this happened today and we werent really sure how this should play out. i played blind submission and took the muscle with the sole purpose of getting it killed. which i did accomplish. but then the card text isnt a response or anything i could choose not to trigger. now i figured that since i control the card until the end of the phase i could then attach it to one of my characters, but then comes the attachment rules where if you on longer meet the requirements it gets discarded. so at the end of the phase i no longer control the card and now the 'attach to a character you control' part isnt being met. so we decided that at the end of the phase the card would just end up in the discard pile.

is the the correct way for this to be played out?

I will say NO.

1) You take control of Expendable Muscle.
2) He is wounded or go insane, you must apply its effect.
3) So you attach it to another character you control.
4) At the end of the phase, you don't more control the expendable muscle But the condition is always right (he is attached to a character you control), so you haven't to discard it.

Expendable Muscle
-
Type : Character
Coût : 2
Skill : 2
Icones : C
Sous-type : Servitor.
Descriptif : If Expendable Muscle would be wounded or go insane, instead attach it to a character you control. Then, Expendable Muscle becomes an Attachment support card with the text: "Attached character gains Toughness +1 and Willpower."
Flavor text :
Illustrateur : McLean Kendree
Info Collectionneur : APY F105

yes but i dont control the attachment/character i wouldnt think cause blind submission is until end of phase......thats the part were so unclear. i guess it could go either way. but id assume the attachments title is 'expendable muscle' and if thats the case i really dont control it, right? which would go back to the attachment requirement not being met.

My take on this is the same as Dadajef's:

As for the control part, you don't need to control it. Remember that you controled it until the end of the phase and the substituition effect kicks in while you control it so it becomes an attachment on your character. After the end of the phase, you lose it's control but still maintains attached to your character although controlled by your opponent.

The way I look at it is similar to the Legends of Noroth's game effect of "Shift" The old card effectively is gone, and a new card comes into play.

"Then, Expendable Muscle becomes an Attachment support card" I've highlighted "becomes" here to draw attention to the fact that it really seems to indicate that the card turns into a different card type. I'd say that durign the phase you control it the old card goes away, and turns into a new card, under your control. You then attach it somewhere etc" The blind submission is only targetting the old card.

(Still I think this should 100% be FAQed)

With the blind Submission there is may be the problem of gaining / losing control. At the end of the phase you lose control of the attachment called "expendable muscle" (it's no more a character, it's jut a support card). So your opponent gains the control of this support and must immediately attach to an eligible target (a character he controls) (see faq about gaining control). But in this case, like for my first response, the expendable muscle is not discarded, It's not a problem of requirement that is not met.

But I agree with KallistiBRC. The blind submission has targeted a character. The expendable muscle is no more a Character a the end of the phase, so you haven't to return the control.

Damned, not easy this situation !

I thought about this a bit more, dug through the FAQ, and came up with this:

(v1.0) Passive Effects
Passive effects are ongoing effects that are not optional, unless otherwise stated. Passive effects and abilities do not have a trigger such as Action:, Forced Response:, Response:, or Disrupt:

I think we can agree that the Expendible Muscle is a passive effect. The exact timing of it is a bit questionable. (For example, if he goes insane as part of a terror struggle, can you attach him to a character at that story as if this passive effect has the 'disrupt' or 'forced response' timing, or do you have to wait until after all the stories resolve, thereby making him kinda lame) Let's ignore that for now, and assume he was wounded by some action.

(v1.0) Replacement Effects (like Julia Brown)
The word “instead” lies at the heart of the replacement effect, as it allows the new effect to occur in place of the effect it is replacing. Therefore, the original effect does not occur, the new effect occurs instead

(v1.0) Simultaneous Effects
When card effects, passive abilities, or forced responses simultaneously affect multiple cards controlled by a player, all cards that are affected resolve in the order determined by the card’s controller, one at a time. The player must fully resolve each effect before the next effect takes place. Whenever a card effect affects both players simultaneously, the active player resolves his effects first. Whenever character or support cards enter or leave play at the same time, the controlling player chooses the order in which they enter or leave play. They are not required to follow the order in which they originally entered or left play.

I'm pretty sure these two paragraphs handle the issue. But an important thing to note here, is that these are actually not simultaneous effects. The important part is the "must fully resolve". They occur in this order:

a) character is wounded. We have to fully resolve this event before anything else happens. The event is wholly replaced by the replacement effect. So we must fully resolve the replacement effect.

b) the current controller (PJ) fully resolves this effect. The blind submission is still in effect as this card is currently still a character. Expendible muscle now attaches to a character the controller (PJ) chooses.

c) The target of the blind submission is now invalid. "Choose a character with..." So control would then switch back to the original controller.

If you take a look at the shotgun + disrupt example in the FAQ, it works somewhat similarly.

The end result is that PJ ends up attaching expendible muscle to a character of his choice, and then at the end of the phase, the control of the attachment switches back to the original. The character Expendable Muscle was attached to keeps the toughness and willpower, and stays under control of whomever controlled the character, even though the Expendable Muscle attachment is now controlled by his opponent.

You want some real fun? Consider what would have happened if PJ had taken control by Infernal Obsession....

KallistiBRC said:

Missed something here. When PJ's opponent gets the card back, it'll detach from whomever PJ attached it to since control switched. The original controller would then attach it to something which would get the willpower and toughness +1.

KallistiBRC said:

wait...why would it detach? I see no detach ability on the card.....

GrimWizard said:

PJ had taken control of the card through use of a card that only lasts until the end of the turn (or phase, I can't recall). So then control would then switch back to the original controller. And the FAQ has this rule:

(v1.0) Gaining Control
If a card effect allows you to take control of a card, move that card into your playing area. If that card is an attachment, immediately attach it to an eligible card you control. (If you cannot, then you may not take control of the attachment.)

So when he regains control of Expendable Muscle - Attachment, it detaches from whatever PJ attached it to, and now the new controller has to attach it to something. Note, if the new controller has no characters, he'd actually have to attach it to one of PJ's characters I believe. Neato.

KallistiBRC said:

hmm, what an odd rule. Generally card games aren't that forgiving to cards that attach to other cards.

the card is attach to a character you control so it would discard. also i dont think they would get to reattach it........how does repo man play???

PearlJamaholic said:

the "attach to a character you control" only applies when expendable muscle's effect goes off. Once the effect is resolved and it is an attachment, it not longer cares who it is attached to. Luckily, the gaining control rule that was previously quoted allows the original owner to take the card back and reattach it a new character. With Repo Man attachments can be moved from oppenent's characters to your own as per the Gaining Control rule.

from the faq.

"Any time an attachment has a
requirement that is not met, it is
immediately discarded from play.
For example, if an attachment had
the requirement “Attach to Servitor
only,” and if the card to which it was
attached loses the Servitor subtype, the
attachment would be discarded."

since the attachment is no longer controlled by the player that has it attached the 'attach to a character you control' part isnt being met.

yes but the problem is to know if with the blind submission, you return the control of the expendable muscle at the end of the phase. The blind submission says you take "control of a character". At the end of the phase the expendable muscle is no more a character; it's a support card. So I will say, you can't return a character to your opponent, so you return nothing. You keep control of the expendable muscle attached to your character.

PearlJamaholic said:

That's great, Except the requirement of "attach to a character you control" isn't part of the Attachment Expendable Muscle. It is part of the effect generated by the Character Expendable Muscle. The only text present on Expendable Muscle while it's an attachment is "Attached character gains Toughness +1 and Willpower."

GrimWizard said:

yeah i guess it isnt part of the attachment box. but then dadajef is could be right too.

i emailed ffg about this the other week and still no response. it would be nice to get a clear answer even though it now seems both cases would allow me to keep the card attached, but for future reference it would be nice since this is kinda a tricky play.