It is an interesting take on the Jonus Bros.

It is an interesting take on the Jonus Bros.

It seems like one of the most consistent ion control squads out there. Two sources, both with rerolls and crack shot if needed. Not to mention if you are in the kill cone in front of Jonus you can get ion+stress very easily.

Triple Onyx w/ X-7 + hull: I've used these guys very successfully a few times now (and against some really strong players, since I am playing in the VASSAL league and I have the privilege of being in the Deep Core where some top players are hanging). Its a very good build, frankly. It has no bad matchups. I don't think Bio's criticisms are really that valid: 1) its damage output is not actually 'low' (it equals any imperial 3 ship ace list, although one ship is more likely to use focus defensively more often due to lower PS). 2) Pilot Skill 3 is good. Against Torpedo Scouts, you seriously do NOT care about who goes first. If the scouts do, then yes they can possibly block, but so what, because X-7 and also it makes k-turning easier and you can also arc-dodge (which matters!). And if your defenders move first, well, blocking matters a great deal! So its really win-win for the defenders here and while the scouts won't die quickly, once the torpedoes are spent, they become nearly harmless, since the only way they can make damage stick with their turret is at range 1 (and even then it will often bounce off your defensive tokens). This matchup favours the defenders, frankly.

I too really like the Onyx with the new titles. But Trip Onyx x7s means you need to buy 3 TIE defenders and 2 Imperial veterans!

I would also think Ryad with Push the Limit really wants Twin Ion Engine Mk II for clearing that stress. There are some turns when you want to be able to rotate 90 degrees.

I am leaning towards 2 Defenders + Carnor Jax. Carnor can shut down Scouts and help push damage through by preventing focus tokens from being used for defense. And a Loaded Carnor with Push the Limit or Predator, Autothrusters and Hull Upgrade or Stealth Device is 34 points. He fits in nicely with 2 Onyx x7s.

You give up an initiative bid, but you can still field 3 Red ships, and that is more important.

It is an interesting take on the Jonus Bros.

It seems like one of the most consistent ion control squads out there. Two sources, both with rerolls and crack shot if needed. Not to mention if you are in the kill cone in front of Jonus you can get ion+stress very easily.

Hmm...

I think that a 19 point Fleet Officer Scimitar Shuttle does as much for two Defenders as Jonus does, and it does it at better range. You could still do tactician if desired, but you could do something like:

Scimitar Squadron Pilot 16, TIE Shuttle 0, Fleet Officer 3, TIE Mk2 1 = 20

Glaive 34, Ion Cannon 3, TIE/D 0, Predator 3 = 40

Glaive 34, Ion Cannon 3, TIE/D 0, Predator 3 = 40

I too really like the Onyx with the new titles. But Trip Onyx x7s means you need to buy 3 TIE defenders and 2 Imperial veterans!

And the issue is???

why would you put PTL on a defender and NOT the Mk2 engines?

I understand Ryad can green Kturn 2-5 but that wont help if you need to turn a little and not k-turn.

A few things:

1) Ryad's ability gives you flexibility: you can go straight, then barrel roll or boost (or both) to keep targets in arc. Or you can flip and do the same. Its effectively the same as being a turret because you can point your guns in any direction on the battlefield at any time.

2) If you REALLY need to make a hard turn (and you are planning your moves in advance) then you don't have to use push the limit (although this will be rarely necessary, maybe once or twice a game if that). This is easier to do with X-7, since the 3 hard turn gives you the free evade.

3) Ryad with engine NEVER needs to bank. You just don't. Your straights 2 - 5 coupled with the occasional 3 hard turn are literally all she needs to face any direction and keep guns on target. A 5k turn + boost is effectively the same as a 1 bank except you are on the opposite side of your target, for example. Don't believe me? Try it and you'll see.

Yes it gives you more flexibility to aim at your target, but you become SO much predictable. And you basically have to use an action to turn/aim, which kinda defeat the purpose of PTL.

With Mk2, yes you need to be smarter and know where to go, but at least you can use PTL to TL+Focus.

You know, it's actually not that predictable. You get to K-turn from speeds 2-5, and there will be plenty of times where you didn't need to PTL the previous turn, and so have an open dial. You can still do 3-banks and 3-turns and get an evade, even while stressed. Those are good "bail out" moves, and you can then clear on a K-turn to get back in the fight.

The other is the old debate about the defender in general: you have a 4k white turn meaning youre predictable.

So what? I predict what my opponent is going to do all the time, it rarely changes what i was doing because if i change what i was doing something bad happens or i completely disengage and risk getting tailed.

Who cares if the defender is predictable if you keep putting your opponent in situations where they cant do anything about it anyway?

This reminds me of the U-Boat thread before they came out.. Where is their praise now .. I remember how they were going to be the best ever and break the game..

The other is the old debate about the defender in general: you have a 4k white turn meaning youre predictable.

So what? I predict what my opponent is going to do all the time, it rarely changes what i was doing because if i change what i was doing something bad happens or i completely disengage and risk getting tailed.

Who cares if the defender is predictable if you keep putting your opponent in situations where they cant do anything about it anyway?

If your straight maneuver is blocked, you can't turn it into a K turn. Also, Bombs are a pretty good reason not to make yourself predictable. Sabine's double damage bombs don't give a lick about your token stack, and the turret on the K-wing could give a goat's fart about your fancy arc dodging..

This reminds me of the U-Boat thread before they came out.. Where is their praise now .. I remember how they were going to be the best ever and break the game..

...you're kidding, right?

It's not exactly praise, but go ahead and start here.

Ugh. I actually did not think about 3 Onyx x7 with Hull. I think I'll try it.

I tried some combo of 2 Onyx and something else. Meh!!

--

Ayway, I tried whisper + 2 Onyx with x7 vs a Kwing and Wedge and Wes. Wow. NOW the Tie Defenders are serious small ship air superiority. Xwings are really not favored versus them.

Unfortunately, has anyone else run into this problem: The defenders have a "i hit you, you hit me" type of mentality, and that can be really easy to lose against a list with even more alpha strike, say a good Uboat player or ghosts. How do you usually deploy and go to first round of firing?

Also, what role exactly do these mid ps pilots take?

Vessery and Ryad are so cool, and can be so good, but they seem to be having a tough time vs aces and Large ships, who can take the brunt of their attack and fire back for crippling damage.

Note that my green dice have been pretty horrible as of late. Even with evade and focus.

Ryad especially seems to be a high speed, close range beatstick, with special advantages vs <PS4 ships.

What ships do you think have crippling damage vs an x7 Defender? 6 hit points behind AGI 3 and a couple tokens is resistant to a lot of damage, and Ryad's speed and maneuverability make it pretty tough for massed alpha strikers to draw a lot of arcs on her.

Ryad especially seems to be a high speed, close range beatstick, with special advantages vs <PS4 ships.

What ships do you think have crippling damage vs an x7 Defender? 6 hit points behind AGI 3 and a couple tokens is resistant to a lot of damage, and Ryad's speed and maneuverability make it pretty tough for massed alpha strikers to draw a lot of arcs on her.

I just made a topic about it actually.

3 Uboats of the 99 variants should have enough torps to not worry spending 3 to blow one up the first turn. Preferably a PS1 or PS3 Defender.

6 crack swarm will do the trick.

Gunner Ghosts

Ryad especially seems to be a high speed, close range beatstick, with special advantages vs <PS4 ships.

What ships do you think have crippling damage vs an x7 Defender? 6 hit points behind AGI 3 and a couple tokens is resistant to a lot of damage, and Ryad's speed and maneuverability make it pretty tough for massed alpha strikers to draw a lot of arcs on her.

I just made a topic about it actually.

3 Uboats of the 99 variants should have enough torps to not worry spending 3 to blow one up the first turn. Preferably a PS1 or PS3 Defender.

6 crack swarm will do the trick.

Gunner Ghosts

I even been experimenting with squads that have two TIE/Ds and a blocker, or a TIE/D, TIE/x7, and a blocker. I've found that after you absorb some damage (you just do everything you can to avoid multiple arcs), the control aspect of the TIE/Ds and or the toughness of the x7s make it much easier to deal with. Positioning, obstacles, and blockers all make it so you can really limit the number of meaningful shots the Jumps can get on you.

In fact, I've had x7 Ryad take down 2 Scouts with minimal damage on them, solo. Her tokens make it very hard for a single Scout to damage her, and her hit points give her time to finish one off. The variety of K-turn and positioning options make her hard to block. Once you get it down to 1v1, she's got it made against a Scout.

I haven't had quite as much of a chance to play against Crack Swarms, but tlast few things make these manageable. Between a couple Defenders, you can kill one before it fires. If you approach right, typically using asteroids, you can prevent to whole group from focus firing on one ship. This means that you rarely lose a ship, although one is probably heavily damaged. At this point, you have a major jousting advantage, and you can probably kill another TIE. Now it's 4 TIEs vs a Defender and maybe a blocker, but they are basically Academy Pilots at this point, and it gets a lot harder for them to do damage to you. You take some shots, but as each TIE dies, there are fewer left for blocking, and it snowballs.

I haven't had enough chances to run these against Ghosts, yet.

I'll take a look at the Defender again when next expansion comes out for them but I presently don't use them in my builds. I would rather use the TIE Interceptor or Phantom. We don't see many U-Boat builds where I play, mainly because of our arc dodging..

As usual, an excellently-written piece from the grand poobah of Defenders.

I've been playing around with the concept of a pair of basic ion/D deltas, and a pair of test pilot TAPs. Not going to be winning any PS battles, but I have found the TAP to be an efficient little bugger

I'm thinking of running VI Vessery as a companion to Inquisitor and Omega Leader. I'm tempted to go Tie/D with Tractor beam, but on the other hand, x7 allows me to put prockets on Inquisitor and Stealth Device on OL.

I'm thinking of running VI Vessery as a companion to Inquisitor and Omega Leader. I'm tempted to go Tie/D with Tractor beam, but on the other hand, x7 allows me to put prockets on Inquisitor and Stealth Device on OL.

I have played 5+ games with Vessery T/D and 3+ games with Vessery X7 and surprisingly and completely against this entire thread I am liking the X7 much better! X7 Vessery means you get maximum of only 1 target lock per turn but it is cheaper, you may have an evade token, and Vessery is much more consistent game to game. I have found that the T/D Vessery sometimes is a monster, and sometimes explodes right off the bat or is too target lock hungry and ends up hampering the performance of the rest of the list.

Currently play testing:

Vessery X7 Juke

Ryad X7 Push The Limit, Engine MK II

Shuttle with Palatine

i WANT the TIE/D but the Defender just falls prey to bad luck without an evade token. Soontir or Jax escape a lot of crap because theyre evading every turn AND focusing. Defender cant do that without the x7 title. Though i still wish i could slap Proton Rockets on them....one of the few ships i actually want that card on them but theyre so expensive i cant justify it.

TIE/x7 vs TIE/D is tough. I've messed around with two TIE/Ds and the control is awesome, but you're on edge a bit. The meta has changed a lot since when I was running double Defenders more seriously, and general offense, especially vs AGI3, is higher than it was in the fat turret met. It makes two TIE/Ds + a blocker pretty risky. If you can establish control and rip something up really fast, you're golden. If not, things can get tough.

With an x7 thrown in the mix, you still get some meaningful control, but you get a tougher ship opposite it. I'm loving Ryad in this role, because with PTL she can really slam those hits home now and with the short K-turning options she can stick to something at range 1 pretty well. She's mean.

You know what Crackswarms don't want to see? Ruthlessness /Ds.

You know what Crackswarms don't want to see? Ruthlessness /Ds.

Sadly it's pretty useless versus large ships. Still. Which I'm finding really hamper tie defenders. The larger base tends to block Kturn positions much easier.

Isn't that where Ryad shines. Pick whichever distance you need and...blammo! K-turn time.

K-turning around a large ship isnt easy unless youre right in their face. Remember you basically have to factor in a 3speed deadzone to clear them, so even ryad's 5-K turn wont clear a large ship unless shes really **** close to them.

She will clear them more than the others with their 4K turn, but i'd rather try and Kturn right in their face and have them fly over me.