don't live very long, asteroids or no.

If you are taken to a temporary speed zero you don't execute a maneuver so engine techs would't go into effect

Incorrect.

A Ship at Speed 0 on a Station, activates, it still executes a maneuver and ends on the station, and thus, gets a repair.

Even though it didn't move at speed 0.

From the RRG:

• If a ship executes a speed-0 maneuver, it does not move from its current position, but it is still considered to have executed a maneuver.

Which is why that crit that reduces people's speed and splicer tools will be HILARIOUS with DtO if they land on a rock and I get it

I mean... Yes, but if you got Comm Noise from an APT and they're at 1, they're pretty much toast anyway, because by definition they're at close range of an MC30. Things at close range of an MC30 at speed 0 don't live very long, asteroids or no.

Okay, let's argue about this over here instead of in the main thread.

So Engine Techs tells you to do a Speed 1 maneuver. It does not state "If your speed is above 0 you may conduct a speed 1 maneuver"

Page 11 of the RRG:

Ship Movement

To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment and place the ship by sliding its notches over the guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

Yep. Engine techs can trigger even on a 0-speed maneuver as long as a Navigation command triggeres it.

Speed in context with Engine Techs is all about the speed shown on the card. Not what is on the dial.

Well it was proven when FFG made the call on Engine Techs and Thrust Control Malfunction. That set the precedent for the difference between Speed and Current Speed.

I remember this discussion. And it is the perfect time for me to say once again that the ruling is stupid. Because speed in context with Engine Techs is all about the speed shown on the card, not what is shown on the dial, except when what is shown on the dial happens to be what is shown on the card with the TCM crit.

Following the inane logic of that ruling, G8 can interfere with ET only when the dial is otherwise set to 1.

Edit : hah wrote that without double checking the wording of the G8 card, it's even funnier with "speed" being used. Are we arguing that a speed 1 maneuver can't see it's speed being reduced by1? Without any mention of "current speed" on either card? This is gonna be fun til november

G-8 is pretty straightforward, i can't see any way that it affects Engine Techs.

The speed of the ship is determined by the player and shown on the dial:

Speed

A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial . A squadron’s speed value

indicates the farthest distance band that the squadron can move into.

• A ship’s speed is constant until the ship resolves a M command or uses an upgrade card effect to change speed.

G-8 Projectors can only affect the speed of the ship, and the Engine Techs card does not use the ship's speed to determine its effect. ETechs explicitly states that the player makes a Speed 1 maneuver. It does not alter the ship speed in any way.

Okay, let's argue about this over here instead of in the main thread.

So Engine Techs tells you to do a Speed 1 maneuver. It does not state "If your speed is above 0 you may conduct a speed 1 maneuver"

Page 11 of the RRG:

Ship Movement

To execute a maneuver with a ship, its owner proceeds through the following steps:

1. Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment and place the ship by sliding its notches over the guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

Yep. Engine techs can trigger even on a 0-speed maneuver as long as a Navigation command triggeres it.

There was never disagreement on this point.

The disagreement is over whether the speed-1 maneuver that ET triggers can be altered by G8 mid-maneuver in the same way that any other maneuver can.

The position I've presented in this thread is that the speed-1 ET maneuver is treated in all respects as a speed 1 maneuver, because there is no indication that this should not be true. It has been held to be true in every ruling FFG has made on this upgrade. If it is in all respects a speed 1 maneuver, then it should be vulnerable to G8, if the G8 owner exhausts the card during the execution of the ET maneuver ( not during the ET ship's normal maneuver phase).

I know we have some coders in this community--in accordance with the RRG and the wording on G8, this is what executing a maneuver looks like as a notional function:

def executeManeuver(myspeed,myship,opponent_taps_g8):
    
    #Determine Course Step Starts
    if opponent_taps_g8:
        course = determineCourse((myspeed-1))
    else:
        course = determineCourse(myspeed)
    
    #Move Ship Step Starts
    myship.move(course)

Both a normal maneuver and an Engine Techs maneuver call exactly the same function. A normal maneuver calls it with parameter myspeed = [ whatever speed is on the speed dial ]; Engine Techs is defined to call it with parameter myspeed = 1.

If the input to the determineCourse() function is changed by some other logic during the execution of executeManeuver() (specifically, if opponent_taps_g8=True), executeManeuver(1,"Demo",True) has still executed and fulfilled the terms of Engine Techs, even though you didn't end up moving speed 1.

Interestingly, this way of looking at it means that the ET ship will still have completed two maneuvers even if the ET maneuver was slowed to speed 0. This means if you were unfortunate enough to overlap an asteroid or debris before attempting to ET, you'd better think twice about trying to ET off.

the Engine Techs card does not use the ship's speed to determine its effect

Except it does in one case : if your ET ship has the thrust control malfunction crit and your dial happens to show a current speed of 1, you do reduce the ET maneuver yaw by 1, as per the asinine ruling in the FAQ.

I'm almost tempted to quote again the whole maneuver RRG chapter to try to show how stupid this is but I'll sit this one out. I'm quite curious how FFG is going to worm themselves out of that conundrum.

edit for the conundrum : if you're going speed 2, do an ET with the thrust control malfunction crit, and I tap G8 to reduce your speed by 1, we now have 3 current speeds : the untouchable speed 1 one created and used by the ET maneuver, the speed 2 one shown on dial, and the temporary speed 1 G8 one. Is your ET maneuver yaw reduced by 1?

G-8 Grav Projectors reduce your speed. Your speed is only found in a single place: on your ship dial.

Until they release an FAQ or Errata, there is no discussion. G-8 does not slow down Engine Techs because it is affecting a stat that is not used during Engine Techs. Instead, the maneuver used to execute the initial maneuver is reduced. Which is fine, as this potentially reduces the speed of such a maneuver enough to prevent the full effect.

the Engine Techs card does not use the ship's speed to determine its effect

Except it does in one case : if your ET ship has the thrust control malfunction crit and your dial happens to show a current speed of 1, you do reduce the ET maneuver yaw by 1, as per the asinine ruling in the FAQ.

I'm almost tempted to quote again the whole maneuver RRG chapter to try to show how stupid this is but I'll sit this one out. I'm quite curious how FFG is going to worm themselves out of that conundrum.

edit for the conundrum : if you're going speed 2, do an ET with the thrust control malfunction crit, and I tap G8 to reduce your speed by 1, we now have 3 current speeds : the untouchable speed 1 one created and used by the ET maneuver, the speed 2 one shown on dial, and the temporary speed 1 G8 one. Is your ET maneuver yaw reduced by 1?

There must be some other source, because the FAQ says nothing of the sort.

Thrust-Control Malfunction

An adjustable joint is a joint with a yaw value of “I” or “II”; a joint with a yaw value of “-“ is not affected. This card affects the yaw value printed on the speed chart; that value can still be increased by the M command or other card effects.

This card only affects maneuvers executed at the ship’s current speed (the number on its speed dial).

Engine Techs

When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the first joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the first joint at speed 1.

The FAQ points you pasted don't negate the fact that you should resolve TCM on an ET maneuver if your dial is on 1.

IIRC the ET faq point was added because people were arguing you were supposed do the ET maneuver using the yaw value for your current speed as shown on dial, because the RRG maneuver steps use current speed in the wording for determine course. Another spawn of the current speed dilemma.

But anyway here's the official reply :

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/200476-engine-tech-thrust-control-malfunction/page-3#entry2034539

The flaws in the logic are pretty much the same in all three cases.

Yes, a maneuver performed at your Current Speed, as shown on your Speed Dial, would be affected. It says that explicitly on the card.

Engine Techs can match your current speed and trigger card effects tied to your current speed when that is the case. But, it is NOT your current speed, as stated in the reply to the original question.

When the game refers to speed, it is referring to a specific stat: the speed shown on the relevant Speed Dial.

When Engine Techs triggers, it says "Execute a 1 speed maneuver."

Note something it does not say: It does not say that you execute a maneuver at speed 1.