I hate VSDs... they are worthless... but i discovered something today and maybe this could work for wave 3 with all the heavy squad lists?

VSD with Warlord + Agent Kallus + H9 turbolaser

Warlord - While attacking, you may change 1 die face with an Acc icon to a face with a hit icon.

Agent Kallus - While attacking a unique squadron, add 1 die of any color to your attack pool.

H9 Turbolasers - While attacking, you may change 1 die face with a hit or crit to a face with an acc icon.

Typical Roll:

anti squadron armmament of 1 blue die - it's an acc.

add 1 red die from kallus - its a hit.

set red die to acc with H9, then set it to a double hit with warlord.

total damage is 2, plus acc vs a key unique squadron.

Now lets kick it up a notch with a banked CF token and a CF dial... now you are rolling 2 reds, and a blue... theres a decent chance you could do 4 or 5 damage to a named squadron (brace to 2 or 3) and maybe even another damage with ruthless strategists. you could even run with Quad Laser Turrets giving the VSD counter 1, in which you could do the same combo, and although quad laser turrets are kind of troll, maybe itll be worth it to hard counter the rhymer ball?

Verses non-named squads, you only get 1 blue die, but it will always be a hit, and again with RS, it could be pretty savage.

At a cost of 92 to 113 points, i'm not sure it would be worth it... BUT strategy would be to counter your opponents build by taking out one of his key squadrons (most squad lists have a lynch pin) and this ship could do just that. squad token to fly in a tie fighter, CF command to do 3 or 4 damage to Rhymer, he braces to 2, you RS for another +1 and rhymer is already at 2 hull.

and finally, the VSD wouldnt be completely worthless vs ships as it can use the same combo but with more dice.

Thoughts?

Keep in mind that you can modify only 1 die with Warlord or H9. So if you rolled a crit on a blue die and changed it to a hit, you can't modify Agent Kallus die at all. However a guaranteed double-hit is potentially scary.

I would also think about adding QLT to the mix, as both Kallus and Warlord/H9 will be applicable to every QLT counterattack.

Nice idea, I like it.

Do keep in mind that QLT really doesn't counter the Rhymerball, since it only applies at distance 1. Which is a ridiculous cap, that is only circumvented by Rhymer. As if he needed to be stronger.

Nice idea, I like it.

Do keep in mind that QLT really doesn't counter the Rhymerball, since it only applies at distance 1. Which is a ridiculous cap, that is only circumvented by Rhymer. As if he needed to be stronger.

I agree and believe this is the reason QLT and PDR are in the endangered species list. I would still use them in wave 3, given that there will be more rebel bomber-heavy fleets. Also it'll be useful even against Rhymerball as it'll force the opponent to constantly reposition his bombers.

distance 1.... ugh. forgot about that.

hmm... well maybe vs rhymer you'd need more, like mithel or ig88... which may not be a bad pickup anyways. and even if you cant 1 turn rhymer, i'd still count it as a soft counter? at the very least itll force them to move in a predictable location to avoid warlord. and vs anyone with escort (or without escort cover) they will definitely get 1 turned.

but as far as QLTs go, i guess they'd be much better suited vs b wings (which can get nasty if you fly into them)... but they aren't named squads so anyways and running QLTs would just mean they will attack your other ships anyways.... and i dont think its worth getting QLTs on every ship....

so QLTs is a bad idea....

EDIT: but b wings do have 2 dice, and with the new bomber rerolls, fireing QLT guaranteed 1 damage vs a b wing that is doing 2-3 damage to your VSD is probably a worthwhile trade on the b wing side of things... man QLTs suck.

distance 1.... ugh. forgot about that.

hmm... well maybe vs rhymer you'd need more, like mithel or ig88... which may not be a bad pickup anyways. and even if you cant 1 turn rhymer, i'd still count it as a soft counter? at the very least itll force them to move in a predictable location to avoid warlord. and vs anyone with escort (or without escort cover) they will definitely get 1 turned.

but as far as QLTs go, i guess they'd be much better suited vs b wings (which can get nasty if you fly into them)... but they aren't named squads so anyways and running QLTs would just mean they will attack your other ships anyways.... and i dont think its worth getting QLTs on every ship....

so QLTs is a bad idea....

EDIT: but b wings do have 2 dice, and with the new bomber rerolls, fireing QLT guaranteed 1 damage vs a b wing that is doing 2-3 damage to your VSD is probably a worthwhile trade on the b wing side of things... man QLTs suck.

In this one post you've laid out my entire thought process on QLTs within the 5 minutes or so after I read the card, hahaha. I really wanted the anti-squadron defences to be good, but... they are not.

but as far as QLTs go, i guess they'd be much better suited vs b wings (which can get nasty if you fly into them)... but they aren't named squads so anyways and running QLTs would just mean they will attack your other ships anyways.... and i dont think its worth getting QLTs on every ship....

I agree with the Majority of the Above...

But I do believe this point here is counter-intuitive with the point about B-Wings...

B-Wings are a Minefield. You Control which ship wades into the Minefield... If everything else is out of range, the B-Wings have a choice of Do Nothing or be QLT'd...

But, yeah. Is that a Good Deal for the B-Wings? Probably.

but as far as QLTs go, i guess they'd be much better suited vs b wings (which can get nasty if you fly into them)... but they aren't named squads so anyways and running QLTs would just mean they will attack your other ships anyways.... and i dont think its worth getting QLTs on every ship....

I agree with the Majority of the Above...

But I do believe this point here is counter-intuitive with the point about B-Wings...

B-Wings are a Minefield. You Control which ship wades into the Minefield... If everything else is out of range, the B-Wings have a choice of Do Nothing or be QLT'd...

But, yeah. Is that a Good Deal for the B-Wings? Probably.

yeah, thats why i added that edit just after i wrote that, flying into b wings is still a really bad idea... even in the best case scenario for the warlord + QLTs, its going to favor the b wings... or just about any squad for that matter! and now that i think about it, all the squads that QLTs would do well against usually have enough maneuver to pick another target...

but im gonna run a few games this weekend with this warlord and let you guys know how it goes.... point being a double hit red die vs squads is really good, but VSDs are just so bad in general, not sure if its worth it.

the magic number is 5 damage... and this warlord has the chance to do that 5 damage 2 red double hits and a blue hit would do 3 damage after it is braced, then another 1 damage from RS and you have 4 damage, combine that with mithel or ig88 as your tribute, the warlord could 1 turn a unique squad that is escorted...

to compare it to impetuous w/ ruthless strategist and mithel/ig88 (at blue range), it can do 5 damage as well (with highest success chance), and costs 58 points less.

obviously both ships have advantages and disadvantages, i was just thinking that maybe with the new wave looking at squads, these types of ships might actually be good?

but im gonna run a few games this weekend with this warlord and let you guys know how it goes.... point being a double hit red die vs squads is really good, but VSDs are just so bad in general, not sure if its worth it.

....

to compare it to impetuous w/ ruthless strategest and mithel (at blue range) does 4 damage total.

Yeah, adding a Red Die to Anti-Squadron is cool with Kallus, but unless you Concentrate Fire and add a Blue and Double-Acc, all you're doing is feeding the Bracemonkey...

That being said, feeding the Bracemonkey can be opportune

Well, Impetuous with Ruthless Strategists, and Ordnance Experts, and theoretically get to 6 Damage on its own, as long as someone else is nearby... Of course, that is braced down do 4 in the end...

Makes me wonder what the Damage output of a Raider-II would be in Comparison...

Black + Blue + Blue + Red (Assuming Base + Kallus + ConFire) = 3 Damage. + Ruthless 1, and then doing Black + Blue + Blue 1, then Ruthless... Yes. 4 Damage after Braces, assuming a Target with 2 Braces...

You add 2 more damage if you only have to block a single brace (like Bossk).

And that is IDEAL Damage, there is absolutely no guarantee you're able to Roll Crit/Hit, Acc, Acc, Hit/Hit on a Black, Blue, Blue, Red, in that order....

youre right, i didnt add kallus onto my original math with the impetuous II.... impetuous would actually be much more damage.

since raiders run loincloths on their hulls, and being the II, id assume youd rather fire from blue range, and you probably wont get much closer if your target is rhymer...

so Impetuous II + kallus + RS w/ CF

From blue range:

first shot: 1 blue base + 1 black kallus + 1 black CF = 2.0 average damage braced to 1 damage

plus additional 1 damage for RS

Impetuose 2nd shot: 1 blue base + 1 black kallue = 1.25 average damage braced to 1 damage

plus additional 1 damage for RS

= 4 damage average

From black range

first shot: 1 blue and 1 black base + 1 black kallus + 1 black CF = 2.75 average damage braced down to 2

plus additional 1 damage for RS

Impetuose 2nd shot: 1 blue and 1 black base + 1 black kallus = 2.0 average damage braced down to 1

plus additional 1 damage for RS

= 5 damage average

then add in mithel or ig88 and youre golden...

yeah, thats way better than the warlord... more damage, more reliable, and less points.

Even if we can get the math to work out, I'm not sure I'd find the VSD more appealing solely because of it. I really like the attempts to find some use for the anti-squadron upgrades, I just find them hard to use in general. If they are shooting at your ships, you're taking damage from those squadrons, which makes me wonder exactly how long you'll be around to use those upgrades.

Even if we can get the math to work out, I'm not sure I'd find the VSD more appealing solely because of it. I really like the attempts to find some use for the anti-squadron upgrades, I just find them hard to use in general. If they are shooting at your ships, you're taking damage from those squadrons, which makes me wonder exactly how long you'll be around to use those upgrades.

i've been stewing on it all afternoon and this is where i'm at with it:

Vader's Warlord: Wave III

really though, both the VSD and the raider have a really big problem of just falling out of the sky... VSDs are a whole lot of points not to have ECM... and raiders arent enough points to focus, but if they have a free shot, its a goner.

This game is all about high activations...vsds eat points for little reward.