The double contain tokens on the Interdictor are a bit puzzling to me. I would probably rather have any other token than a second contain. I guess if you really hate crits it's cool. Anyone actually excited about having 2 contains? I might just use Needa and swap one out.

Yeah, two Contains is...kinda crap. The one on the ISD is fine but I tend to not care about discarding it. Two seems like some pretty ridiculous overkill and, possibly, something that might be hiking its price up (even if just a little.)

I mean, it's hardly the cheapest base hull around at 90 odd points per ship before you even factor in upgrades.

Gives Needa something to work with.

Well, it Forces people to use Critical Effect Cards to do Face up...

Point being, most of the crit effects that are actually brought will generally be used anyway...because why wouldn't you when you paid points for them and they'll often have a better effect than the randomness of the damage deck (unless you absolutely desperately need that Structural Damage.)

... and there's possibility that one of those upgrade cards (The Ions) would exhaust an enemy upgrade Card...

Can't exactly trigger APTs on an Exhausted APT Card now, can you?

Edit: Also yeah, it seems like being exhausted doesn't prevent general usage, only that it cannot exhausted again therefore prohibiting exhaust-costs.

Gives Needa something to work with.

That said, I do like the look of the Interdictor, the sides being as powerful as the ISD is very welcome!

I think there may be some more upgrades in this wave that include some sort of token manipulation.

See, for example, that the Liberty pack comes with a contain token though the spoiled ship has none.

Maybe this will cause people to stop complaining about the lack of stuff?

I'm digging the Liberty as a nice distraction for my corvettes or shrimps to stab Imperials in the kidneys, but I need to know the point costs. Figured I'd get one and, if it is reasonable, perhaps a second or third. Love that Interdictor too! I'd imagine that it would be fantastic to keep capitals down so the Rhymerball can better position itself. Not sure If I'd go with two of them yet.

Out of town and away from the interwebz. Just logged in from my hotel to find this.

SHINY

Its interesting...

One of those Grav Well cards actually violates a Rule....

The rule is:

• During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects.

Setup includes everything from Objectives to Obstacles to Deploying Fleets, to Cleaning up everything to start the game....

Soooooo.

Golden Rule!

Upgrade Card Breaks Core Rules and is allowed!

It doesn't say "cannot." No Golden Rule, unless I'm missing something. Still a weird interaction, though...

Regionals now seem so...2015.

As an Imp player I think I feel a little slighted by this wave. Rebels are getting their own ISD clone that won't need an ECM to brace against a single accuracy, and the Interdictor does not seem to offer anything to help VSDs become better at protecting themselves. If anything it helps the Imperial blue-black lists do their job better , by immobilizing the target for Demolisher to crash into.

Indeed, Demolisher is going to be more useful now since the quickest way to stop the shield 5 two-brace large ship is to crash into the side arcs where it can't redirect well.

And if the Liberty ends up cheaper like some of my friends are saying, that just opens up some more space for upgrades to make it compete better with the ISD. Auto-include XI7s, anyone?

Regionals now seem so...2015.

It is pretty funny that the meta is going to completely change before Worlds.

As an Imp player I think I feel a little slighted by this wave. Rebels are getting their own ISD clone that won't need an ECM to brace against a single accuracy, and the Interdictor does not seem to offer anything to help VSDs become better at protecting themselves. If anything it helps the Imperial blue-black lists do their job better , by immobilizing the target for Demolisher to crash into.

Indeed, Demolisher is going to be more useful now since the quickest way to stop the shield 5 two-brace large ship is to crash into the side arcs where it can't redirect well.

And if the Liberty ends up cheaper like some of my friends are saying, that just opens up some more space for upgrades to make it compete better with the ISD. Auto-include XI7s, anyone?

Better yet, the tar trap lists that are designed to sink Demolisher/Clone5 builds just because they can...

Eeeh, I don't know about that Norsehound. It seems a lot of people are still thinking of the game as being Imperial vs. Rebel, but it's also blue on blue violence as well: An interdictor and gozanti combination has the tools to really cut down a Demolisher rush before it starts.

Demolisher might be more useful against Rebels, but perhaps less so against Imperials (in theory, of course and providing there's the Interdictor present).

I do think the Liberty will be a little cheaper, probably... what, the 90ish points? Large base, but only 3 native defense tokens rather than 4. One less squadron value at least. It's got only 11 shields (same as the MC30) versus 15 on the MC80, and some pretty thin aft, portm and starboard ablative magi-armour. It's got 2 black AA for the battle cruiser (usually the 'battle' version is more pricey, correct?) rather than black blue or double blue, and they're valued a little lower than blues. It's got a nice front battery but it's not really much more than the MC80 Assault, it's got one less blue on the rear, and sides equivalent to an MC80's fronts. The bonus of course is the potential to take gunnery teams and a yet unseen maneuverability chart that could potentially match an ISD. The turbolaser slot auto-include, well, remains to be seen given that the new stuff is speculation.

Eeeh, I don't know about that Norsehound. It seems a lot of people are still thinking of the game as being Imperial vs. Rebel, but it's also blue on blue violence as well: An interdictor and gozanti combination has the tools to really cut down a Demolisher rush before it starts.

Demolisher might be more useful against Rebels, but perhaps less so against Imperials (in theory, of course and providing there's the Interdictor present).

I do think the Liberty will be a little cheaper, probably... what, the 90ish points? Large base, but only 3 native defense tokens rather than 4. One less squadron value at least. It's got only 11 shields (same as the MC30) versus 15 on the MC80, and some pretty thin aft, portm and starboard ablative magi-armour. It's got 2 black AA for the battle cruiser (usually the 'battle' version is more pricey, correct?) rather than black blue or double blue, and they're valued a little lower than blues. It's got a nice front battery but it's not really much more than the MC80 Assault, it's got one less blue on the rear, and sides equivalent to an MC80's fronts. The bonus of course is the potential to take gunnery teams and a yet unseen maneuverability chart that could potentially match an ISD. The turbolaser slot auto-include, well, remains to be seen given that the new stuff is speculation.

Now here's where I get really confused... how the heck do Mon Cals name their ship?

The Liberty is an MC80 battlecruiser, contrasted with the assault and command variants of Home one. I wonder how many deadly adjectives they can come up with for MC80, since this probably means the "wingless liberty" is probably an MC80 of some kind as well: that means we need two more cruiser prefixes!

Its interesting...

One of those Grav Well cards actually violates a Rule....

The rule is:

• During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects.

Setup includes everything from Objectives to Obstacles to Deploying Fleets, to Cleaning up everything to start the game....

Soooooo.

Golden Rule!

Upgrade Card Breaks Core Rules and is allowed!

It doesn't say "cannot." No Golden Rule, unless I'm missing something. Still a weird interaction, though...

The Golden Rule has 3 Parts

First Part, is that the RRG Trumps the LTP Document

Second Part, is that Upgrade Cards can contracdict RRG Rules and get away with it. This is the part I am referring to.

Third part is Cannot is Absolute.

I do think the Liberty will be a little cheaper, probably... what, the 90ish points?

You underestimate the value of a double-brace on a large ship. I expect it to be 100+ points. Probably on par with MC80.

Just pointing out, since I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, the interdictor has a blue and a black anti squadron attack. For a ship I always envisioned as almost exclusively support, this thing is remarkably tanky.

Four blue/red from front and side hull zones, plus three out the back, isn't exactly lightly armed - technically it has one more dice than a VSD, they're just more evenly spread. Plus, in terms of shielding, it only has one less overall than than the VSD, and has two on that vulnerable rear.

Throw in the extra engineering point and the extra hull point, and that the expense you're shelling out for is mostly in awesome upgrades. I have a soft spot for the VSD, but this beauty will more than hold its own in a fire fight.

Exactly my point. I was expecting this ship to be only slightly better armed than a raider and with pathetic defense that made you want to keep it out of harms way, but with all kinds of support abilities. Powerful battery armaments, super anti squadron dice, lots of shields, 5!!!! Engineering and this thing actually comes across as a powerful front line combat ship before you even get to the support abilities. Not actually sure I like that.

You may have engineering 5, but you're going to need it! It seems...brittle. Which actually seems right on, for a combat capable support ship.

Eeeh, I don't know about that Norsehound. It seems a lot of people are still thinking of the game as being Imperial vs. Rebel, but it's also blue on blue violence as well: An interdictor and gozanti combination has the tools to really cut down a Demolisher rush before it starts.

Demolisher might be more useful against Rebels, but perhaps less so against Imperials (in theory, of course and providing there's the Interdictor present).

I do think the Liberty will be a little cheaper, probably... what, the 90ish points? Large base, but only 3 native defense tokens rather than 4. One less squadron value at least. It's got only 11 shields (same as the MC30) versus 15 on the MC80, and some pretty thin aft, portm and starboard ablative magi-armour. It's got 2 black AA for the battle cruiser (usually the 'battle' version is more pricey, correct?) rather than black blue or double blue, and they're valued a little lower than blues. It's got a nice front battery but it's not really much more than the MC80 Assault, it's got one less blue on the rear, and sides equivalent to an MC80's fronts. The bonus of course is the potential to take gunnery teams and a yet unseen maneuverability chart that could potentially match an ISD. The turbolaser slot auto-include, well, remains to be seen given that the new stuff is speculation.

Now here's where I get really confused... how the heck do Mon Cals name their ship?

The Liberty is an MC80 battlecruiser, contrasted with the assault and command variants of Home one. I wonder how many deadly adjectives they can come up with for MC80, since this probably means the "wingless liberty" is probably an MC80 of some kind as well: that means we need two more cruiser prefixes!

Well like has been said, the meta is going to be a howling mess for a long time.

Flotillas and fleet support interacting with the interdictor upgrades is going to take a long time to stabilise. If it does at all.

Liberty - gunnery teams, support teams, turbolasers, and ion cannons... good luck blocking this guy!

I like the look of the interdictors "Targetting ...." upgrade. Another very counter meta card.

Eeeh, I don't know about that Norsehound. It seems a lot of people are still thinking of the game as being Imperial vs. Rebel, but it's also blue on blue violence as well: An interdictor and gozanti combination has the tools to really cut down a Demolisher rush before it starts.

Demolisher might be more useful against Rebels, but perhaps less so against Imperials (in theory, of course and providing there's the Interdictor present).

I do think the Liberty will be a little cheaper, probably... what, the 90ish points? Large base, but only 3 native defense tokens rather than 4. One less squadron value at least. It's got only 11 shields (same as the MC30) versus 15 on the MC80, and some pretty thin aft, portm and starboard ablative magi-armour. It's got 2 black AA for the battle cruiser (usually the 'battle' version is more pricey, correct?) rather than black blue or double blue, and they're valued a little lower than blues. It's got a nice front battery but it's not really much more than the MC80 Assault, it's got one less blue on the rear, and sides equivalent to an MC80's fronts. The bonus of course is the potential to take gunnery teams and a yet unseen maneuverability chart that could potentially match an ISD. The turbolaser slot auto-include, well, remains to be seen given that the new stuff is speculation.

Re: Feeling slighted/feeling doom about the upcoming meta (specifically regarding Norshound's comment)

I strongly counsel patience on this one as earlier reactions to wave two, even the opinions held by a majority (or at least a vocal minority) here on the forums trying out their crystal balls, have generally been inaccurate. Does anyone remember the pre-wave-two Fireball terror threads? I do. You still see Fireball lists from time to time but they are not currently the meta breaking monsters many thought they would be. Same with Ackbar fleets, which were temporarily ascendant as well. For another lesson, look to the lowly Raider: even after it was released we had many people on the forum swearing up and down that it was an absolutely useless piece of garbage and then people started winning with it (specifically, clontroper5's Vassal tournament victory was the win heard 'round the Armada world). It took MONTHS after wave 2 was released, much less the time from which the Raider and its upgrades were known to us, for the community at large to come around on this single ship. We'll see how things actually fare on the table and I'm sure all of us will be pleasantly surprised at how things shake out. I know I have been with wave two, anyways, and I don't expect that trend to change with wave three or wave four.

Re: the Liberty MC80

I'm assuming it's in the ballpark of an ISD in terms of cost (probably a little bit less, similar to the MC80) but there's a lot of uncertainty depending on its nav chart and upgrade slots. It has less total durability than an ISD due to a less total shields (by 1) and less total hull (by 3). It does have the two Braces, which are nice, but it seems to me (could be wrong) that it's lacking a defensive retrofit slot for an ECM which can keep its one Redirect or green Braces available when it needs them. I will also note that Heavy Turbolaser Turrets are extremely legit against a Liberty MC80, especially once you start firing at a low/no shield zone as the dual Braces don't help as much as they used to - you ideally want to Brace and then Redirect damage off to another hull zone (particularly if you're getting attacked in the sides or rear) but you can't do both well at once, and those hull points will start going quick. If your opponent is running both Nebulon-Bs and Liberty MC80s, those HTTs are going to be earning their pay, believe you me.

Good thoughts Snipa. I think with Wave 3 as well there are going to be so many variables in play that making all or nothing predictions is crazy at this stage. Bomber commands, squadrons and dispersed lists will interact with these things completely differently.

I agree the liberty points something around 110 - its slightly less good straight up than an ISD2, but better than an ISD1 in some (not all) respects.

Aye, I know one local player bought I think 8 packs of R&V to get the YT2400 and Firesprays for the Fireball and Rogue fleet, but I've yet to see it used more than once. It certainly wasn't the be all and end all of the tournament it was in, and that player is very adept. It's something of a paper tiger. As for the Interdictor and upcoming Gozanti, I just think that it's a different set of tools that work slightly differently depending on which faction you face. We don't know the upgrades and we don't have much experience in all the ins and outs of the ships, so forming a final opinion is bound to be premature.

As for the Liberty price, it's highly dependent on the maneuvering table, but if it's like the Home one, yeah, I'm not seeing it. If it's an ISD chart it might crack a hundred. We'll see. I'll stake out 96 points. Why not. It's a blind prediction and that's some of the fun of these early threads! I expect a second to be higher honestly. (I have a 0-3 record on Armada predictions, I've got nothing on the line so it's all for fun).

But yeah, those heavy turbolaser options might start to look very tasty if these things start showing up in numbers with Nebulons.

Good thoughts Snipa. I think with Wave 3 as well there are going to be so many variables in play that making all or nothing predictions is crazy at this stage. Bomber commands, squadrons and dispersed lists will interact with these things completely differently.

I agree the liberty points something around 110 - its slightly less good straight up than an ISD2, but better than an ISD1 in some (not all) respects.

It's just going to depend heavily on its maneuver chart and upgrade slots. From what we've seen, it could be just a VSD2 with one more red out the front and two more shields shuffled around a bit. It could also be a murdery behemoth if it has good speed, good maneuverability, defensive retrofit, and support teams. I don't think either extreme is the case, but we just don't know yet: it all depends on The Rest Of The Ship that we haven't seen yet.

The admiral we can see in the interdictor picture (who is probably an officer upgrade) is quite possibly Bron Titus from Star Wars rebels, the guy was commanding an interdictor after all.

I hope that they take the spread that happened by accident and look at making 2 smaller waves every 6 months rather than try and make a big one every 12.

I hope that they take the spread that happened by accident and look at making 2 smaller waves every 6 months rather than try and make a big one every 12.